What would you grade this 1940 WLH Proof?

Morgan13

jfriedm56

Proof(?) 66

PeakRarities

Pr67

hummingbird_coins

PR66+

Smudge

Pf66.

Morgan13

If you could add why you think it's the grade you believe it to be.
I myself think it's 67+ maybe 68. I'll take the heat. I would just like to have a better understanding at this grade level.
Full strike, nearly a mark on it especially in the usual places.
The only spot I can see is a line below the eagles beak.
I won't know what it is until it's in my hands.

TomB

Well, it's a proof, but beyond that guessing a grade is mighty dicey.

Grading these proofs depends largely upon the number, severity and placement of hairlines, which on coins like these can be notoriously difficult to adequately image.

MFeld

@Morgan13 said:
If you could add why you think it's the grade you believe it to be.
I myself think it's 67+ maybe 68. I'll take the heat. I would just like to have a better understanding at this grade level.
Full strike, nearly a mark on it especially in the usual places.
The only spot I can see is a line below the eagles beak.
I won't know what it is until it's in my hands.

A proof should be well struck and essentially free of any marks. It’s nearly always the degree of hairlines that determines the grade, and that’s nearly impossible to assess in images.

That said, I’d be surprised if the coin grades close to as high as you’re thinking. I base that on the large lighter areas in the right obverse field and because much of the reverse looks hazy and subdued.

CRHer700

What is this stuff?

Morgan13

@MFeld said:

@Morgan13 said:
If you could add why you think it's the grade you believe it to be.
I myself think it's 67+ maybe 68. I'll take the heat. I would just like to have a better understanding at this grade level.
Full strike, nearly a mark on it especially in the usual places.
The only spot I can see is a line below the eagles beak.
I won't know what it is until it's in my hands.

A proof should be well struck and essentially free of any marks. It’s nearly always the degree of hairlines that determines the grade, and that’s nearly impossible to assess in images.

That said, I’d be surprised if the coin grades close to as high as you’re thinking. I base that on the large lighter areas in the right obverse field and because much of the reverse looks hazy and subdued.

@Mfeld I don't want you to think I'm being disrespectful towards you. Looking at the PCGS app I see lots of 68's with their own issues. This one for instance looks pretty hazy as many of them do.

MFeld

@Morgan13 said:

@MFeld said:

@Morgan13 said:
If you could add why you think it's the grade you believe it to be.
I myself think it's 67+ maybe 68. I'll take the heat. I would just like to have a better understanding at this grade level.
Full strike, nearly a mark on it especially in the usual places.
The only spot I can see is a line below the eagles beak.
I won't know what it is until it's in my hands.

A proof should be well struck and essentially free of any marks. It’s nearly always the degree of hairlines that determines the grade, and that’s nearly impossible to assess in images.

That said, I’d be surprised if the coin grades close to as high as you’re thinking. I base that on the large lighter areas in the right obverse field and because much of the reverse looks hazy and subdued.

@Mfeld I don't want you to think I'm being disrespectful towards you. Looking at tye PCGS I see lots of 68's with their own issues. This one for instance looks pretty hazy as many of them do.

No disrespect taken - thank you. I certainly wouldn’t have guessed that the 68 you posted would have graded that high. Of course, I don’t know what either it or your coin look like in hand.

messydesk

Grading proofs from a photo is a fool's errand. If you tell me it's a 64, I'll say, "Huh." If you say it's a 68, again, "Huh." I'll guess 66 because why not?

Typekat

I would grade it in hand with a 10x loupe and a good lamp.

Otherwise, guess away!

Morgan13

The coin I posted is not graded 68. I believe it to be. It'd currently graded but in a holder known for ultra conservative grades.
I had a Morgan jump 3 grades from one of these holders. I realize that's not the case for all of them but I sure liked the coin enough to purchase it.

coinbuf

@Morgan13 said:
If you could add why you think it's the grade you believe it to be.
I myself think it's 67+ maybe 68. I'll take the heat. I would just like to have a better understanding at this grade level.
Full strike, nearly a mark on it especially in the usual places.
The only spot I can see is a line below the eagles beak.

I see a couple of minor spots on the obv alone and what appears to be stacking friction on the right (viewers right) breast. But that shiny whitish area in the right obv field looks very suspect, if that is a patch of hairlines then PR64 is the highest I could see. If that turns out to be a lighting artifact, then PR66 but that is where I top out at.

PeakRarities

@Morgan13 said:

@MFeld said:

@Morgan13 said:
If you could add why you think it's the grade you believe it to be.
I myself think it's 67+ maybe 68. I'll take the heat. I would just like to have a better understanding at this grade level.
Full strike, nearly a mark on it especially in the usual places.
The only spot I can see is a line below the eagles beak.
I won't know what it is until it's in my hands.

A proof should be well struck and essentially free of any marks. It’s nearly always the degree of hairlines that determines the grade, and that’s nearly impossible to assess in images.

That said, I’d be surprised if the coin grades close to as high as you’re thinking. I base that on the large lighter areas in the right obverse field and because much of the reverse looks hazy and subdued.

@Mfeld I don't want you to think I'm being disrespectful towards you. Looking at the PCGS app I see lots of 68's with their own issues. This one for instance looks pretty hazy as many of them do.

Finding an over graded coin in coin facts doesn’t mean that yours is a 68. Imo, that coin should never have gotten 68 either with that ugly black spot. With your coin, there’s no way that we can be that precise with our guesses. Grading proof coins from pictures hard enough, and at the 67/68 level it’s impossible.

Morgan13

@messydesk said:
Grading proofs from a photo is a fool's errand. If you tell me it's a 64, I'll say, "Huh." If you say it's a 68, again, "Huh." I'll guess 66 because why not?

I don't think your wrong but if the image is good enough some reasonable conversation can be had around a coin.

PeakRarities

@Morgan13 said:

@messydesk said:
Grading proofs from a photo is a fool's errand. If you tell me it's a 64, I'll say, "Huh." If you say it's a 68, again, "Huh." I'll guess 66 because why not?

I don't think your wrong but if the image is good enough some reasonable conversation can be had around a coin.

Reasonable, sure. The 67/68 line does not fall under “reasonable”, however.

Morgan13

@PeakRarities said:

@Morgan13 said:

@MFeld said:

@Morgan13 said:
If you could add why you think it's the grade you believe it to be.
I myself think it's 67+ maybe 68. I'll take the heat. I would just like to have a better understanding at this grade level.
Full strike, nearly a mark on it especially in the usual places.
The only spot I can see is a line below the eagles beak.
I won't know what it is until it's in my hands.

A proof should be well struck and essentially free of any marks. It’s nearly always the degree of hairlines that determines the grade, and that’s nearly impossible to assess in images.

That said, I’d be surprised if the coin grades close to as high as you’re thinking. I base that on the large lighter areas in the right obverse field and because much of the reverse looks hazy and subdued.

@Mfeld I don't want you to think I'm being disrespectful towards you. Looking at the PCGS app I see lots of 68's with their own issues. This one for instance looks pretty hazy as many of them do.

Finding an over graded coin in coin facts doesn’t mean that yours is a 68. Imo, that coin should never have gotten 68 either with that ugly black spot. With your coin, there’s no way that we can be that precise with our guesses. Grading proof coins from pictures hard enough, and at the 67/68 level it’s impossible.

Dan it's all in good fun. I'm not taking it to serious. It's really good to get feedback from people who have decades of experience. This is one way I enjoy this forum. I think this coin is special so I thought I would develop a discussion around it.

MFeld

@Morgan13 said:

@messydesk said:
Grading proofs from a photo is a fool's errand. If you tell me it's a 64, I'll say, "Huh." If you say it's a 68, again, "Huh." I'll guess 66 because why not?

I don't think your wrong but if the image is good enough some reasonable conversation can be had around a coin.

Reasonable conversation is a far cry from providing a meaningful or precise grade guess.

PeakRarities

@Morgan13 said:

@PeakRarities said:

@Morgan13 said:

@MFeld said:

@Morgan13 said:
If you could add why you think it's the grade you believe it to be.
I myself think it's 67+ maybe 68. I'll take the heat. I would just like to have a better understanding at this grade level.
Full strike, nearly a mark on it especially in the usual places.
The only spot I can see is a line below the eagles beak.
I won't know what it is until it's in my hands.

A proof should be well struck and essentially free of any marks. It’s nearly always the degree of hairlines that determines the grade, and that’s nearly impossible to assess in images.

That said, I’d be surprised if the coin grades close to as high as you’re thinking. I base that on the large lighter areas in the right obverse field and because much of the reverse looks hazy and subdued.

@Mfeld I don't want you to think I'm being disrespectful towards you. Looking at the PCGS app I see lots of 68's with their own issues. This one for instance looks pretty hazy as many of them do.

Finding an over graded coin in coin facts doesn’t mean that yours is a 68. Imo, that coin should never have gotten 68 either with that ugly black spot. With your coin, there’s no way that we can be that precise with our guesses. Grading proof coins from pictures hard enough, and at the 67/68 level it’s impossible.

Dan it's all in good fun. I'm not taking it to serious. It's really good to get feedback from people who have decades of experience. This is one way I enjoy this forum. I think this coin is special so I thought I would develop a discussion around it.

It looks like a nice coin, and if I saw it in hand I’d tell you if it had a shot at 68. Likely, no. To get a pr68 you really want either a perfect white coin with no flaws, OR a 67 with a lot of that iridescent blue color.

Morgan13

Well I guess I made a mistake then.
Seems like we discuss coin grading often here.
I dont know why if I post a coin it's a problem.
I gave my opinion. I heard other people's opinion and offered no argument. I'm not some Johnny come lately who has blossomed into some know it all.
I'll stay humble and learn until I've been at it for 20 years.

Walkerfan

66

BillJones

One thing I learned about Proof coins, especially the pieces from the 1936 to 1942 era was that you had to see them in person to decide if their are desirable. You can't grade them from photos most of the the time, unless they are really messed up. The haze you so on this piece is from the celluloid sleeves in which the mint sold them. If they remained in the those devices for an extended period of time, they became hazy.

That can be a good or bad thing. If it's light, it's good thing because it's a sign of original surfaces. But if it gets too heavy, it interferes with the Proof mirrors and brings down the value of the piece.

I saw a couple of black marks on this piece and some small marks. That excluded any claim to a near impossible grade like PR-68 or even 67. I could see the number ending up at somewhere between PR-64 and 66.

NGC called this 1942 half dollar a PR-67. You can agree or disagree with that, but the surfaces are original.

This 1936 Proof half dollar is PCGS graded PR-66. It too has not been dipped, but the haze is much lighter.

MFeld

@Morgan13 said:
Well I guess I made a mistake then.
Seems like we discuss coin grading often here.
I dint know why if I post a coin it's a problem.
I gave my opinion. I heard other people's opinion and offered no argument. I'm not some Johnny come lately who has blossomed into some know it all.
I'll stay humble and learn until I've been at it for 20 years.

No one said it was a problem for you to post a coin here. A number of us have commented that Proofs don’t lend themselves to meaningful grading based on images. And it’s not just your Proof coin in this thread that has received such comments. Some of us have said the same thing in many threads started by multiple other forum members.

All in all, it seems to me that your thread has generated a good discussion.

FlyingAl

Once you see enough of these, the best you can do from images is find how each grade has a certain “look” to them from the images. It’s a far cry from being able to accurately predict grade, but you can get close.

The OP seems accurately graded at 66.

PeakRarities

@Morgan13 said:
Well I guess I made a mistake then.
Seems like we discuss coin grading often here.
I dint know why if I post a coin it's a problem.
I gave my opinion. I heard other people's opinion and offered no argument. I'm not some Johnny come lately who has blossomed into some know it all.
I'll stay humble and learn until I've been at it for 20 years.

?

I don't understand the sentiment of your comment. We gave you our best guesses, and I was just saying its impossible to tell the difference between Pr67 and pr68 in pictures. No one was arguing with you, or telling you its a problem. The latter half of your comment seems like a dig at me, but I'm not sure why, as all I did was give you my best estimate based on the images provided. Moving forward, I'll refrain from contributing to your posts.

davewesen

When you have it in hand, describe what is in the area above GOD on the obverse. Is it die polish going up and down or some hairlines? It does not look like radial metal flow.

What is the light green area on the center of the reverse on the eagle feathers? Is it toning or early or light pvc reactions?

Some people pay a premium for the NGC no line gold embossed on reverse slabs.

You are either brave or inexperienced buying proof coins from pics expecting an upgrade unless you can see hairlines the camera does not show.

JCH22

Omar coming?

Typekat

OP runs GTG on a ‘66’ coin
discussion follows
avg. guess: 66+
…what’s the ‘problem’?

Morgan13

@PeakRarities I don't throw digs out there. In fact I dislike when I see it being done to others.
I consider you to be a positive member of this forum.
I enjoy your responses and respect your opinion.
My comment was directed at me. I expect that I will still be learning about coins and grading for at least 20 years. My grading skills have improved tremendously due to this forum and people like you in the short time I've been here.
How many people have we seen come and go who thought they knew everything
. (Johnny come lately)
So no disrespect meant. I am looking to make friends here not enemies.
I try to stay humble and listen and learn. All for free!
As far as this coin goes I still believe it's a 67+ but I may be wrong.. probably never know because it's staying in this beautiful holder and will go for a sticker instead.

Morgan13

@davewesen said:
When you have it in hand, describe what is in the area above GOD on the obverse. Is it die polish going up and down or some hairlines? It does not look like radial metal flow.

What is the light green area on the center of the reverse on the eagle feathers? Is it toning or early or light pvc reactions?

Some people pay a premium for the NGC no line gold embossed on reverse slabs.

You are either brave or inexperienced buying proof coins from pics expecting an upgrade unless you can see hairlines the camera does not show.

This coin was a good purchase for the slabbed grade. So being brave was not necessary.

BUFFNIXX

proof sixty five plus

Walkerfan

@Morgan13 said:
As far as this coin goes I still believe it's a 67+ but I may be wrong.. probably never know because it's staying in this beautiful holder and will go for a sticker instead.

Definitely a smart move. The NGC 3.0 is a very desirable holder and is my personal favorite.

davewesen

Good luck getting a gold sticker ++++

PeakRarities

@Morgan13 said:
@PeakRarities I don't throw digs out there. In fact I dislike when I see it being done to others.
I consider you to be a positive member of this forum.
I enjoy your responses and respect your opinion.
My comment was directed at me. I expect that I will still be learning about coins and grading for at least 20 years. My grading skills have improved tremendously due to this forum and people like you in the short time I've been here.
How many people have we seen come and go who thought they knew everything
. (Johnny come lately)
So no disrespect meant. I am looking to make friends here not enemies.
I try to stay humble and listen and learn. All for free!
As far as this coin goes I still believe it's a 67+ but I may be wrong.. probably never know because it's staying in this beautiful holder and will go for a sticker instead.

If that's the case, then my apologies for misinterpreting. I felt that you did not like what I had to say, so I was offering to keep my opinions to myself concerning your posts. Now that I understand what you meant, I'll continue to give my feedback whenever I can, if that's ok.

I was just confused why it appeared that you took umbrage, and perhaps its the fact that there's no context or tone of voice when communicating via text.

The best way to learn is to submit coins for grading and stickering yourself, which will either validate your opinion or show you what you might have been missing. I would indeed send to CAC first, and if you get a gold sticker, I will be thrilled for you when i see it posted. My first impression of the coin was 67, so I did not think you were way off at all. I was just saying that making a 68 is TOUGH, I've made several attempts with some really nice coins and have not been successful. If you get a green sticker, that will still be a very nice compliment to the coin in that holder.