Is there a point of ethics where you tell a dealer that the coin they are offering is too cheap?
DocBenjamin
Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭
Have done so a few times with my local dealer...but then there were times that I didn't.
1
DocBenjamin
Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭
Comments
An ethical line that applies, without exception. to everyone, no.
An ethical line, personal to each individual, maybe (depending on whether a given individual has a personal code of ethics, or not).
The above is the best answer I can come up with, given the varied nature of humans.
For me, it depends on several factors.
Is the dealer relying on you as a well-known expert in a particular field or series, to help them value the coin correctly? In which case, the clear ethical answer is yes, you would be obliged to tell them.
If you are purchasing the coin with the intent to immediately on-sell the coin (for its correct value), then the ethics is questionable.
If you are purchasing a coin clearly marked with a for-sale price and the dealer seems confident in their own ability to ascertain its correct value, then I see no ethical quandary in buying the coin for the stated price.
And obviously, if you yourself are less than certain about your knowledge on the market value of the piece in question, then the ethics is clearly a "no".
And likewise, if you and the dealer are equally ignorant of the true value of the item and your "good deal" only becomes apparent when you bring the coin home to study it at leisure, likewise I see no ethical obligation to go back to the coin shop the next day and give them more money for it.
However, ethical considerations are just one part of the marketplace. There is also the social aspect. If you "do the dealer a favour" and point out a gem hiding in their trash bucket, they will (if they are ethical people themselves) likely feel grateful to you for their increased potential profit and hopefully cut you better deals in the future. They will also remember your honesty. Just like they will remember your dishonesty if you buy a mis-identified coin cheap and immediately flip it to a competitor, and they happen to become aware of this transaction.
I recall one time at a coin club auction, an unidentified ancient coin was receiving no bids from the mostly-non-ancients-people in the room. I not only identified the coin but recognized the desirability of the coin and its local provenance. I could have bought it for the (very low) reserve price -but I deliberately put in a bid much closer to it's actual market value - I felt the coin deserved better, and the vendor should be correctly compensated for their coin.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
Education can be expensive.
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Hate to be the pessimist, but…
Hardly ever. They’re adults and they likely paid a whole lot less. And cheap coins cut both ways. Learned that lesson plenty.
Point is, often times coins are priced cheaply for a reason and if you can’t see why and they’re not saying, then it’s you being taken advantage of.
There is no Santa Claus in Numismatics.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Depends on a number of things, but generally if it comes down to superior and esoteric knowledge and the dealer is a stranger, I probably wouldn’t say anything. An exception would be an item that is clearly priced in error, as with any purchase.
I've sold coins for far less that I might have gotten if I wanted to wait for the right buyer to come along. I know what my cost is and what margins I need. Sometimes, manytimes, time is money. Take some and leave some is always a good rule in my books. I do not mind leaving a bit of money on the table for a quick sale. Afterall I'm in the business to make money. And a quick flip with a good margin is much better than sitting on it forever to wait for that top dollar.
bob
PS: I'm probably done as a dealer now. Finally said it's time as I'm down to one eye (macula) and hands are no longer rock steady. Time to enjoy retirment!
As pointed out by others, it's complex and situational.
Dealer friend offered me a half dozen non-US proof sets last week. I was looking them up on ebay while we were talking. He's not known to give me great deals, but I've known him for 25 years and he's honest. I like to treat everyone fairly.
So my max price, in my head, was $50. W were looking at a couple other things. Normally, he'll ask me for an offer. Occasionally, he has a price and quotes me. This time, he said, "I'm thinking $30."
I said, "that's fair. I was actually thinking more. How about $40?" I laughed. "I don't know why I'm bidding against myself. "
He said, "because you're fair. "
And that's really it. At the end of the day, you aren't the person you think you are. You are the person you act like, especially in those moments when no one is looking.
I'd rather be the guy who makes a little less but is trusted. Dealer friends will hand me tens of thousands of dollars in material to price without fear that I will take advantage. That reputation has incalculable value.
Should their cost matter at all? Would you feel obliged to pay double market value if the dealer overpaid for the coin?
If a widow brought you a box of gold from her husband's estate, would you consider it ok to offer $1500 per ounce because you know the husband only paid $1000 per ounce?
Yes, everyone is going to say it's not the same situation. But it really is. My ethical choice in any transaction is not dependent on events that come before or after. Donating the gold I just bought at $1500 to charity doesn't make my theft of the widow more ethical.
And I'm not saying you always have to pay the max. It's complex. See my other post as well as other people's. But if all the reasons you may choose to inform the dealer or not, I fail to as how his cost is one of those factors.
I’d agree with this. I don’t think too many dealers are in the habit of pricing things for below their cost and it’s literally their business to know the value of the items they are buying and then turning around to sell.
If someone is going to get a cherry pick, I would rather it be me getting one from the dealer instead of the dealer getting one from the person with whom they bought it.
We have numerous threads here celebrating cherry picks but I have yet to see one detailing how the OP pointed out an underpriced coin.
On a slightly related note:
My Carson City Morgan Registry Set
I think that a coin dealer should be knowledgeable enough to be able to price their inventory accurately. Especially with the internet available. If a person asks me what their coins are worth I tell them what they can expect to sell it to a dealer for, but I dont feel badly for a dealer who doesn't price a coin accurately.
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Nine times out of ten if the coin seems underpriced there's a good reason for it. Is there some deal breaker flaw that is not immediately apparent? I once passed on a raw very scarce civil war era Liberty seated 's' mint dime. The coin was underpriced by a lot, so i did a very careful inspection to find a deal breaker. And I found it. The 'L' was totally missing on LIBERTY, on the shield.
Said nothing to the dealer. Simply passed on the coin. I always assume that an established coin dealer knows what he or she is doing. Ever play 'Old Maid' the card game? I have and got to be pretty good at passing the old maid to another player. There is no Santa Claus in numismatics. Believe it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I have told many dealers on ebay regarding their coins(attributed correctly) would bring far better rewards. All were not perturbed at all and several were greatful. One gave me a 20% off coupon. Which I finally used. Was not expecting or desiring a reward, but their auctions were for coins I already had or were not in position to buy at the time. Now had I been interested in the coin, oops.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Let me turn this original question on its head a bit:
If you as a dealer sold a coin on eBay only to discover after the sale but prior to shipping that you had left several thousand on the table by selling it for less than half of recent comps would you still ship the item? Has anyone here had this exact example come up? I was on the buying end of this over the past week where the seller cancelled the transaction.
Isn't that called "Cherry Picking" going throgh coins to find a deal?
Yes. This type situation recently occurred with @braddick. Check out his thread of 8/6/24.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
I have absolutely told my LCS several times about varieties they have that are worth more. He treats me well when I want something.
I got a good deal on a coin from a dealer on eBay who returned my money while claiming that he couldn't find my coin. I left him a neg which he didn't appreciate.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I recently purchased an LM9.2 1832 Capped Bust Half Dime. Actually my first attribution find and was so excited. 3 days later I suddenly received a cancellation and my funds returned no longer available. Messaged the seller and no response. I had not spoke on the forum(or any other) in its regard, so I figure as they did not trouble to respond to my message, they discovered its rarity. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I just had this happen (again) yesterday.
Kind of disappointing.
peacockcoins
@braddick: I think you’re “eBay snakebit”!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
To the OP's question (paraphrasing): Is there a point in ethics where... you do the right thing? I'd say, yes... it should be around the same time one develops a Conscience!
FWIW... I don't like situational ethics... I was at my local B&M when I lived in Albuquerque and was going through bulk silver quarters. I had built a relationship with this dealer and he had given me some pretty good deals on early copper at the time (early 2000s). I found a 32-S among the bulk bin finds... there was some damage to the obverse around the date, so I figured it was misidentified when he got it in so I let the dealer know...
On another occasion I was looking through coins I had already purchased for a Date Set of Large Cents and found a more rare variety of a particular date. My first reaction was... score! ...and I didn't call up the dealer to throw an extra couple of hundred dollars at him!
I've not been in a position, yet, to cherry pick a dealer... i suppose the people I deal with know what they're doing! ;-)
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I would still ship it.
Just because some dealers are ethically challenged doesn't mean all are. It also has no bearing on what you should do.
I agree that it has no bearing on my own decisions but sometimes people see similar situations through much different lenses depending on what side of the transaction they are on so I was curious to see how people might respond. From the buyer's side of things, I have no qualms with getting a great deal but I also have zero issue going through with a transaction if it turns out I overpaid because I overvalued a coin that was accurately represented by the seller.
There's a few dealers I'd do that for cause they have good stuff down the road. Don't hurt being honest either, jmo/fwiw
It’s never come up for me. As long as I felt like they hadn’t made a typo or mistake that would be material to their business, I’d ask once to verify the price and move on happily.
There is NO expectation that I know more about anything coin related than the dealer offering it for sale.
I’m way more likely to think I’ve gotten a steal only to find out the dealer knew what they were doing and I overpaid.
I’ve had that happen twice, which is something like 10% of all my eBay coin purchases.
Smitten with DBLCs.
If I am cherry picking a variety, no. However, if something is correctly identified but obviously mispriced, yes.
When I was still in Detroit in the early 70’s I heard about a dealer in one of the big malls who employed his sister or sister-in-law to help behind the counter. One day while he was making the post office run a young collector came in, looked around and saw a Hawaii commem marked 495. He gave the lady a $5 bill, she gave him a nickel change, and he left.
The next day he brought it back and said that he had looked it up in his Redbook and thought that there must have been a mistake. The dealer shook his hand and gave him $50 store credit. That kid had ethics.
I have never had a situation with a coin dealer. Heritage Auctions is a different story.
In the early 2000's I discovered they had an 1873-S Seated Half that did not have the "S" on the holder. After agonizing over it for 2 days, I called and told them about the mistake. i kept thinking how the seller was losing money. They said, "We employ Numismatic experts and the day we need help from a hick in the sticks like you we will let you know."
Since then I have won an 1839 Seated half that was mislabeled With Drapery and an 1846-O Tall Date That was mistaken for a Med. Date. Sometimes it is just better to be a hick rather than a numismatic expert. James
Just as a counterpoint and to be fair to HA, I email @MFeld from time to time with problematic lots within my series. Unsurprisingly, he (and by extension, Heritage) is unfailingly appreciative and responsive.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Many years ago at a coin show, I brought a 24 S Buff with me. The coin is known for its weak strike. Just for the heck of it, I saw a nicely struck XF coin labeled as a 24 P in a dealer's case. I wanted to compare it to mine, so I asked to look at it. I flipped it over and it was an exceptionally nicely struck 24 S that was mislabeled. I pointed this out to the dealer.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Northland, by chance?
Used to be a nice shop in the lower concourse. Bought stamps there.
When going through a dealer's junk quarters, I happened to find both a 1932-D and 1932-S in nice enough condition that they probably wouldn't detail grade (if anyone ever sent them in). I told him, but he let me have them for melt like the rest of the quarters.
Honesty is always the best policy, including on the dealer's part; if they sell something and then cancel the order, they are low scum in my opinion. That would earn them one less potential buyer.
God Bless, CRHer700
Do unto others what you expect to be done to you.
Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24
Cancelling an auction is taboo. Buy it now with a legitimate listing error is different. I have honored the few over the years, but the 1893-s at 99 cents. Nuh uh.
I'll admit that if the listing has a huge error ( as in I found it by chance looking for something else because the description is for the wrong coin or for something else altogether ) I wouldn't be too mad if they cancel, and I probably wouldn't even bid on something of this sort, but if it is as simple as a lack of the word "silver" or "gold" in the title, or it is listed in the wrong category, then I see that as fair game.
God Bless, CRHer700
Do unto others what you expect to be done to you.
Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24
As with everything in life I think it all depends on the situation.
I think in general I would.
If the coin was priced 5-15% under market I might not say anything and assume the dealer was able to buy it cheap and wants to move it quickly. In that case I wouldn’t bother mentioning it.
If the coin were priced 40% or more under market then I might ask why rather than flat out tell them since in those cases there may also be a reason for the price.
Must've been different people working different days.
Those of us with low self esteem think to ourselves, "who am I to educate this industry veteran and experts as to how he should price his coins?" I would never assume or assert that the dealer didn't know what he was doing or accuse them of making a mistake.
I think reality slips away some times. I truly believe that the AVERAGE dealer with a $100 coin is offered $150 for it they would accept it. And the average coin collector/buyer who found a coin listed for $100 and they know it could sell easily for $150 will buy it and make a profit. As to attributing coins, there is a great expense in learning(by mistakes especially), books and hopefully finding a mentor, as I have on several occasions and should this teaching/learning create an opportunity to purchase a coin and fill a hole in your collection for a considerable saving, then do it. Buyers are not teachers and are in no way obligated to be so in a purchase. Now I have never purchased a $1000 coin(or higher) that was worth $5000, so my amount of savings are in the <$100 range for a coin purchase. I think reality would bring far more transaction integrity to light than we think. People buying should be educated, people selling should be educated, both in the field they are attempting to profit from and if not, I'm sorry. Do not get me wrong, if a little old man or lady came to me and said what's this 1909 S VDB worth, I would do everything in my power to help them and not try to rob them. But when you are dealing with dealers/sellers it is different. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Have you ever been given fresh bills that were bricked together from a buyer who was unaware he gave you one bill extra ?
Ho, ho, ho, is this for me ? No thanks Mr Grinch.
Cha-ching in the humbling department of my ethics.
Alas, that's just me.
unless we're friends and I know the info will be appreciated and somehow reciprocated, I can't risk it anymore because if you tip off the seller, sometimes they say it's not for sale at any price or don't want to sell other coins to you - a few of those and you learn to keep your mouth shut and hope you're actually right about the coin being more valuable
Westland
One of the coins in question was a very low pop 1916-D dime in Poor1. It was priced as a 2 or 3 and brought twice the price at auction.
It was 20 years ago per the original post. It's probably all different people.
Not to mention that you can't judge an entire company by one interaction. They could have been having a bad day and not executing corporate policy.
Not properly executing corpse policy can lead to all sorts of health code violations.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Interesting that spell check chose "corpse" for "corporate".
I just buy it and move on to the next deal. If he is actually a "coin dealer" he should know.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
If the coin flip or holder had an obvious pricing error, sure. If the dealer is pricing an XF coin at a VF price? LOL. This dealer bought and has marked it up to make a profit. Of course, someplace in the world, the dealer might get a stronger price, but let the dealer travel to China, or Brussels to sell it. Why is your job to be the pricing arbitrage police?
Next time you go to a yard sale, refuse to buy anything unless you inform the seller that it is worth more and that you need to pay more.
I told a well known dealer he had a coin underpriced. He raised it $1k and it still sold immediately. I should not have said anything and bought it myself!