Stacks rant or not? Or Great collections positive
AZDAVY
Posts: 114 ✭✭✭
I am wondering if this has happened to you at stacks or any other coin auction house.
Sent consignment in 3 months ago , auction took place late June. I was told today a lot sold was not paid for so my consignment proceeds will be deducted by that amount. Not a large amount , just a couple hundred dollars. Stacks offered to relist or send the coin back. Relisting would mean probably not getting paid an additional 2 to 3 months 😞 ( that would be almost half a year !
This has happened to me before with stacks bowers 3 other times a coin sold was not paid for and my proceeds were deducted.
I have had a couple hundred listings with great collections in the last couple years and never have I been told a lot has not been paid for and I would not get paid.
Has this unpaid lot situation happened to you at the other auction houses?
Does great collections have the policy that if a lot is sold and not paid for they buy the coin and relist it?
Or have I just been extremely lucky with great collections?
Interested in hearing other experiences.
Comments
@ianrussell The OP has a question for you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It happens at all auction houses. How they deal with it may differ.
Honestly, I'm surprised that the bigger auction houses don't have this happen more often. Most of the time everything goes normally.
It would be reasonable to deduct for a non paid item of substantial value, but would seem that for a couple hundred dollars, more sensible for the house to keep it and resell.
Be interesting to hear the auctioneer's take on this.
Only once @ HA many years ago. Back then, they had a settlement of up to 45 days. I was informed by my consignment director on day 43 the coin didn’t sell. I don’t know what could have been done differently, maybe a heads up before day 43? It was an unpleasant surprise as it was a $7k coin.
Other than that, all the auction houses have been good/great. I had a slow pay from GC once on a multiple coin consignment. Not a problem, though, as I assumed one of the buyers was a slow payer.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Never happened to me.
Speaking from GC's standpoint, we really don't have any issue with non-payments by bidders. We do everything we can ahead of time to vet/approve bidders to stop issues occurring. We also offer flexible payment terms (our extended payment plan, for example), which helps if someone wins more than they had planned.
The last time we had to cancel something, was actually a mechanical error (which I consider a different situation) - this was 12-18 months ago.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Wow!! Another positive for great collections.
Never had it happen with GC. Sold a lot over the years (pun intended).
The frequency of GC auctions is also a huge plus. Turnaround is great.
When a coin is returned though, how is the accounting handled?
Very rarely are coins returned - a fraction of 1% of the coins we auction, and rarer again that this would affect any consignor.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
I've sold 100+ coins at GC and it's never happened.
Curios, why did you consign with them in the 1st place?
If this happened to you 3 TIMES BEFORE! Why would you keep going back to them?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
For the same reason many of us keep going back to Taco Bell.
Taste good even though you are likely to experience a bit of unpleasantness later in the evening.
Rebirth. Renewal. Transformation.
A related issue is where the winning bidder notified the auction house that he made a mistake and bid on the wrong lot. I have had this happen as consignor and also as underbidder where I was contacted by auction company wondering whether I wanted to purchase at a lower bid.
In both cases, buyer’s remorse seemed more likely than mistaken bid.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I would think the auction house would just eat the item and either relist it or wholesale it as part of the risk of doing business vs putting it back on the consignor.
@alaura22
A very good question. Perhaps hoping for a different result , but that sounds foolish as I am typing. Really would like two auction houses to deal with. I loved legend auctions , and I really love great collections . I feel it is better to deal with two and have options or choices.
I don't do Taco Bell or any other fast food so I'll take your word
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Just be sure to check out the FEE"S
One is at 20% and another is at 10%,
On one, anything over $1001 has no sellers fee
And one has resonable shipping
You figure out which is which
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
That's fine for widgets. There are things, like tokens, where you would lose your arse selling them at GC relative to Stack's. There is no auction house that is always the right answer.
Widgets is too strong a word, but GC does seem to cater more to buyers and sellers of US Federal coins, judging by the material handled. Colonials for instance don’t seem to get a lot of play.
Yes. But even in US Federal, the prices for more commonly collected series with more obvious pricing are more likely to see no difference in final price between different venues. [Widgets.] Less common series or scarcer material is more likely to show a difference based on venue. So a highly publicized ANA auction versus a weekly GC can show price differences.
GC is great. But so are Stack's, Heritage, Legend, etc. And the people obsessed with BP or SP are ignoring or unaware that there is only an indirect relationship between BP and money in your pocket... except for "widgets" where the relationship is more direct because the price variation is much smaller.
Redacted.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
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Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Oh, go ahead. Since GC and Stack's have already commercialized the thread.
I love Heritage. I probably spend 10 hours per week looking through your various catalogs. I definitely spend more money there than anywhere else.
Read some previous comments larger dealers getting 108% of hammer price at heritage...small slab like me gets 100%...buyer pays the 20% and a seller premium of 5 to 15%? Who make money in the coin business besides Heritage, Stacks, and Great Collections? Looks like some prices are falling....been buying pcgs and ngc ms65 quarter eagles....2 months ago paid 750...last week 680...nice coins without black spots.....lived thru the crazy coin market from 1979 to about 1990....I do find great collections a great place to buy and sell...where the rubber meets the road...tip of the cap to Ian, Paul, and the crew at Great Collections
If Taco Bell is a bit too pricey for you there is always Del Taco. It isn't the same high quality fresh mexican cuisine you would expect from Taco Bell, but it'll do for those on a tight budget.
peacockcoins
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Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It happens at all auction houses from time to time. How they deal with it may differ and vary, however.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Learned the hard way several year ago about the percentage over hammer option on significant consignments.
Cost me a bundle...cost the house any future business.
Thanks for the comments, besides the unasked for hammer differences 😀
So I guess my conclusion is great collections handles their auction proceeds differently when a consignors sold lots are not paid for. They pay the consigner .!
Stack’s bowers they don’t pay you and I am unlucky that it has happened to me multiple times.
I'm not sure we even know that. Ian basically said it never happens. I would be really surprised if they never deducted proceeds until an actual sale takes place. It seems perfectly logical to do so.
@jmlanzaf Not to expand your cranium more but AI has nothing on you
@jmlanzaf
Ok to satisfy you under most reasonable circumstances, please don’t argue reasonable 😀. But I know that will be hard for you.to do.
It’s like every thread I open up there he is spewing wisdom again. I mean where does he get all this knowledge? Apparently I’m confined to using less than 10% of my brain matter
The ignore works fine!
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
You're all about to get kitty-slapped!
Another class act by Ian... Thoughtful responses to forum questions within a half hour of posting on a Friday night. That's dedication. It's is how to build a great reputation and loyal clientele. I'm always impressed.
I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe I'm not using enough.
My point is legitimate. No actual sale has taken place until payment is made. I find it unlikely that an auction house wants to pay for lots that haven't actually sold. The reductio ad absurdum argument exaggerates the point, but that is the nature of the rhetorical device.
I personally have purchased from HA, and GC and as one of the previous posts mentioned it appears each auction house appeals more to different collections. When I built my MSD set I found the more difficult, higher graded coins were more readily available at HA, as was the case when I built my 3CN set. However, when I built my ASE set GC by far was the better place to find more options.
I also found higher realized prices in selling at GC my lower mid-grade coins. I can say I never had any issues with GC when I sold or bought coins. I have sold approximately 40-50 coins with them.
When one AH is not as particularly well known as a large inventory seller of a certain set of coins it does open up opportunities as a buyer if you pay close attention.
I can attest to the fact that one coin in particular I needed to finish my set was constantly pushing 9-10k when I would bid on it at GC. One day recently, the coin appeared in a HA auction and I was able to pick it up several thousand lower then I was able to every time I would bid on it at GC. Now on the other hand building my 3CN set I found HA had a much much larger pool of choices and to further illustrate my point I bid on the 1885 MS65 3CN Nickel. The PCGS book was listed at 15k. I was bidding against 3 others for awhile, then 2, finally 1, when it reached 32k without including the 20% I finally bowed out.
The seller crushed it, this has a population in a MS65 of 8. Final sales price was $38,400. Now I want to be fair and I have also seen record well above book prices at GC as well. My post is not intended to claim one is better than the other, the OP specifically spoke about consignments to Stacks, I can’t comment on that AH as I have never purchased or sold to them. I can comment and use specific examples of MY personal experiences at HA and GC and in every single transaction weather I was selling, (which I only co-sign to GC because of personal service, quickly returned emails, fast payments, and really the overall ease of the selling transaction). I have bought a LOT of coins through GC and HA, I will say that in my personal experiences I would not use anyone else other than those 2 auction houses to buy or to sell. I have attached the picture of the infamous 1885 MS 65 that I lost out on but I am okay with it because I firmly believe that I was caught up in the moment in the “live auction” and it being the last one I needed I went ahead and bid at least 10k (12k w/hammer) then I should have, in this case, I really won when I lost.
Sorry for the long post, but I had a lot to say on the auction houses.
Ian built a great company with really fair fees.
HA has an incredible inventory and reaches so many amazingly difficult coins with low pops and they are exceptional in their own regard.
Huh? I don't follow.
The point is that no sale has actually taken place until payment is made. I don't find it unreasonable that an auction house doesn't pay on lots that haven't sold. It's equivalent to paying you for lots that received zero bids.
It was just an honest observation and nothing to do with the subject matter no reason to over think it.
Something tells me you didn’t do so well with the ladies. 😁
It's interesting that so many people feel free to sinply toss insults. Whatever you think my flaws may be, that's not one of them.
Oddly, no one has even bothered to try to refute the point I made. I guess you just don't like that I'm the one who made it. There is an "ignore" function if you're bothered by my presence.
jmlanzaf’s hypothetical about running a $500 or $1000 coin up to $100,000 in collusion with someone else to prove that Ian is not stupid and would easily have his first unpaid consignor in a long time if someone messed with him was thought provoking to say the least.
But, I actually had the experience of consigning a $100,000 hammer price fresh classic coin to one of the “big boys” auctions and it wasn’t a fun experience at all to say the least when the winning bidder failed to pay for the coin. While the coin was worth closer to $150,000 IMHO pre-auction, after it “sold” for $115,000 or $120,000 at that time and then wasn’t paid for, it resulted in losing all of its “freshness” and suffered a significant value loss IMHO as a consequence of the “no sale”. I ended up accepting quite a “haircut” to sell the coin not long after the cancelled sale (and attempted sale efforts).
Ian’s approach of at least trying 100% to get each and every sale closed is very refreshing to hear after having been through a situation where a cancelled sale cost me (and the party I represented as agent in selling the coin) big money!
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
That's actually very interesting. Despite my poorly received illustration, I would have thought that non-payment was far more common on less expensive coins. I wouldn't think people who have six figure bidding authorization are prone to be unable or unwilling to pay.
What you say about "freshness" is so very true. This is the biggest downside to non-payment. It puts a comp out there that can cause people to misinterpret the coin itself. When someone looks for comps on that coin, they are going to see a $100k hammer. In this case, that puts an upper limit on what subsequent bidders will pay. But even if the $100k was a reasonable or even high bid, the existence of a very recent sale of the same coin will lead people to assume there is something wrong with the coin. [People also sometimes assume that the auction house or consignor were shilling the coin.]
I thought you had a sense of humor, my bad.
I do. You don't think that reads as insulting?
But, don't worry, we're okay.
Not a refutation, and you make a good point, but from HA or SB's view, they may be willing to pay out non-paying smaller sales. Both of those firms have enormous wholesale operations and often auction their own inventory. They may be happy to pay out $400 hammer on a coin and then keep the full $500 when they re-list it in a month.
Obviously there's a breaking point at some limit where they would not likely do that. I have no idea where that is though.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Naive question on auctions, if the winning bid doesn't pay is the coin offered to the next bidder down by GC, Heritage, and Stacks?
I for one, would be happy to pick up some of the things that I have bid on and just lost out to one final bid (at least as far as I can tell).
I find it hard to believe that GC has never had a buyer pay for a coin.
Per Ian; “ we really don't have any issue with non-payments by bidders”. This implies to me that on rare occasions a buyer doesn’t pay.
I’ve sold a fair number of coins with SB, HA, and GC. I recently had a mid four figure coin on HA “sell” and the buyer didn’t pay. The coin was relisted and sold a few months later and I took a $600 haircut. This was the first time this ever happened to me.