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What's The Latest With Hansen's Sets?

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  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I too have criticized D.L. Hansen choosing to partake with an EXTRA set (or two) over and above his main set in a given Registry. I've mentioned that concern to one of his daughters.

    But your points have nothing to do with the actions that he may be choosing to do now, which is to cross his coins at whatever grade CACG deems as proper. And any downgrades at the level of grades he has WILL be costly, and is something he does not HAVE to do. But apparently he IS doing just that.

    The disbelief continues.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2024 1:02PM

    .

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is the Curran mega thread still searchable, or did it get closed?

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Is the Curran mega thread still searchable, or did it get closed?

    Here’s the Currin one: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/997819/hansen-watch

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well this thread has gone sideways, who would have thought.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ‘’My question is will all those coins that Hansen has crossed to CACG be removed from the Pcgs registry?”

    Does anyone seriously question the ethics of Mr. Hansen to follow the clear rules and regulations of the PCGS Set Registry after he has participated in it for so long and at such a high level?

    Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2024 1:02PM

    .

  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,130 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JCH22 said:

    Steve:

    Change of mind does not explain the motivation in the first instance for the accumulation of multiple (and multiples upon multiples) of readily available examples across a vast range of series. Why run so deep into the registry if the goal is only to match Eliasberg? Hole filling argument really does not hold up either given multiple sets.

    You do know that Eliasberg had lots of dupes, right?

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • NeophyteNumismatistNeophyteNumismatist Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pumpkinhead said:
    I believe Mr Hansen is trying to positively impact the profile/acceptance of CACG coins, particularly in the Registry set area… Simply put, it’s a business decision made by a highly successful businessman…

    +1

    I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.

  • PumpkinheadPumpkinhead Posts: 48 ✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:
    I too have criticized D.L. Hansen choosing to partake with an EXTRA set (or two) over and above his main set in a given Registry. I've mentioned that concern to one of his daughters.

    But your points have nothing to do with the actions that he may be choosing to do now, which is to cross his coins at whatever grade CACG deems as proper. And any downgrades at the level of grades he has WILL be costly, and is something he does not HAVE to do. But apparently he IS doing just that.

    The disbelief continues.

    Steve

    Any downgrades may or may not be costly. Ultimately, it depends on how those coins are valued by subsequent collectors.

  • willywilly Posts: 323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven Steve have you seen any Hansen coins in CACG details holders. I think he is crossing them at any straight grade. But on details coins they are staying in the PCGS holders to sell through DLRC. I have no evidence of this but it would make the most sense to leave the details coins in their current straight holders. Probably has no issue with a downgrade but a details holder would be an issue as others would buy and crack out to have regraded.

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pumpkinhead said:

    @winesteven said:
    I too have criticized D.L. Hansen choosing to partake with an EXTRA set (or two) over and above his main set in a given Registry. I've mentioned that concern to one of his daughters.

    But your points have nothing to do with the actions that he may be choosing to do now, which is to cross his coins at whatever grade CACG deems as proper. And any downgrades at the level of grades he has WILL be costly, and is something he does not HAVE to do. But apparently he IS doing just that.

    The disbelief continues.

    Steve

    Any downgrades may or may not be costly. Ultimately, it depends on how those coins are valued by subsequent collectors.

    A plus if the graders are not aware of the owner of the coins to be evaluated. Is that even possible though with the immense value of the consignment?

  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2024 1:03PM

    .

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2024 7:35PM

    Boardwalk. Park Place and all the Railroads.

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Has not vertical integration embedded itself in the marketplace for decades?

    The marketplace will have the final say on various enterprises.

    I find his commitment admirable even after I am sure expensive tuition. He obviously loves coins and the marketplace.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ‘’Just a little additional information to make as much or little of as you will:

    CACG is an LLC. Was formed in Utah, which is not a particularly known state for businesses formation.
    https://secure.utah.gov/bes/index.html
    (enter the search term CAC GRADING, LLC), see also;

    https://cis.scc.virginia.gov/EntitySearch/BusinessInformation?businessId=11412338&source=FromEntityResult&isSeries = false

    It’s registered agent’s address is 595 S RIVERWOODS PKWY STE 400 LOGAN, UT 84321. This is the same address as the Corporate Headquarters of the Wasatch Property Management, Hansen’s Real Estate Company.
    https://www.wasatchgroup.com/contact-us/
    (select “Corporate Headquarters” drop down)

    CACG’s Virginia Beach offices are owned by CAC LAND HOLDINGS LLC, also a Utah LLC.
    https://propertysearch.virginiabeach.gov/#/property/24151389210000

    CAC LAND HOLDINGS LLC’s registered agent also shares the same corporate address as Wasatch.
    https://secure.utah.gov/bes/index.html (enter CAC LAND HOLDINGS LLC in search box).

    In routine business transactions there is an affirmative duty to disclose material facts. I defer to the community to answer whether numismatic norms might treat an equity interest in the grading company that certified a coin that is being offered as a material fact, and if so, what level of disclosure is required. At least to known whether the person has a controlling v. minority passive interest?‘’

    And some people are actually surprised Mr. Hansen is moving most or all of his set registry coins to CAC? 🤔

    One observation I would like to share with DLRC, Mr. Hansen, etc., etc.

    Nearly every week, I receive an email from PCGS advising me of the registry coins available from Great Collections for my dozens and dozens of PCGS Registry Sets. From week to week, nearly every coin changes and is fresh GC offerings. On the other hand, every week or two I believe I receive a similar email from PCGS on the coins available at David Lawrence that could help my sets. I believe many of them are Mr. Hansen’s dupes and I believe many are in auctions just like GC coins. But, these available coins keep appearing and re-appearing week after week, sometimes month after month, on the DL site. from the PCGS link. It gives me the impression that many of the great coins in the sets I collect are either illiquid or perhaps just priced too high in the email? I’m not sure, but I just want the DL team to know in my opinion it’s might not be the “greatest look” to have these great Registry coins from the various sets reappearing with each new email from PCGS (unlike the GC coins). Just an observation. And, there are many coins I would love to buy from DL if anyone there wants to reach out to me.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fathom said:
    Has not vertical integration embedded itself in the marketplace for decades?

    The marketplace will have the final say on various enterprises.

    I find his commitment admirable even after I am sure expensive tuition. He obviously loves coins and the marketplace.

    And we are unwittingly publicizing Cogswell Cogs on the Spacely Sprockets website.

    A good time to step away.

  • @JCH22 said:
    Just a little additional information to make as much or little of as you will:

    CACG is an LLC. Was formed in Utah, which is not a particularly known state for businesses formation.
    https://secure.utah.gov/bes/index.html
    (enter the search term CAC GRADING, LLC), see also;

    https://cis.scc.virginia.gov/EntitySearch/BusinessInformation?businessId=11412338&source=FromEntityResult&isSeries = false

    It’s registered agent’s address is 595 S RIVERWOODS PKWY STE 400 LOGAN, UT 84321. This is the same address as the Corporate Headquarters of the Wasatch Property Management, Hansen’s Real Estate Company.
    https://www.wasatchgroup.com/contact-us/
    (select “Corporate Headquarters” drop down)

    CACG’s Virginia Beach offices are owned by CAC LAND HOLDINGS LLC, also a Utah LLC.
    https://propertysearch.virginiabeach.gov/#/property/24151389210000

    CAC LAND HOLDINGS LLC’s registered agent also shares the same corporate address as Wasatch.
    https://secure.utah.gov/bes/index.html (enter CAC LAND HOLDINGS LLC in search box).

    In routine business transactions there is an affirmative duty to disclose material facts. I defer to the community to answer whether numismatic norms might treat an equity interest in the grading company that certified a coin that is being offered as a material fact, and if so, what level of disclosure is required. At least to known whether the person has a controlling v. minority passive interest?

    Adding to this ...

    David Lawrence Holdings LLC, David Lawrence Land Holdings LLC, and David Lawrence Rare Coins, all registered in Virginia with a principal office address of... 595 SOUTH RIVERWOODS PKWY STE 400, LOGAN, UT, 84321

    Just an observation, no commentary.

    Collecting: Cents, Dansco 7070, Half Dollars, 1947, 1976, random pieces I like
    My PCGS Registry

  • TypekatTypekat Posts: 378 ✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin

    Your GC vs. DL comparison is well worth more than 2c!
    Great Collections totally ‘clears its deck’ every week.

    30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!

  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin: absolutely agree with your GC/DLRC observations. I get the same emails from the latter weekly with the same coins offered repeatedly. Observe many are Hansen coins.

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not a fan of auctions that aren’t auctions

    I’m glad to see that you are still around!

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • lermishlermish Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rnkmyer1 said:
    @wondercoin: absolutely agree with your GC/DLRC observations. I get the same emails from the latter weekly with the same coins offered repeatedly. Observe many are Hansen coins.

    This potentially explains something to me. I bought my biggest coin in a DLRC auction at a big price but several thousand dollars less than many would have paid. I spoke with a frequent buyer of these coins yesterday and he said if he knew about the auction he absolutely would have outbid me (and I believe him).

    The coin had been on their sale list for ~6 months. I'm guessing many bidders didn't realize that they converted the sale to an auction.

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,970 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2024 10:52PM

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @winesteven said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JCH22 said:

    Zoomed out view:

    I understand Hansen’s publicly stated goal is to match Eliasberg in completeness.

    He has gone far beyond, and somewhat below, that goal. He has accumulated multiple examples across most all series. He has meanwhile passed on some required coins that have come up.

    He subsequently entered the seller’s side, and then a new privately held TGP appeared in which he is said to be a principle.

    I accept that one might have a sense his motives are pure and benign. I have seen no concrete explanation though for the above inconsistencies/concerns given his stated goal. Guess the ultimate disposition of his PCGS slabs will provide an additional piece of information about his goals......

    I think that the longtime and ongoing disposition of his PCGS slabs provides adequate information about his goals.

    So apparently you ignore the possibility that his mind may have changed in the last year or so? That's unfortunate, since that's exactly what seems to have happened.

    Oh well.

    Steve

    ESP is not my strong point. Do you have inside information or are you just speculating?

    I am speculating but based in my observation of Hansen, he is just learning. Learning to own solid, even high end coins for the assigned grade rather than maxed out for the grade. Sitting with JA as I have over the years, one can only be impressed with JA being a stickler for honesty and being a tough grader.

    He did not “change his mind.” He is maturing as a bonafide quality over quantity collector.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2024 2:37PM

    @JCH22 said:

    .

    I think that the longtime and ongoing disposition of his PCGS slabs provides adequate information about his goals.

    So apparently you ignore the possibility that his mind may have changed in the last year or so? That's unfortunate, since that's exactly what seems to have happened.

    Oh well.

    Steve

    Steve:

    Change of mind does not explain the motivation in the first instance for the accumulation of multiple (and multiples upon multiples) of readily available examples across a vast range of series. Why run so deep into the registry if the goal is only to match Eliasberg? Hole filling argument really does not hold up either given multiple sets.

    Understand appeal to good character argument. That alone does not explain 1) such an initial accumulation strategy, and 2) subsequent entry into the sales side of the market 3) followed by the acquisition of a financial stake in a market making grading company.

    Objectively, there are signs of a market maker with an interest in numismatics. Appeal to character is a subjective response. Any objective information specifically addressing items 1-3 above would sure be welcome (genuinely).

    When you buy whole collections, you naturally get a lot of duplicates. And the best way to solve that problem is to sell them. There's nothing remotely unusual about that.

  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2024 1:03PM

    .

  • lermishlermish Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JCH22 said:
    From a recent article:

    According to Hansen: “Ethics and personal integrity are the foundation that I’ve built my life around, both personally and professionally. This priority extends into my personal coin collecting as well and motivates me to partner with CAC Grading in an effort to combat ‘gradeflation.’ While focusing on the highest quality coin possible, I learned many lessons along my collecting journey. But the idea that some of my coins may have issues or have been pushed grade-wise to achieve a certain end-result goes against every fiber of my being.”

    Hansen added: “I want my coins graded with integrity. I am advocating for a more consistent process in which the grades cannot be artificially inflated through multiple grading submissions. Thus, I’ve chosen CAC Grading and am excited to start this process!”
    https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/hansen-collection-of-u-s-coins-moving-to-cac-grading.

    CAC’s formation is described as:

    In 2022, Albanese organized over 150 leading members of the numismatic community to expand their mission for accuracy and consistency by creating a new third-party grading and encapsulation service that was launched in 2023, CAC Grading.

    Phrases/words such: advocating, “partner with,” “chosen CAC” and “start this process” are used. No mention is made of any role/financial stake in CAC's 2022 formation or in its current operations ......

    Does raise the question--why?

    For the why, is it totally impossible that he is telling the truth and going through this whole process for the exact reasons he stated? And, if so, why would he share any of his personal business deals? It's none of our business.

    DLH sounds like @winesteven in all the best ways!!!

  • RLSnapperRLSnapper Posts: 572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just saw a video where his "2nd" set of proof Barbers got special CACG silver vanity labels and his first set will have gold vanity labels. DLRC is auctioning off the 2nd set.
    I say good riddance from the PCGS registry and hope he is happy at CAC......where the "real" grades are....what a joke.

  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2024 1:03PM

    .

  • CrepidoderaCrepidodera Posts: 363 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Combatting grade inflation is admirable, but I wonder how DLH will feel about the numerous coins in his collection that will fail to cross into CACG holders at any grade.

  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the principals I know of have the old-timer my word-is-my-bond integrity so I'm not concerned in this situation

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 6,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JCH22 said:
    From a recent article:

    According to Hansen: “Ethics and personal integrity are the foundation that I’ve built my life around, both personally and professionally. This priority extends into my personal coin collecting as well and motivates me to partner with CAC Grading in an effort to combat ‘gradeflation.’While focusing on the highest quality coin possible, I learned many lessons along my collecting journey. But the idea that some of my coins may have issues or have been pushed grade-wise to achieve a certain end-result goes against every fiber of my being.”

    Ok, so where is the "gradeflation" line in the sand start? 2024? 2008? 1992?

    I'm old enough to remember when this was an F15 at best.


  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2024 6:46PM

    @Crepidodera said:
    Combatting grade inflation is admirable, but I wonder how DLH will feel about the numerous coins in his collection that will fail to cross into CACG holders at any grade.

    Coins are stupid, they will willingly occupy any holder and grade chosen.

  • TorinoCobra71TorinoCobra71 Posts: 8,050 ✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:

    @Manifest_Destiny said:

    @willy said:
    I just heard today at the ANA that he is moving everything to CACG

    I bet his dipped coins don't get detailed.

    Most of my 20th Century silver coins are without toning, mostly highly lustrous blast white. Even though many/most have likely been dipped at some point, apparently it was done gently enough that EVERY coin I have that’s eligible for a CAC sticker has one!

    So you’ll be mistaken if you think Hansen’s coins that are highly lustrous and blast white received preferential treatment from CACG. Two additional points: 1) I heard from a VERY reliable source that D. L. Hansen is paying the FULL amount of fees on the thousands of coins that he might cross to CACG, and 2) Hansen is aware that many of his high graded coins will only cross to CACG at grades lower than that on the current holders, but he’s ok with that, as he wants his coins to be “properly graded”, despite taking an expensive “haircut”!

    Steve

    People that got that kinda money for crossovers make my head spin....... how many 1000s of dollar are we talking about!?!?!? :/

    image
  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So?

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,130 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2024 7:49AM

    It seems to me that one major point is being overlooked in all the sniping and responses being about Mr. Hansen’s motives in getting his coins graded at CACG.
    The PCGS registry at some point will no longer include many leading sets as well as many leading coins. Maybe an opportunity for some that are sitting second or third.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TorinoCobra71 said:

    @winesteven said:

    @Manifest_Destiny said:

    @willy said:
    I just heard today at the ANA that he is moving everything to CACG

    I bet his dipped coins don't get detailed.

    Most of my 20th Century silver coins are without toning, mostly highly lustrous blast white. Even though many/most have likely been dipped at some point, apparently it was done gently enough that EVERY coin I have that’s eligible for a CAC sticker has one!

    So you’ll be mistaken if you think Hansen’s coins that are highly lustrous and blast white received preferential treatment from CACG. Two additional points: 1) I heard from a VERY reliable source that D. L. Hansen is paying the FULL amount of fees on the thousands of coins that he might cross to CACG, and 2) Hansen is aware that many of his high graded coins will only cross to CACG at grades lower than that on the current holders, but he’s ok with that, as he wants his coins to be “properly graded”, despite taking an expensive “haircut”!

    Steve

    People that got that kinda money for crossovers make my head spin....... how many 1000s of dollar are we talking about!?!?!? :/

    He's a billionaire. He can probably afford it.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 2,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @TorinoCobra71 said:

    People that got that kinda money for crossovers make my head spin....... how many 1000s of dollar are we talking about!?!?!? :/

    He's a billionaire. He can probably afford it.

    Probably?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @TorinoCobra71 said:

    People that got that kinda money for crossovers make my head spin....... how many 1000s of dollar are we talking about!?!?!? :/

    He's a billionaire. He can probably afford it.

    Probably?

    Lol. Well, we don't know how liquid his billions are...

  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 7,166 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think Hanson is great for the hobby, I hope more like him come into the fold in the future.

  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2024 1:04PM

    .

  • FrankHFrankH Posts: 945 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2024 12:45PM

    It's good to know that there's an "overhang" so large that it could "flood the market." :s

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coin Finder said:
    I think Hanson is great for the hobby, I hope more like him come into the fold in the future.

    Until every independent shop gets put out of business as Bezos did with Amazon.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @Coin Finder said:
    I think Hanson is great for the hobby, I hope more like him come into the fold in the future.

    Until every independent shop gets put out of business as Bezos did with Amazon.

    Other than trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel to try to find something to criticize, I don’t see your point at all! Does anyone think that DLRC in practice has hurt any dealer or LCS by selling Hansen’s dupes or buying for him the greatest U.S. coin collection EVER?

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2024 9:25AM

    @FrankH said:
    It's good to know that there's an "ovehang" so large that it could "flood the market." :s

    There’s a LOT I don’t know, so I’ll bite - what the heck is an ovehang, and please clarify your point, so it makes some sense to me, as well as others. Thanks.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:

    @FrankH said:
    It's good to know that there's an "ovehang" so large that it could "flood the market." :s

    There’s a LOT I don’t know, so I’ll bite - what the heck is an ovehang, and please clarify your point, so it makes some sense to me, as well as others. Thanks.

    Steve

    "Overhang"

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok, but I still don’t get the point.

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2024 1:04PM

    .

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