Its time for the ball/strike calls to be taken away from the home plate umpires.
tommyrusty7
Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Technology has reached the point where robots make more accurate calls than umpires.
The umpires miss too many ball/strike calls.
They call strikes that are balls and balls that are strikes too many times in critical situations.
Umpires should stay behind the plate to repeat what the robots tell them is a ball or a strike .
They also need to be there for plays at the plate.
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Its on the way 2026 or 2027. Manfred has already talked about it. Theres no reason for umpires once it happens and they have no one to blame but the guys like Joe West and Angel Hernandez. No reason for them to be calling any plays just let the robots do it or replay. if they cant call balls and strikes why should they make any call
Once it gets there though there are going to be some wild strikes called from something just touching the zone where its measured. Overall right now it should be an improvement since the umpires union doesnt allow for bad umpires to be sent down
Missouri 14 OSU 3
It’s been working its way through the minors, but they supposedly aren’t satisfied with it yet. There are a couple different approaches in use - one where the robots call everything and another where it can be used to challenge the ump. Not sure which one is the leading candidate for MLB use.
Jim
Good idea. Robot could double as a wagering kiosk. Players would no longer have to get a call in to cousin Ernie in Kalamazoo.
Let the robots do all the ball & strike calls because the umpires miss too many. The pitchers are just going to have to throw more balls over the plate if they want strikes. This will upset them as their averages will go down and the hitters averages will go up as they get better pitches to hit.
Will be interesting, if it is implemented, to see managers arguing with a robot and kicking sand in the bots guts.😀
The robot will be invisible and the umpire will be just standing there saying it's not me making the call. Live with it !
Don't see it ever happening for a multitude of reasons.
I am fine with robots. Just get the calls right
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Watching sports is about entertainment. Sports fans should admit that at least part of the fun is morbid entertainment. Discussing, getting hissed, or screaming about umps and their incorrect calls is all part of the entertainment package, adding to the "fun." 😆
Robots will happen and if not next year then by the following year. Computers have changed the world and I am sorry but there is no going back now. We love what they have done for us but now they are going to destroy our lives as we have known it. Just look at the world today from what it was even 10 years ago. Umpires are just the next in line to be obliterated. How far down the line is your job and will you be able to handle it? I ran into my block at the cell phone and could not figure it out!
I agree that things will change, likely beyond anyone's current imagination. That being said, I think that as long as baseball is played by real people as opposed to robots, it will be umpired by real people.
We will go from wondering if the ump has an account at Draft Kings to wondering if the computer programmer has such an account.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
Not unlike the traffic red light cameras where half the proceeds go to the private operator.
I agree umpires will be there for as long as I am alive but I am 84 and sure dont know much anymore the way things are changing. I'm not sure I want to stick around much longer anyway.
Boy, you hit a nerve on this one!! I live in a very small town, pop 3,603 (2022 census). I don't live in town, but about 5 miles away in a gated community on lake Oconee. However, with limited roads to do things, we are all compelled to travel this particular road to go north to Athens, Ga, or take a long, out of the way, circuitous routed to avoid the eye. We now take the long way to avoid this nonsense. Its not like we're blasting past the High School doing 60-70. Think Mayberry.
Spy cameras were recently installed near the local High School. Speed limit goes rapidly from 45 to 35 to 30 in the school zone 30 MPH when flashing. School was not in session, and I got a gift from the gestapo camera for $96!!! No indication of speed, only that I "exceeded the speed limit". The payment was to be sent to some outfit in the state of Washington, well over 2,500 miles away. Lots of pissed people here, why is some clown outfit on the other side of the US getting a pretty nice chunk of my $96???
As I understand the process, lots and lots of pics are made available to the local cops. A cop is then assigned the task of identifying and then penalizing those who violate the law. I have no idea where the line is drawn, is it 36 MPH, 41 MPH? If you don't send it in, you then get a more enforceable letter stating that your license has been suspended until the fine is paid.
Talk about Big Brother!!!
Also another tactic is the quick change traffic light. Was a case in Italy and Florida where traffic lights were set to change green to red rapidly to trap light runners. In both cases the authorities were deemed negligent in the scam. In the Florida case the funds were being directed to the officers pension fund.
$96 is a bargain. Closer to $300 in Southern Arizona.
About 5 years ago a citizen sued to get the cameras removed (and won)
He had gotten hit with $500 fine for I dunno, a minor turn violation.
Roads here are more like the Autobahn here now, but at least the eye in the sky has been disabled.
I’ve deployed many of those camera systems in the past. You’re welcome for all your tickets.
You are exactly right. If they ever did do that, before the end of the first season, there would be a major gambling scandal perpetrated by the computer programmer.
Those who may think otherwise, simply don't understand gambling or human nature.
Eat and drink healthy, and you'll make it not only to triple digits, but vibrant as well.
Also keep posting at Sports Talk, and other forums as well. 😊
Its going to happen and its going to happen soon. MLB has been testing it in the independent leagues and the minors for years. Manfred has already said a couple months ago that the plan is to have it during spring training next year and full implementation for 2026. Its not out of the question for 2025 if the spring training testing goes well but they dont believe they can get it ready everywhere in time for next season.
Theres going to be some wild strike calls with it. I dont feel bad for the umpires they brought it on themselves. I do feel bad for catchers though. Between pitches being called electronically from the dugout and now this theyre now the running backs of MLB and completely devalued and worthless other than their bat. Nothing the players can do to stop it either because of the horrendous CBA they signed
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Well you obviously follow it closer than me. Perhaps you're right.
If it does come about, in my opinion, MLB would have diminished itself even more.
I don't see this happening. The human factor has to remain in the game for several reasons.
Who would make the call at home plate? There will always be bad calls and I think its on the Comish to address the issue and maybe require those umpires that make "excessive" bad calls to be re-educated and somehow be placed on notice to improve or find themselves in single A ball.
I feel it is an improvement. The pitchers. have been getting away with it for years and the batters have too. It will just make the pitchers throw it across the plate more often. An umpire that does not know the strike zone by the time he reaches the majors should not be in the majors, Moral of the story is to throw strikes.
This is peculiar twist in MLB.
First, since it is being used in Triple A, where the best new players and guys rehabbing are at, will it cause confusion?? They'll be subjected to two systems going up and coming down. Secondly, the favored approach now is to have challenges instead of an automated strike zone. What strikes me as odd about that?? After all the changes done in recent years to "speed things up" now the League and fans want to introduce a system that will "slow things down" during a game.
My feeling about MLB and all the problems that seem to have cropped up are a result of the tinkering with the size of the strike zone. An umpire today doesn't really have an easy focal point for the top of the zone, ie. the shoulders or arm pits, but instead has to make an estimate of the point between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants.
It has never made sense to me that over the years perhaps the most critical part of the game has been changed, what is a ball and what is a strike.
The umpires would still be there for home plate calls I should think. The umpires union would fight like hell if the umpires are demoted. Angel Hernandez is a prime example.
Baseball was the game that time forgot.
Now it is the game that fans forgot.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40377683/mlb-robot-umpires-automated-balls-strikes-challenge-system-umps-majors
I guess theyve recently decided to respond to the backlash from the fans and players and are now planing on using it as a challenge system as a first step to implementing it fully. The current CBA lasts through 2026 where the league can do whatever it wants with rule changes. Their ability to do that should be an issue in the next CBA but Tony Clark seems more interested in helping out the owners than representing the players hes supposed to be representing.
I hate a lot of the changes theyve made as well. College is a more pure form of baseball right now. You really wont like one of the changes theyre trying to test out and I really really hope that it never happens
Missouri 14 OSU 3
The umpires aren't nearly as bad as fans think. If you're going by the box on the TV screen, you're using the wrong metric. The TV box is simply not accurate.
When umpires do miss, it's by 1" or so. Think about how small that is in a 3d space for an object moving 95mph.
Take a look at Close Call Sports to see the actual computer tracking.
That said, we'll get robots soon and I think that's great. It'll eliminate complaining, if nothing else.
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Correct. The box isn't 3 dimensional, so a pitch that appears outside the box may have crossed the strike zone. The umpires do a pretty good job.
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Probably nothing will eliminate complaining, but it should eliminate the absolutely horrendous calls you see once in a while. I hate to see a guy get called out on strikes in a big situation on a ball that's obviously not in the strike zone.
Watching the game that once consumed my Summers in Keystone Kops like decline is frustrating as well as exhilarating.
If the reason for using robot umpires to call balls and strikes is because human umpires make mistakes (i.e. robot umpires are better than their human counterparts and perform better), then why not use the same reason to support an argument that human baseball players should be replaced with better robot baseball players?
Robot baseball players (assuming technology has progressed, or will progress to the point where robots have the same or better physical abilities as human baseball players) will be able to perform at a better level than humans. Batting averages will be higher as will other statistical categories. Errors made by humans will be reduced or possibly even eliminated.
Who on the forums believes that human umpires should be replaced with robot umpires? For those who do, do you believe that human baseball players should be replaced with robot baseball players? If not, why not?
I presume you are simply trying to instigate an argument from this incredibly flawed analogy.
I do not know why people refer to an automated strike zone as "robotic". There is not a robot behind home plate calling balls and strikes, it is simply a computer program to automate and regulate the strike zone. Gone will be the days of umpires' 'preferences' dictating how pitchers approach the game day-to-day.
Robotic baseball players? What are you even on about? This isn't even worth arguing against.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
The point behind my post is to see what people think about replacing human actors (i.e. umpires) with non human things (i.e. robots, computer program, etc.) and the extent to which doing so is desirable.
Part of baseball (and other sports; and other areas of human endeavor) that is appealing to fans is the drama that flows from mistaken calls (or debatable calls) by a human umpire (referee, judge or other person charged with making a call/decision).
For example Tommy Lasorda disagreeing with a called strike, charging the plate umpire, jawing with the umpire and kicking dirt on the umpire's shoes. Great drama and entertainment.
Human labor (i.e. digging ditches, building the pyramids, etc.) with people using their bodies has changed over time with the invention of and use of tools. That is a good thing, as more work can be done in a shorter time via automation and tools.
Should other areas of human activity see the same thing happen?
Television and Movies are made that cover this topic (i.e. Real Steel dealt with boxing having humans replaced by robots; an early 1960's Twilight Zone episode starring Lee Marvin involved him posing as a robot boxer getting into the ring to fight a real robot boxer (because he was a boxer who needed money but the sport changed to where humans were not allowed in the sport as they had been replaced by robots); and Bicentennial Man starring Robin Williams as a Robot personal assistant (who was purchased by a wealthy family) that changed from a Robot to a human over the course of 200 plus years (being with the same family for multiple generations that were born, lived and died all while the Robin Williams character never changed and he chose to reject his immortality)).
As far as Robot baseball players go, the lead Robot in the movie I Robot had the skills, power, strength and agility that would easily translate into a phenomenal professional athlete, including a baseball player. While only a movie, I have no doubt that in years to come robotics will advance to the point where in real life there will be robots similar to the one on display in that movie.
I don't know of a single, solitary fan who prefers a ball or strike called incorrectly because they want drama and not a correctly called game. If you claim to want the 'entertainment' of a player or coach arguing with an umpire, you aren't a sports fan and you should get that entertainment from a TV show or movie.
We have continued to evolve over time to get more and more calls right - instant replay in professional sports, automatic line calls in tennis, etc. We have technology to radically improve the core function of baseball (balls and strikes) and if your only argument against it is "we want DRAMA!" then you don't have a reasonable argument.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
Hey guys, remember the Flintstones !
Its not quite that simple. The fact is that the umpires have brought it upon themselves. If a player sucks they get sent down to the minors or released. If an umpire sucks nothing happens and some of the worst ones are the ones who are in charge of training and making assignments.
I would rather have the umpires be held accountable for performance. Players dont mind if the zone gets expanded an inch if it gets called consistently, what drives them crazy is when its a coin flip for whether it gets called or not. I will also never understand why they dont just have the guys that are really good at calling pitches be behind home plate every game and pay them more to do so instead of rotating everyone back there.
Since umpires arent ever held accountable for anything even when they pick fights with players and then throw them out for reacting theres not really a better solution than to just go robots for umpires.
Missouri 14 OSU 3
I want robot umpires, I want the call to be correct for everyone. all umpires should have the exact same strike zone, to make if fair for all batters and pitchers.
can someone explain to me the term ( Framing a pitch ) you hear it every game about good catchers.
Are_ umpires so Gullible_ that if a pitch is 3 inches off the plate and the catcher, after he catches the pitch moves his glove into the strike zone area and the Umpire goes hmmm must be a strike ?? when I see a catcher frame a obvious ball and the ump calls a strike that is actually worse to me then a ghost runner at 2nd base for extra innings
Hmmm.
Mistlin takes the second paragraph of my reply that was posted at 12:21 p.m. and comments only on that, while ignoring the remaining portion of my reply.
I am not a die hard fan of any sports team, nor of any sport. I do enjoy watching athletes perform and compete against each other (individually or as a member of a sports team).
Humans change over time, both physically (bigger, stronger, faster, etc.), mentally, psychologically and technologically. As does society in general. Most of the world in 2024 (and the people in it) is/are not even remotely close to what it/they was/were in 1924, 1824 and farther back in time. Most of the world in 2024 (and the people in it) will not be remotely close to what it/they will be in 2124.
Technology will continue to advance, resulting in things other than human beings (an individual or a group) making decisions and/or performing tasks in areas of human endeavor, including sports. In baseball, computers replacing human umpires to call balls and strikes will likely become the norm. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? When it comes down to calling balls and strikes it probably will be a good thing as less erroneous calls will be made.
However, where should the line between human decision makers/participants and non human decision makers/participants) be placed (for example Robot boxers or Human boxers)?
I do not know if sports forum participants have an interest in providing their thoughts and opinions on the things I have brought up. Maybe so, maybe not.
To put it simply framing means making a pitch look better than it is. Its much more complex than little league just yank it into the zone stuff and it doesnt work 3 inches out. It involves every thing from how you set up, where you set up, how you catch it. Its a real thing and some catchers get significantly more strikes called than others.
Robot umps will make the defensive catchers useless and completely devalue the position. As Ive said before robot umps are probably a necessary evil since umpires arent held accountable, but go check out some videos of the automated strike zone. Theres going to be sliders bouncing in the other batters box that are strikes because it clipped the zone
Missouri 14 OSU 3
That is why robot umpires should be reviewable .
Guy sitting behind you screaming at the players on every pitch should be replaced with an accordion player with a calypso loop of Yellow Bird.
I would rather the strike zone be called correctly than an umpire be fooled by framing.
By the way, this won't make defensive catchers 'useless' and if you think their only value is framing, then you do not have a good grasp of what makes a good catcher. They are responsible for calling the game, knowing batters' and pitchers' tendencies, strengths and weaknesses, etc.
Why anyone continues to argue for the human element (i.e., getting it wrong) is beyond me.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
Well Said Mistlin.....
Catchers do not call pitches anymore, they are called from the dugout on an ipad which electronically tells the pitch through a devise worn in their hats. The number of catchers that actually call pitches can be counted on one hand, those days are gone.
Framing is a skill. It does devalue the position by removing that aspect of the game.
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Catchers do not call pitches anymore. If anyone takes this guy seriously get help.
Make as many alt accounts as you want. Pitches are called from the dugout with pitchcom which is why catchers dont give signals anymore
Missouri 14 OSU 3
Pitches are called from the dugout but the catcher is the one punching in the signals into the pitchcom.
You want perfection, stay away from the ballpark. You want to watch the greatest team sport ever created, on a nice summer evening, go to a game.
They arent. The catchers dont give signals in MLB. Mexio or Japan there are other leagues like that where some do it. MLB isnt doing it
Missouri 14 OSU 3