@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
If you see one of my coins on Ebay that you like...please do not buy from me.
Why? Are you planning to hold his coin for 8 months before you send it to him?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’m curious about the coins and how they graded. The P.O. does their job. They P O many customers. And in truth they are due a reimbursement, although they should “write it off” to poor service.
Early 2014 I mailed an Ebay sale to New Jersey. 85-CC Morgan in a 66+ holder. A bit over $3000. Weather in the area was blizzard like for nearly two weeks.
Buyer entered a not arrived claim after 7 days. Got to work trying to hunt the coin down. Not easy then on a Registered. It had stalled at a facility near LaGuardia. Spoke to an Ebay high dollar sales rep on day 13. He told me that if the buyer requested the refund a day later, it would be granted.
Coin was delivered later that day. Wondered though, had the buyer gotten the refund, whether he would have covered it on receipt of the item. Suspect in that case, I would have been SOL.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Should there be any kind of penalty for holding the OP's coins hostage for 8 months and for the time and effort the OP expended to get back only a part of the insured value of his coins? I would refund the insurance payment to the USPS after they request it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Legally it would be a return of the coin(s) that the USPS is entitled to.
If an 1895 Proof Morgan (for example,) was insured for the 50k max and declared lost. Shipper might spend the settlement on a replacement coin and not have the money on hand to refund the underwriter.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Should there be any kind of penalty for holding the OP's coins hostage for 8 months and for the time and effort the OP expended to get back only a part of the insured value of his coins? I would refund the insurance payment to the USPS after they request it.
Sure, a penalty would be nice, but what would you suggest?
Since the coins turned up, the (“only part of the insured value”) amount that was paid on the claim is irrelevant, other than that it’s now owed to the P.O.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Legally it would be a return of the coin(s) that the USPS is entitled to.
If an 1895 Proof Morgan (for example,) was insured for the 50k max and declared lost. Shipper might spend the settlement on a replacement coin and not have the money on hand to refund the underwriter.
Inability to pay would not be a factor. If you owe the feds money, they'll wait.
The relevant section of the USPS guidelines was posted earlier in the thread. It seems that either the PO keeps the package, or the insured person has the option of returning the insurance payout and keeping it.
This sort of thing happens all the time in the outside world. It gets handled various ways. Most insurance companies do not want to warehouse damaged or even undamaged goods. On occassion they'll just tell the person to keep the merchandise.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Should there be any kind of penalty for holding the OP's coins hostage for 8 months and for the time and effort the OP expended to get back only a part of the insured value of his coins? I would refund the insurance payment to the USPS after they request it.
You would fold like a beach towel at BMM's pool bash.
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Wait a second.... they didn't pay you the full amount of what you insured it for?
They denied coverage for items that you didn't have a receipt for?
What about 10-20 year old coins that are potentially valued much higher - they would only pay what you purchased them for?
I would think that if you purchased $20k in insurance and they won't cut you a check for $20k then their insurance product is fraud.
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Wait a second.... they didn't pay you the full amount of what you insured it for?
They denied coverage for items that you didn't have a receipt for?
What about 10-20 year old coins that are potentially valued much higher - they would only pay what you purchased them for?
I would think that if you purchased $20k in insurance and they won't cut you a check for $20k then their insurance product is fraud.
The partial refunding is why I made the statement earlier that USPS would have to come after me for the money back, I wouldn't voluntarily give it to them.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
I'd want to know exactly how to do this first and have confidence that submitting a refund would not be like the sitcom trope where someone gets too much money from their bank for some reason and tries unsuccessfully to give it back, only making the situation worse (Friends, Frasier, probably others).
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
I'd want to know exactly how to do this first and have confidence that submitting a refund would not be like the sitcom trope where someone gets too much money from their bank for some reason and tries unsuccessfully to give it back, only making the situation worse (Friends, Frasier, probably others).
Many years ago Amazon sent me 2 items instead of one. I tried to return the extra item and I regretted it, it was soooo painful because their system just isn't (wasn't) setup for that. I regretted it and won't do it again. Now I think their system has a process for this, but it didn't use to.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Should there be any kind of penalty for holding the OP's coins hostage for 8 months and for the time and effort the OP expended to get back only a part of the insured value of his coins? I would refund the insurance payment to the USPS after they request it.
They didn't hold them hostage. They bought them from him.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Should there be any kind of penalty for holding the OP's coins hostage for 8 months and for the time and effort the OP expended to get back only a part of the insured value of his coins? I would refund the insurance payment to the USPS after they request it.
They didn't hold them hostage. They bought them from him.
@goodmoney4badmoney said:
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Should there be any kind of penalty for holding the OP's coins hostage for 8 months and for the time and effort the OP expended to get back only a part of the insured value of his coins? I would refund the insurance payment to the USPS after they request it.
They didn't hold them hostage. They bought them from him.
Yeah, but now OP is going to pay to grade them.
True. It would be funny if that took another 8 months.
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
They didn't provide you with the amount of coverage that you paid for?
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
Good lesson. I always self insured non Registered packages, but believed the settlement procedure at that higher level was less troublesome.
Don't ship ,any high dollar coins, but will leave the insurance section bland next time.
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
They didn't provide you with the amount of coverage that you paid for?
You can't insure a box of coal for $1 million. You have to price that the insured value is accurate.
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
They didn't provide you with the amount of coverage that you paid for?
You can't insure a box of coal for $1 million. You have to price that the insured value is accurate.
It doesn't matter what's in the box. If I pay for $1M worth of insurance to take a box from A to B and they lose it, what grounds to they have that the $1M insurance isn't payable? They shouldn't allow me to buy $1M worth of insurance if they aren't going to cover it or dispute it.
There are many problems with this. If I ship the Mona Lisa, how can anyone say what the value is? The value should be what I insure it for because the only way to determine its value is a public auction. An appraisal can get a ballpark, but only the market will determine the value.
Another scenario, you have grandpa's coin collection all purchased 50 years ago. I send it in for grading. Maybe half of it will come back details cleaned, maybe there will be some top pops. If I chose to insure for $1000 or $1M no third party should have any say what it's worth. If I buy $1M insurance policy and they willingly sell it and accept my payment, how can they dispute how much the coverage is for?
Another scenario, I order coins from the US mint for $1000 and they turn out to be a rare variety (discovery specimens) that I send to PCGS for attribution and they get lost. I estimate the market would value them at $10k. But the USPS will only pay $1k on an insurance claim even if I insure them for $10k each because that's what my US mint receipt says and I paid a premium for $10k insurance?
Are you telling me in all of these scenarios I'd be totally screwed?
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
They didn't provide you with the amount of coverage that you paid for?
You can't insure a box of coal for $1 million. You have to price that the insured value is accurate.
By all accounts, the process of filing an insurance claim via USPS is either an exercise in frustration at best or a complete ripoff at worst. My collectibles insurance policy covers loss up to 60K via USPS Express or Registered mail with signature confirmation or up to $2500 via USPS Priority mail with signature confirmation. In the end, it's cheaper than postal insurance and covered anyway under the umbrella of your policy.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It doesn't matter what's in the box. If I pay for $1M worth of insurance to take a box from A to B and they lose it, what grounds to they have that the $1M insurance isn't payable? They shouldn't allow me to buy $1M worth of insurance if they aren't going to cover it or dispute it.
[...]
I understand your 'point/position'. Notwithstanding, a mailer is not entitled to an automatic payout of the insured amount, because of the 'terms and conditions' in the DMM.
In the event of 'damage/loss', the most USPS will generally payout is the "actual value" of the article (Sub-Section 4.1.a), regardless of the amount of coverage a mailer purchased. And, the USPS decides whether the 'proof of value' submitted during the claims process is "acceptable" (Sub-Section 6.0, and Sub-Section 3.2).
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
They didn't provide you with the amount of coverage that you paid for?
You can't insure a box of coal for $1 million. You have to price that the insured value is accurate.
It doesn't matter what's in the box. If I pay for $1M worth of insurance to take a box from A to B and they lose it, what grounds to they have that the $1M insurance isn't payable? They shouldn't allow me to buy $1M worth of insurance if they aren't going to cover it or dispute it.
There are many problems with this. If I ship the Mona Lisa, how can anyone say what the value is? The value should be what I insure it for because the only way to determine its value is a public auction. An appraisal can get a ballpark, but only the market will determine the value.
Another scenario, you have grandpa's coin collection all purchased 50 years ago. I send it in for grading. Maybe half of it will come back details cleaned, maybe there will be some top pops. If I chose to insure for $1000 or $1M no third party should have any say what it's worth. If I buy $1M insurance policy and they willingly sell it and accept my payment, how can they dispute how much the coverage is for?
Another scenario, I order coins from the US mint for $1000 and they turn out to be a rare variety (discovery specimens) that I send to PCGS for attribution and they get lost. I estimate the market would value them at $10k. But the USPS will only pay $1k on an insurance claim even if I insure them for $10k each because that's what my US mint receipt says and I paid a premium for $10k insurance?
Are you telling me in all of these scenarios I'd be totally screwed?
The Mona Lisa is a separate issue from the rocks. It has value.
You are insuring an item against loss of value, not trying to turn a profit. They would not let you buy the $1 million in insurance if they knew it was a box of coal. They trust you to properly value it. [Read the terms and conditions. ]
The same is true of all property insurance. You can't insure your $300k house for $10 million either. You can't insure your $50,000 car for $2 million.
If you could, everyone would just ship a box of rocks to the highest theft neighborhood in the country with a label that said "gold bars".
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
Get your Congressman involved. Someone lost a registered package that was being sent to me. They wanted to pay half of what the coins were worth until he threatened to escalate it further. Then he got close to the full amount. Yeah, every claim is different, but that tactic is available.
How hard was it to get the claim paid by the USPS?
They only paid for what I had “receipts”, like purchases from auction houses where I could show how it was paid (credit card). I had bought one coin from an established numismatist that they denied. I had to submit a claim appeal with lots of documentation that they allowed and paid. Patience is required for sure.
I should add that I had bought some coins from forum members and that was no go.
Sounds like the USPS goes out of their way to deny legitimate claims after they lose or steal an insured package. How can you insure a rare coin that's been in your family for several generations if they require a receipt?
What you could do to have ready as evidence in case you have to make a claim is photodocument the family heirloom coin. Take a picture of Redbook price. Use whatever price guide gives you the highest dollar number. One could also get a professional appraisal done, put into writing and signed.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
They didn't provide you with the amount of coverage that you paid for?
You can't insure a box of coal for $1 million. You have to price that the insured value is accurate.
It doesn't matter what's in the box. If I pay for $1M worth of insurance to take a box from A to B and they lose it, what grounds to they have that the $1M insurance isn't payable? They shouldn't allow me to buy $1M worth of insurance if they aren't going to cover it or dispute it.
There are many problems with this. If I ship the Mona Lisa, how can anyone say what the value is? The value should be what I insure it for because the only way to determine its value is a public auction. An appraisal can get a ballpark, but only the market will determine the value.
Another scenario, you have grandpa's coin collection all purchased 50 years ago. I send it in for grading. Maybe half of it will come back details cleaned, maybe there will be some top pops. If I chose to insure for $1000 or $1M no third party should have any say what it's worth. If I buy $1M insurance policy and they willingly sell it and accept my payment, how can they dispute how much the coverage is for?
Another scenario, I order coins from the US mint for $1000 and they turn out to be a rare variety (discovery specimens) that I send to PCGS for attribution and they get lost. I estimate the market would value them at $10k. But the USPS will only pay $1k on an insurance claim even if I insure them for $10k each because that's what my US mint receipt says and I paid a premium for $10k insurance?
Are you telling me in all of these scenarios I'd be totally screwed?
The Mona Lisa is a separate issue from the rocks. It has value.
You are insuring an item against loss of value, not trying to turn a profit. They would not let you buy the $1 million in insurance if they knew it was a box of coal. They trust you to properly value it. [Read the terms and conditions. ]
The same is true of all property insurance. You can't insure your $300k house for $10 million either. You can't insure your $50,000 car for $2 million.
If you could, everyone would just ship a box of rocks to the highest theft neighborhood in the country with a label that said "gold bars".
The conclusion is that unless you have a solid proof of value for what you're insuring something for, forget insurance you might as well save the money and not insure it.
Home insurance is different because they payout for partial loss and you're insuring up to a limit of what your insurance policy is for.
There is no real profit opportunity. Insurance is a bet. I pay my car insurance premium which is a bet that I will have an accident and receive a payout that will make me whole. The insurance company takes the other side of that bet that I won't have an accident. In my case, the insurance company wins pretty much every year.
The PO insurance rates should be calculated such that the probability of loss and actuary tables make it unprofitable to "bet" on loss of a package. The USPS is betting that they will get the package from A to B and you are betting that it will not. It shouldn't matter what is inside. Unlike home or car insurance, the loss is never (or almost never) partial. Yes, you could "get lucky" and mail a box of rocks insured for $1M that gets lost but the math is working against you. They should be able to cut a check for the full insured amount without any question or concern of what was inside because of the math underlying the bet they made and loss.
Now per the information here I accept that that's not how the USPS actually works, but it's alarming and eye opening to me that they will gladly sell you insurance for an amount that will not cover which is by definition, fraud.
Edited to add: This basically means that a die variety discovery specimen is uninsurable beyond what you paid for it, even though it could be a $100,000 coin at auction. I bet most people don't realize this.
Now per the information here I accept that that's not how the USPS actually works, but it's alarming and eye opening to me that they will gladly sell you insurance for an amount that will not cover which is by definition, fraud.
I think that you as the sender are supposed to know the rules and abide by them. It you buy insurance for something that is not insurable then that is ultimately your mistake (and one that I'm sure I have made many times).
The alternative is to declare and perhaps even display to the clerk exactly what the contents of your package are, and establish the value right there at the counter.
In any case, it's not reasonable to expect anyone to blindly accept your valuation for a package (such as a million dollar box of rocks). I'm not totally on board with the USPS's policies on establishing value, but allowing the sender to place any value they want is not reasonable.
Incidentally, I was in a similar predicament recently when I wanted to have some Daniel Carr coins slabbed. I had 18 of the 20 coins in existence, and there were no existing sales records. I bought minimal insurance because I knew it would be impossible to prove value.
Now per the information here I accept that that's not how the USPS actually works, but it's alarming and eye opening to me that they will gladly sell you insurance for an amount that will not cover which is by definition, fraud.
I think that you as the sender are supposed to know the rules and abide by them. It you buy insurance for something that is not insurable then that is ultimately your mistake (and one that I'm sure I have made many times).
I'm sure that is the case, but the USPS does not do an adequate job of disclosing this, IMO.
The alternative is to declare and perhaps even display to the clerk exactly what the contents of your package are, and establish the value right there at the counter.
I can't imagine discussing the potential value of a discovery specimen with my local USPS clerk before dropping it in a package to mail it; and further, that is his agreement of value means anything.
In any case, it's not reasonable to expect anyone to blindly accept your valuation for a package (such as a million dollar box of rocks). I'm not totally on board with the USPS's policies on establishing value, but allowing the sender to place any value they want is not reasonable.
Why not? As explained above, you're betting on the whether the USPS can successfully deliver the package and the bet size is directly proportional to the risk calculated by USPS for that declared value. They lose the package and now suddenly because you can't prove (or they dispute) the value of what was inside they get to pay less even though the terms were agreed to up front?
@JBK said:
Off the top of my head I can't think of any insurance situation where you are allowed to set your own valuation.
You can't insure for sentimental value, for example. You certainly can't insure for nonexistent value.
The only case that comes to mind that remotely resembles your scenario is life insurance. But that is quite a different situation.
How so? In life insurance both sides make a bet that you will or will not die during the term and how much the life is worth. At the post office, you and USPS decide how much the box is worth in case they fail to deliver it.
You buy a $1M policy for yourself and then after you die, if you were the USPS they would come back and say that your life wasn't worth that much because you're just an unemployed bum, here's $100k go away even though you paid a premium for $1M coverage. Perfect analogy.
@JBK said:
You're just fantasizing at this point. This discussion has left the real world.
Well it may be a fantasy that the USPS would operate in a fair and logical manner.
With all insurance products, the maximum liability is defined up front and the insurance premium is determined by the maximum risk. Loss of shipment is maximum loss and should result in maximum payout.
@JBK said:
Off the top of my head I can't think of any insurance situation where you are allowed to set your own valuation.
You can't insure for sentimental value, for example. You certainly can't insure for nonexistent value.
The only case that comes to mind that remotely resembles your scenario is life insurance. But that is quite a different situation.
How so? In life insurance both sides make a bet that you will or will not die during the term and how much the life is worth. At the post office, you and USPS decide how much the box is worth in case they fail to deliver it.
You buy a $1M policy for yourself and then after you die, if you were the USPS they would come back and say that your life wasn't worth that much because you're just an unemployed bum, here's $100k go away even though you paid a premium for $1M coverage. Perfect analogy.
Life insurance is not property insurance. The value of your life is not part of the calculation for either party. It is strictly actuarial.
Life insurers are certainly more vigilant as the amount of coverage increases. You can buy a $10,000 policy from Joe Namath on a Bonanza commercial with a phone call.
A million bucks and you are getting a physical and paying more for your bad habits. Settlement may be scrutinized as well if the conditions are questionable.
They want to know who and what is being underwritten.
@Herb_T said:
My package shows up at PCGS. Go figure! I made an insurance claim, need to send USPS their insurance money back.
Be aware of this also, after i have sent coins via registered and insured by usps i have received text messages saying they need to verify the address or your email I spoke to the post office , It is a scam!!! The USPS will not text message you, they will email you. If you click on it they can get all sorts of your personal info. DO NOT FALL FOR THIS SCAM!!!!!!
The USPS is an abysmal, borderline incompetent, and over charging federal government agency. And don’t give me that crap about them not being a government agency. If they have a federal police force with armed agents, they’re a government agency.
This is an agency that intentionally TAKES A LOSS on bulk mailers that literally nobody wants. Then they rape you for insurance that they’ll eventually fight you tooth and nail not to pay. This is your GOVERNMENT folks. So, either get your own insurance or expect to take it right up the poop chute. Because that’s where you’re eventually gonna get it. And no, they will not give you a complimentary bottle of K-Y.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
...the insurance premium is determined by the maximum risk...
That's the way I look at it. Your premium amount is based on the amount of coverage. You want a million dollars coverage? You're going to pay the price for it.
I have a classic car insured by a well-known company. They asked me to pick any amount I wanted to insure it for, I chose an amount, and I now pay a yearly premium based on that amount. If there is a total loss, they send me a check for the amount of coverage I chose. They did not assign a value to my vehicle, I did. Just they way it should be.
I sent a $12K package to PCGS recently, and I seriously sweated it after I dropped it off at the post office and later that day read their insurance crap. What If I'd have bought a coin from a dealer 30 years ago for $1000 with a sales receipt and it was now worth $20,000???
@Jacques_Loungecoque said:
... Then they rape you for insurance that they’ll eventually fight you tooth and nail not to pay.
Insurance against their own unaccountable employees stealing your stuff, no less. In some circles, that's called "protection." Insure through a third party, not the USPS.
Comments
Tell them the check is in the mail.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
USPS would have to threaten me with legal action before they saw a penny refunded back.
If you see one of my coins on Ebay that you like...please do not buy from me.
Why? Are you planning to hold his coin for 8 months before you send it to him?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’m curious about the coins and how they graded. The P.O. does their job. They P O many customers. And in truth they are due a reimbursement, although they should “write it off” to poor service.
As noted, Registered mail can be quite slow.
Early 2014 I mailed an Ebay sale to New Jersey. 85-CC Morgan in a 66+ holder. A bit over $3000. Weather in the area was blizzard like for nearly two weeks.
Buyer entered a not arrived claim after 7 days. Got to work trying to hunt the coin down. Not easy then on a Registered. It had stalled at a facility near LaGuardia. Spoke to an Ebay high dollar sales rep on day 13. He told me that if the buyer requested the refund a day later, it would be granted.
Coin was delivered later that day. Wondered though, had the buyer gotten the refund, whether he would have covered it on receipt of the item. Suspect in that case, I would have been SOL.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I believe that both legally and ethically, you’d be obligated to send a refund.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I hear the Federal penitentiary is lovely in the fall.
Should there be any kind of penalty for holding the OP's coins hostage for 8 months and for the time and effort the OP expended to get back only a part of the insured value of his coins? I would refund the insurance payment to the USPS after they request it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Legally it would be a return of the coin(s) that the USPS is entitled to.
If an 1895 Proof Morgan (for example,) was insured for the 50k max and declared lost. Shipper might spend the settlement on a replacement coin and not have the money on hand to refund the underwriter.
Sure, a penalty would be nice, but what would you suggest?
Since the coins turned up, the (“only part of the insured value”) amount that was paid on the claim is irrelevant, other than that it’s now owed to the P.O.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Inability to pay would not be a factor. If you owe the feds money, they'll wait.
The relevant section of the USPS guidelines was posted earlier in the thread. It seems that either the PO keeps the package, or the insured person has the option of returning the insurance payout and keeping it.
This sort of thing happens all the time in the outside world. It gets handled various ways. Most insurance companies do not want to warehouse damaged or even undamaged goods. On occassion they'll just tell the person to keep the merchandise.
Technically for the 3 coins…two crossovers and 1 raw. The rest are mine, no insurance claim on these.
You would fold like a beach towel at BMM's pool bash.
Wait a second.... they didn't pay you the full amount of what you insured it for?
They denied coverage for items that you didn't have a receipt for?
What about 10-20 year old coins that are potentially valued much higher - they would only pay what you purchased them for?
I would think that if you purchased $20k in insurance and they won't cut you a check for $20k then their insurance product is fraud.
The partial refunding is why I made the statement earlier that USPS would have to come after me for the money back, I wouldn't voluntarily give it to them.
I'd want to know exactly how to do this first and have confidence that submitting a refund would not be like the sitcom trope where someone gets too much money from their bank for some reason and tries unsuccessfully to give it back, only making the situation worse (Friends, Frasier, probably others).
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Many years ago Amazon sent me 2 items instead of one. I tried to return the extra item and I regretted it, it was soooo painful because their system just isn't (wasn't) setup for that. I regretted it and won't do it again. Now I think their system has a process for this, but it didn't use to.
They didn't hold them hostage. They bought them from him.
Yeah, but now OP is going to pay to grade them.
True. It would be funny if that took another 8 months.
I had a signed professional appraisal from Mark Feld and a copy of the cancelled check from a forum member and they still denied it. If you don;t have private insurance, dealing with the USPS is a losing battle.
They didn't provide you with the amount of coverage that you paid for?
Good lesson. I always self insured non Registered packages, but believed the settlement procedure at that higher level was less troublesome.
Don't ship ,any high dollar coins, but will leave the insurance section bland next time.
You can't insure a box of coal for $1 million. You have to price that the insured value is accurate.
It doesn't matter what's in the box. If I pay for $1M worth of insurance to take a box from A to B and they lose it, what grounds to they have that the $1M insurance isn't payable? They shouldn't allow me to buy $1M worth of insurance if they aren't going to cover it or dispute it.
There are many problems with this. If I ship the Mona Lisa, how can anyone say what the value is? The value should be what I insure it for because the only way to determine its value is a public auction. An appraisal can get a ballpark, but only the market will determine the value.
Another scenario, you have grandpa's coin collection all purchased 50 years ago. I send it in for grading. Maybe half of it will come back details cleaned, maybe there will be some top pops. If I chose to insure for $1000 or $1M no third party should have any say what it's worth. If I buy $1M insurance policy and they willingly sell it and accept my payment, how can they dispute how much the coverage is for?
Another scenario, I order coins from the US mint for $1000 and they turn out to be a rare variety (discovery specimens) that I send to PCGS for attribution and they get lost. I estimate the market would value them at $10k. But the USPS will only pay $1k on an insurance claim even if I insure them for $10k each because that's what my US mint receipt says and I paid a premium for $10k insurance?
Are you telling me in all of these scenarios I'd be totally screwed?
Hope Diamond started out that way...
By all accounts, the process of filing an insurance claim via USPS is either an exercise in frustration at best or a complete ripoff at worst. My collectibles insurance policy covers loss up to 60K via USPS Express or Registered mail with signature confirmation or up to $2500 via USPS Priority mail with signature confirmation. In the end, it's cheaper than postal insurance and covered anyway under the umbrella of your policy.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I understand your 'point/position'. Notwithstanding, a mailer is not entitled to an automatic payout of the insured amount, because of the 'terms and conditions' in the DMM.
In the event of 'damage/loss', the most USPS will generally payout is the "actual value" of the article (Sub-Section 4.1.a), regardless of the amount of coverage a mailer purchased. And, the USPS decides whether the 'proof of value' submitted during the claims process is "acceptable" (Sub-Section 6.0, and Sub-Section 3.2).
The Mona Lisa is a separate issue from the rocks. It has value.
You are insuring an item against loss of value, not trying to turn a profit. They would not let you buy the $1 million in insurance if they knew it was a box of coal. They trust you to properly value it. [Read the terms and conditions. ]
The same is true of all property insurance. You can't insure your $300k house for $10 million either. You can't insure your $50,000 car for $2 million.
If you could, everyone would just ship a box of rocks to the highest theft neighborhood in the country with a label that said "gold bars".
Better chance that a box labeled "Snickers" would get swiped.
Get your Congressman involved. Someone lost a registered package that was being sent to me. They wanted to pay half of what the coins were worth until he threatened to escalate it further. Then he got close to the full amount. Yeah, every claim is different, but that tactic is available.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The conclusion is that unless you have a solid proof of value for what you're insuring something for, forget insurance you might as well save the money and not insure it.
Home insurance is different because they payout for partial loss and you're insuring up to a limit of what your insurance policy is for.
There is no real profit opportunity. Insurance is a bet. I pay my car insurance premium which is a bet that I will have an accident and receive a payout that will make me whole. The insurance company takes the other side of that bet that I won't have an accident. In my case, the insurance company wins pretty much every year.
The PO insurance rates should be calculated such that the probability of loss and actuary tables make it unprofitable to "bet" on loss of a package. The USPS is betting that they will get the package from A to B and you are betting that it will not. It shouldn't matter what is inside. Unlike home or car insurance, the loss is never (or almost never) partial. Yes, you could "get lucky" and mail a box of rocks insured for $1M that gets lost but the math is working against you. They should be able to cut a check for the full insured amount without any question or concern of what was inside because of the math underlying the bet they made and loss.
Now per the information here I accept that that's not how the USPS actually works, but it's alarming and eye opening to me that they will gladly sell you insurance for an amount that will not cover which is by definition, fraud.
Edited to add: This basically means that a die variety discovery specimen is uninsurable beyond what you paid for it, even though it could be a $100,000 coin at auction. I bet most people don't realize this.
I think that you as the sender are supposed to know the rules and abide by them. It you buy insurance for something that is not insurable then that is ultimately your mistake (and one that I'm sure I have made many times).
The alternative is to declare and perhaps even display to the clerk exactly what the contents of your package are, and establish the value right there at the counter.
In any case, it's not reasonable to expect anyone to blindly accept your valuation for a package (such as a million dollar box of rocks). I'm not totally on board with the USPS's policies on establishing value, but allowing the sender to place any value they want is not reasonable.
Incidentally, I was in a similar predicament recently when I wanted to have some Daniel Carr coins slabbed. I had 18 of the 20 coins in existence, and there were no existing sales records. I bought minimal insurance because I knew it would be impossible to prove value.
I'm sure that is the case, but the USPS does not do an adequate job of disclosing this, IMO.
I can't imagine discussing the potential value of a discovery specimen with my local USPS clerk before dropping it in a package to mail it; and further, that is his agreement of value means anything.
Why not? As explained above, you're betting on the whether the USPS can successfully deliver the package and the bet size is directly proportional to the risk calculated by USPS for that declared value. They lose the package and now suddenly because you can't prove (or they dispute) the value of what was inside they get to pay less even though the terms were agreed to up front?
Off the top of my head I can't think of any insurance situation where you are allowed to set your own valuation.
You can't insure for sentimental value, for example. You certainly can't insure for nonexistent value.
The only case that comes to mind that remotely resembles your scenario is life insurance. But that is quite a different situation.
How so? In life insurance both sides make a bet that you will or will not die during the term and how much the life is worth. At the post office, you and USPS decide how much the box is worth in case they fail to deliver it.
You buy a $1M policy for yourself and then after you die, if you were the USPS they would come back and say that your life wasn't worth that much because you're just an unemployed bum, here's $100k go away even though you paid a premium for $1M coverage. Perfect analogy.
You're just fantasizing at this point. This discussion has left the real world.
Well it may be a fantasy that the USPS would operate in a fair and logical manner.
With all insurance products, the maximum liability is defined up front and the insurance premium is determined by the maximum risk. Loss of shipment is maximum loss and should result in maximum payout.
Life insurance is not property insurance. The value of your life is not part of the calculation for either party. It is strictly actuarial.
Life insurers are certainly more vigilant as the amount of coverage increases. You can buy a $10,000 policy from Joe Namath on a Bonanza commercial with a phone call.
A million bucks and you are getting a physical and paying more for your bad habits. Settlement may be scrutinized as well if the conditions are questionable.
They want to know who and what is being underwritten.
I thought he sold hearing aids. I guess he gets around.
Be aware of this also, after i have sent coins via registered and insured by usps i have received text messages saying they need to verify the address or your email I spoke to the post office , It is a scam!!! The USPS will not text message you, they will email you. If you click on it they can get all sorts of your personal info. DO NOT FALL FOR THIS SCAM!!!!!!
The USPS is an abysmal, borderline incompetent, and over charging federal government agency. And don’t give me that crap about them not being a government agency. If they have a federal police force with armed agents, they’re a government agency.
This is an agency that intentionally TAKES A LOSS on bulk mailers that literally nobody wants. Then they rape you for insurance that they’ll eventually fight you tooth and nail not to pay. This is your GOVERNMENT folks. So, either get your own insurance or expect to take it right up the poop chute. Because that’s where you’re eventually gonna get it. And no, they will not give you a complimentary bottle of K-Y.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I happen to like the PO overall. A few things another me a bit, but the positives outweigh the negatives for sure.
The insurance thing can be a disappointment, but that disappointment can largely be avoided by not paying to insure uninsurable things.
You can always use FedEx or UPS or you can get in your car and hand deliver your packages. There are lots of other options.
That's the way I look at it. Your premium amount is based on the amount of coverage. You want a million dollars coverage? You're going to pay the price for it.
I have a classic car insured by a well-known company. They asked me to pick any amount I wanted to insure it for, I chose an amount, and I now pay a yearly premium based on that amount. If there is a total loss, they send me a check for the amount of coverage I chose. They did not assign a value to my vehicle, I did. Just they way it should be.
I sent a $12K package to PCGS recently, and I seriously sweated it after I dropped it off at the post office and later that day read their insurance crap. What If I'd have bought a coin from a dealer 30 years ago for $1000 with a sales receipt and it was now worth $20,000???
My Carson City Morgan Registry Set
Insurance against their own unaccountable employees stealing your stuff, no less. In some circles, that's called "protection." Insure through a third party, not the USPS.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Things have turned a bit negative here.
They miss the old reliable Pony Express.
Admittedly, a decent colt could make the cross country trip to California in less than 8 months, even with stopping at Pimlico for the Preakness.