Makes sense. And ALL of this could be cleared up if CACG would just admit that by stating what their standards are for slabbing "accurately graded C coins".
Unfortunately, the ABC thing has really spiraled out of control. Here's the thing. There is no such thing as a C coin. They are grading based on their unpublished grading standards, and CAC always stickered the same way.
The ABC scale was an attempt to explain the process to the laymen and to not broadly insult a huge swath of coins that JA believed were incorrectly graded. (Coins not stickered by JA but that nonetheless are owned by his clients and others).
If you ignore the ABC completely it will make this a lot easier.
I'm ok with that explanation. But again, CAC claims C coins are "accurately graded". They need to stop saying that. This is the transparency issue people like me keep bringing up.
What's frustrating is we're supposed to "wink, wink" know what CACG is really doing and ignore what they're saying.
I'll make it even simpler so we can drive a stake through the heart of this meaningless forum topic once and for all, and there is some common ground. I agree that its confusing and it doesn't fit well as it relates to CACG, but I feel like you might feel less strongly about once you finally realize theres no such thing as C coins. I will spoon feed it, if you don't get it now I'm afraid there's no hope...
Picture JA in a dark room under a grading lamp, unpacking a group of coins. Picks one up, rotates well under the light until he can make the call.
1."Do I like the coin is a 64? Yes, green sticker.
2. Do I like this coin as a 65? No..
3. Do i like this coin as a 63? Wow, this is a great 64. (Could be even better- gold sticker
Little Billy the YN asks JA why his "Gem" Walker didnt sticker at the Tampa, and instead of saying "Well Billy, your coin is an overgraded cat turd", he says "Well Billy it was a C coin, it just didnt make the cut".
By doing so he accomplishes-
Not making Billy (or the middle aged collector) cry.
Not Firing shots at companies who, at the time he could not disparage their grading publicly.
An palatable PR blanket statement simplifies things for easy digestion.
I can assume he probably didn't think much of it at the time, and would have known it would come back to bite him, the the landscape has changed while the wensite FAQ does not. Perhaps some might use ABC in their thought process, but that's definitely not how graders are taught.
It's not a conspiracy, and there's no "wink, wink", and no one cares accept for a select few people, because they feel like they've been lied to, when the fact of the matter was that it was a cute little child's tale that doesn't make sense anymore. If anything it would be a white lie. It's not exactly, because it's an inneficient way to explain the thought process, but its a relatively efficient way to compare the scale. It doesnt bode well now that jig is up, and the "C coins" can't conveniently be lumped together to keep an interview shorter.
Keep in mind that John Butler @JohnBCoins , who is also an decades long, expert-level grader who may or may not comment, but he would tell you the same thing that I am. John doesn't have to tell little Billy that his coin is an overgraded cat turd despite the fact that he grades coins the same way that all graders grade, because the coin came back in a 58+ holder.
I'm not trying to fan any flames or be difficult and I can be a bit dense. What you mean when you say there's no such thing as C coins? Are you missing a qualifier in that statement? Do you mean there's no CACG holdered (or stickered) C coins? From the CAC FAQ:
Surely you're not contesting the information here that for years dealers and collectors referred to some coins as C coins and C coins are just a myth that dealers and collectors discuss?
Don't call me Shirley.
And yes, there is no such thing as C coins and never were. It was a short hand that JA used to explain the concept behind CAC Stickering to collectors without alienating the entire coin collecting community by deeming some coins, in his opinion, crap.
ABC unfortunately stuck around but it's not a grading strategy or the basis for any grades.
CAC will sticker coins that JA feels are appropriately graded by his standards and that he would be willing to buy sight unseen for market prices.
For CACG, the concept is similar but C coins are even more nonsensical because there is no longer a reference point of a P or N grade. There is only CACG 's opinion of what a coin's grade is; that may be similar, higher, or lower than anyone else's grade, it's simply their opinion just like every other TPG holdered coin.
Um, OK, I don't think that means they don't exist but I'm not going to belabor the point.
Makes sense. And ALL of this could be cleared up if CACG would just admit that by stating what their standards are for slabbing "accurately graded C coins".
Unfortunately, the ABC thing has really spiraled out of control. Here's the thing. There is no such thing as a C coin. They are grading based on their unpublished grading standards, and CAC always stickered the same way.
The ABC scale was an attempt to explain the process to the laymen and to not broadly insult a huge swath of coins that JA believed were incorrectly graded. (Coins not stickered by JA but that nonetheless are owned by his clients and others).
If you ignore the ABC completely it will make this a lot easier.
I'm ok with that explanation. But again, CAC claims C coins are "accurately graded". They need to stop saying that. This is the transparency issue people like me keep bringing up.
What's frustrating is we're supposed to "wink, wink" know what CACG is really doing and ignore what they're saying.
I'll make it even simpler so we can drive a stake through the heart of this meaningless forum topic once and for all, and there is some common ground. I agree that its confusing and it doesn't fit well as it relates to CACG, but I feel like you might feel less strongly about once you finally realize theres no such thing as C coins. I will spoon feed it, if you don't get it now I'm afraid there's no hope...
Picture JA in a dark room under a grading lamp, unpacking a group of coins. Picks one up, rotates well under the light until he can make the call.
1."Do I like the coin is a 64? Yes, green sticker.
2. Do I like this coin as a 65? No..
3. Do i like this coin as a 63? Wow, this is a great 64. (Could be even better- gold sticker
Little Billy the YN asks JA why his "Gem" Walker didnt sticker at the Tampa, and instead of saying "Well Billy, your coin is an overgraded cat turd", he says "Well Billy it was a C coin, it just didnt make the cut".
By doing so he accomplishes-
Not making Billy (or the middle aged collector) cry.
Not Firing shots at companies who, at the time he could not disparage their grading publicly.
An palatable PR blanket statement simplifies things for easy digestion.
I can assume he probably didn't think much of it at the time, and would have known it would come back to bite him, the the landscape has changed while the wensite FAQ does not. Perhaps some might use ABC in their thought process, but that's definitely not how graders are taught.
It's not a conspiracy, and there's no "wink, wink", and no one cares accept for a select few people, because they feel like they've been lied to, when the fact of the matter was that it was a cute little child's tale that doesn't make sense anymore. If anything it would be a white lie. It's not exactly, because it's an inneficient way to explain the thought process, but its a relatively efficient way to compare the scale. It doesnt bode well now that jig is up, and the "C coins" can't conveniently be lumped together to keep an interview shorter.
Keep in mind that John Butler @JohnBCoins , who is also an decades long, expert-level grader who may or may not comment, but he would tell you the same thing that I am. John doesn't have to tell little Billy that his coin is an overgraded cat turd despite the fact that he grades coins the same way that all graders grade, because the coin came back in a 58+ holder.
I'm not trying to fan any flames or be difficult and I can be a bit dense. What you mean when you say there's no such thing as C coins? Are you missing a qualifier in that statement? Do you mean there's no CACG holdered (or stickered) C coins? From the CAC FAQ:
Surely you're not contesting the information here that for years dealers and collectors referred to some coins as C coins and C coins are just a myth that dealers and collectors discuss?
Don't call me Shirley.
And yes, there is no such thing as C coins and never were. It was a short hand that JA used to explain the concept behind CAC Stickering to collectors without alienating the entire coin collecting community by deeming some coins, in his opinion, crap.
ABC unfortunately stuck around but it's not a grading strategy or the basis for any grades.
CAC will sticker coins that JA feels are appropriately graded by his standards and that he would be willing to buy sight unseen for market prices.
For CACG, the concept is similar but C coins are even more nonsensical because there is no longer a reference point of a P or N grade. There is only CACG 's opinion of what a coin's grade is; that may be similar, higher, or lower than anyone else's grade, it's simply their opinion just like every other TPG holdered coin.
Um, OK, I don't think that means they don't exist but I'm not going to belabor the point.
They exist, but not in the CAC or CACG grading room, put it that way.
@coinbuf said:
Goodness five pages of nonsense from a couple of trolls with private profiles to hide behind asking for (actually demanding) clarity, full disclosure, and transparency. How ironic.
Questioning the graders is not nonsense when a grade bump can take a ten thousand dollar coin to six figures. When David Hall left CU, it was revealed that a relative (unidentified) was a major submitter to PCGS. Is that a potential conflict?
D Hansen has a position in CACG. Is it a majority? Could it affect the grades he receives on his massive collection? Hope not.
What about DLRC which he is a principal in? And Does John Feigenbaum who I believe is still in control of Greysheet, does he still hold an interest in DLRC which his father founded, or CACG?
Good stuff to know, or you can just blindly trust the plastic.
Then why are you and your trolling buddy @JCH22 hiding behind your private profiles while demanding transparency, or are we just supposed to trust that you are the "good" guys. I remember your now banned previous Glicker name, but I sure don't recall that you were an asset to the forum then and I'm not seeing much of an asset now either. Perhaps you both would like to come clean and be transparent on your agendas.
Makes sense. And ALL of this could be cleared up if CACG would just admit that by stating what their standards are for slabbing "accurately graded C coins".
Unfortunately, the ABC thing has really spiraled out of control. Here's the thing. There is no such thing as a C coin. They are grading based on their unpublished grading standards, and CAC always stickered the same way.
The ABC scale was an attempt to explain the process to the laymen and to not broadly insult a huge swath of coins that JA believed were incorrectly graded. (Coins not stickered by JA but that nonetheless are owned by his clients and others).
If you ignore the ABC completely it will make this a lot easier.
I'm ok with that explanation. But again, CAC claims C coins are "accurately graded". They need to stop saying that. This is the transparency issue people like me keep bringing up.
What's frustrating is we're supposed to "wink, wink" know what CACG is really doing and ignore what they're saying.
I'll make it even simpler so we can drive a stake through the heart of this meaningless forum topic once and for all, and there is some common ground. I agree that its confusing and it doesn't fit well as it relates to CACG, but I feel like you might feel less strongly about once you finally realize theres no such thing as C coins. I will spoon feed it, if you don't get it now I'm afraid there's no hope...
Picture JA in a dark room under a grading lamp, unpacking a group of coins. Picks one up, rotates well under the light until he can make the call.
1."Do I like the coin is a 64? Yes, green sticker.
2. Do I like this coin as a 65? No..
3. Do i like this coin as a 63? Wow, this is a great 64. (Could be even better- gold sticker
Little Billy the YN asks JA why his "Gem" Walker didnt sticker at the Tampa, and instead of saying "Well Billy, your coin is an overgraded cat turd", he says "Well Billy it was a C coin, it just didnt make the cut".
By doing so he accomplishes-
Not making Billy (or the middle aged collector) cry.
Not Firing shots at companies who, at the time he could not disparage their grading publicly.
An palatable PR blanket statement simplifies things for easy digestion.
I can assume he probably didn't think much of it at the time, and would have known it would come back to bite him, the the landscape has changed while the wensite FAQ does not. Perhaps some might use ABC in their thought process, but that's definitely not how graders are taught.
It's not a conspiracy, and there's no "wink, wink", and no one cares accept for a select few people, because they feel like they've been lied to, when the fact of the matter was that it was a cute little child's tale that doesn't make sense anymore. If anything it would be a white lie. It's not exactly, because it's an inneficient way to explain the thought process, but its a relatively efficient way to compare the scale. It doesnt bode well now that jig is up, and the "C coins" can't conveniently be lumped together to keep an interview shorter.
Keep in mind that John Butler @JohnBCoins , who is also an decades long, expert-level grader who may or may not comment, but he would tell you the same thing that I am. John doesn't have to tell little Billy that his coin is an overgraded cat turd despite the fact that he grades coins the same way that all graders grade, because the coin came back in a 58+ holder.
I'm not trying to fan any flames or be difficult and I can be a bit dense. What you mean when you say there's no such thing as C coins? Are you missing a qualifier in that statement? Do you mean there's no CACG holdered (or stickered) C coins? From the CAC FAQ:
Surely you're not contesting the information here that for years dealers and collectors referred to some coins as C coins and C coins are just a myth that dealers and collectors discuss?
Don't call me Shirley.
And yes, there is no such thing as C coins and never were. It was a short hand that JA used to explain the concept behind CAC Stickering to collectors without alienating the entire coin collecting community by deeming some coins, in his opinion, crap.
ABC unfortunately stuck around but it's not a grading strategy or the basis for any grades.
CAC will sticker coins that JA feels are appropriately graded by his standards and that he would be willing to buy sight unseen for market prices.
For CACG, the concept is similar but C coins are even more nonsensical because there is no longer a reference point of a P or N grade. There is only CACG 's opinion of what a coin's grade is; that may be similar, higher, or lower than anyone else's grade, it's simply their opinion just like every other TPG holdered coin.
Um, OK, I don't think that means they don't exist but I'm not going to belabor the point.
They exist, but not in the CAC or CACG grading room, put it that way.
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Um, OK, I don't think that means they don't exist but I'm not going to belabor the point.
They exist, but not in the CAC or CACG grading room, put it that way.
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Then why are you and your trolling buddy @JCH22 hiding behind your private profiles while demanding transparency, or are we just supposed to trust that you are the "good" guys. I remember your now banned previous Glicker name, but I sure don't recall that you were an asset to the forum then and I'm not seeing much of an asset now either. Perhaps you both would like to come clean and be transparent on your agendas.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Thanks, that's the clarity I needed.
Retailed another CACG coin today, nice margin - now will enjoy my whiskey.
Folks, please keep in mind Rule #2.
Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1009079/pcgs-forum-rules-and-guidelines-updated-4-19-2021