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Stacks rant or not? Or Great collections positive

AZDAVYAZDAVY Posts: 121 ✭✭✭

I am wondering if this has happened to you at stacks or any other coin auction house.

Sent consignment in 3 months ago , auction took place late June. I was told today a lot sold was not paid for so my consignment proceeds will be deducted by that amount. Not a large amount , just a couple hundred dollars. Stacks offered to relist or send the coin back. Relisting would mean probably not getting paid an additional 2 to 3 months 😞 ( that would be almost half a year !
This has happened to me before with stacks bowers 3 other times a coin sold was not paid for and my proceeds were deducted.
I have had a couple hundred listings with great collections in the last couple years and never have I been told a lot has not been paid for and I would not get paid.
Has this unpaid lot situation happened to you at the other auction houses?
Does great collections have the policy that if a lot is sold and not paid for they buy the coin and relist it?
Or have I just been extremely lucky with great collections?
Interested in hearing other experiences.

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Comments

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,144 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ianrussell The OP has a question for you.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,794 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It happens at all auction houses. How they deal with it may differ.

    Honestly, I'm surprised that the bigger auction houses don't have this happen more often. Most of the time everything goes normally.

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It would be reasonable to deduct for a non paid item of substantial value, but would seem that for a couple hundred dollars, more sensible for the house to keep it and resell.

    Be interesting to hear the auctioneer's take on this.

  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Only once @ HA many years ago. Back then, they had a settlement of up to 45 days. I was informed by my consignment director on day 43 the coin didn’t sell. I don’t know what could have been done differently, maybe a heads up before day 43? It was an unpleasant surprise as it was a $7k coin.
    Other than that, all the auction houses have been good/great. I had a slow pay from GC once on a multiple coin consignment. Not a problem, though, as I assumed one of the buyers was a slow payer.

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Never happened to me.

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The frequency of GC auctions is also a huge plus. Turnaround is great.

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ianrussell said:
    Speaking from GC's standpoint, we really don't have any issue with non-payments by bidders. We do everything we can ahead of time to vet/approve bidders to stop issues occurring. We also offer flexible payment terms (our extended payment plan, for example), which helps if someone wins more than they had planned.

    The last time we had to cancel something, was actually a mechanical error (which I consider a different situation) - this was 12-18 months ago.

    • Ian

    When a coin is returned though, how is the accounting handled?

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 6,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've sold 100+ coins at GC and it's never happened.

  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A related issue is where the winning bidder notified the auction house that he made a mistake and bid on the wrong lot. I have had this happen as consignor and also as underbidder where I was contacted by auction company wondering whether I wanted to purchase at a lower bid.

    In both cases, buyer’s remorse seemed more likely than mistaken bid.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would think the auction house would just eat the item and either relist it or wholesale it as part of the risk of doing business vs putting it back on the consignor.

    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • AZDAVYAZDAVY Posts: 121 ✭✭✭

    @alaura22
    A very good question. Perhaps hoping for a different result , but that sounds foolish as I am typing. Really would like two auction houses to deal with. I loved legend auctions , and I really love great collections . I feel it is better to deal with two and have options or choices.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sanddollar said:

    @alaura22 said:

    @AZDAVY said:
    I am wondering if this has happened to you at stacks or any other coin auction house.

    Sent consignment in 3 months ago , auction took place late June. I was told today a lot sold was not paid for so my consignment proceeds will be deducted by that amount. Not a large amount , just a couple hundred dollars. Stacks offered to relist or send the coin back. Relisting would mean probably not getting paid an additional 2 to 3 months 😞 ( that would be almost half a year !
    This has happened to me before with stacks bowers 3 other times a coin sold was not paid for and my proceeds were deducted.
    I have had a couple hundred listings with great collections in the last couple years and never have I been told a lot has not been paid for and I would not get paid.
    Has this unpaid lot situation happened to you at the other auction houses?
    Does great collections have the policy that if a lot is sold and not paid for they buy the coin and relist it?
    Or have I just been extremely lucky with great collections?
    Interested in hearing other experiences.

    Curios, why did you consign with them in the 1st place?
    If this happened to you 3 TIMES BEFORE! Why would you keep going back to them?

    For the same reason many of us keep going back to Taco Bell.
    Taste good even though you are likely to experience a bit of unpleasantness later in the evening.

    I don't do Taco Bell or any other fast food so I'll take your word :o

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @alaura22 said:

    @AZDAVY said:
    @alaura22
    A very good question. Perhaps hoping for a different result , but that sounds foolish as I am typing. Really would like two auction houses to deal with. I loved legend auctions , and I really love great collections . I feel it is better to deal with two and have options or choices.

    Just be sure to check out the FEE"S
    One is at 20% and another is at 10%,
    On one, anything over $1001 has no sellers fee
    And one has resonable shipping
    You figure out which is which

    That's fine for widgets. There are things, like tokens, where you would lose your arse selling them at GC relative to Stack's. There is no auction house that is always the right answer.

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's fine for widgets. There are things, like tokens, where you would lose your arse selling them at GC relative to Stack's. There is no auction house that is always the right answer.

    Widgets is too strong a word, but GC does seem to cater more to buyers and sellers of US Federal coins, judging by the material handled. Colonials for instance don’t seem to get a lot of play.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldabeintx said:

    That's fine for widgets. There are things, like tokens, where you would lose your arse selling them at GC relative to Stack's. There is no auction house that is always the right answer.

    Widgets is too strong a word, but GC does seem to cater more to buyers and sellers of US Federal coins, judging by the material handled. Colonials for instance don’t seem to get a lot of play.

    Yes. But even in US Federal, the prices for more commonly collected series with more obvious pricing are more likely to see no difference in final price between different venues. [Widgets.] Less common series or scarcer material is more likely to show a difference based on venue. So a highly publicized ANA auction versus a weekly GC can show price differences.

    GC is great. But so are Stack's, Heritage, Legend, etc. And the people obsessed with BP or SP are ignoring or unaware that there is only an indirect relationship between BP and money in your pocket... except for "widgets" where the relationship is more direct because the price variation is much smaller.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2024 3:06AM

    @MFeld said:

    >

    @alaura22 said:

    @AZDAVY said:
    @alaura22
    A very good question. Perhaps hoping for a different result , but that sounds foolish as I am typing. Really would like two auction houses to deal with. I loved legend auctions , and I really love great collections . I feel it is better to deal with two and have options or choices.

    Just be sure to check out the FEE"S
    One is at 20% and another is at 10%,
    On one, anything over $1001 has no sellers fee
    And one has resonable shipping
    You figure out which is which

    You omitted a rather important factor in your list of four😉 - value (which can be very different from “quality”). Other than that, I’ll refrain from soliciting business in this thread.

    Oh, go ahead. Since GC and Stack's have already commercialized the thread.

    I love Heritage. I probably spend 10 hours per week looking through your various catalogs. I definitely spend more money there than anywhere else.

  • Read some previous comments larger dealers getting 108% of hammer price at heritage...small slab like me gets 100%...buyer pays the 20% and a seller premium of 5 to 15%? Who make money in the coin business besides Heritage, Stacks, and Great Collections? Looks like some prices are falling....been buying pcgs and ngc ms65 quarter eagles....2 months ago paid 750...last week 680...nice coins without black spots.....lived thru the crazy coin market from 1979 to about 1990....I do find great collections a great place to buy and sell...where the rubber meets the road...tip of the cap to Ian, Paul, and the crew at Great Collections

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2024 4:00AM

    .

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,320 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It happens at all auction houses from time to time. How they deal with it may differ and vary, however.

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Learned the hard way several year ago about the percentage over hammer option on significant consignments.

    Cost me a bundle...cost the house any future business.

  • AZDAVYAZDAVY Posts: 121 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the comments, besides the unasked for hammer differences 😀

    So I guess my conclusion is great collections handles their auction proceeds differently when a consignors sold lots are not paid for. They pay the consigner .!
    Stack’s bowers they don’t pay you and I am unlucky that it has happened to me multiple times.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2024 5:32AM

    @AZDAVY said:
    Thanks for the comments, besides the unasked for hammer differences 😀

    So I guess my conclusion is great collections handles their auction proceeds differently when a consignors sold lots are not paid for. They pay the consigner .!
    Stack’s bowers they don’t pay you and I am unlucky that it has happened to me multiple times.

    I'm not sure we even know that. Ian basically said it never happens. I would be really surprised if they never deducted proceeds until an actual sale takes place. It seems perfectly logical to do so.

  • AZDAVYAZDAVY Posts: 121 ✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf
    Ok to satisfy you under most reasonable circumstances, please don’t argue reasonable 😀. But I know that will be hard for you.to do.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2024 7:45PM

    The ignore works fine! :)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2024 11:22PM

    @Coinscratch said:
    It’s like every thread I open up there he is spewing wisdom again. I mean where does he get all this knowledge? Apparently I’m confined to using less than 10% of my brain matter :D

    I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe I'm not using enough.

    My point is legitimate. No actual sale has taken place until payment is made. I find it unlikely that an auction house wants to pay for lots that haven't actually sold. The reductio ad absurdum argument exaggerates the point, but that is the nature of the rhetorical device.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2024 11:20PM

    @AZDAVY said:
    @jmlanzaf
    Ok to satisfy you under most reasonable circumstances, please don’t argue reasonable 😀. But I know that will be hard for you.to do.

    Huh? I don't follow.

    The point is that no sale has actually taken place until payment is made. I don't find it unreasonable that an auction house doesn't pay on lots that haven't sold. It's equivalent to paying you for lots that received zero bids.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 8,663 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    It’s like every thread I open up there he is spewing wisdom again. I mean where does he get all this knowledge? Apparently I’m confined to using less than 10% of my brain matter :D

    I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe I'm not using enough.

    My point is legitimate. No actual sale has taken place until payment is made. I find it unlikely that an auction house wants to pay for lots that haven't actually sold. The reductio ad absurdum argument exaggerates the point, but that is the nature of the rhetorical device.

    It was just an honest observation and nothing to do with the subject matter no reason to over think it.
    Something tells me you didn’t do so well with the ladies. 😁

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinscratch said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    It’s like every thread I open up there he is spewing wisdom again. I mean where does he get all this knowledge? Apparently I’m confined to using less than 10% of my brain matter :D

    I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe I'm not using enough.

    My point is legitimate. No actual sale has taken place until payment is made. I find it unlikely that an auction house wants to pay for lots that haven't actually sold. The reductio ad absurdum argument exaggerates the point, but that is the nature of the rhetorical device.

    It was just an honest observation and nothing to do with the subject matter no reason to over think it.
    Something tells me you didn’t do so well with the ladies. 😁

    It's interesting that so many people feel free to sinply toss insults. Whatever you think my flaws may be, that's not one of them.

    Oddly, no one has even bothered to try to refute the point I made. I guess you just don't like that I'm the one who made it. There is an "ignore" function if you're bothered by my presence.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin said:
    jmlanzaf’s hypothetical about running a $500 or $1000 coin up to $100,000 in collusion with someone else to prove that Ian is not stupid and would easily have his first unpaid consignor in a long time if someone messed with him was thought provoking to say the least.

    But, I actually had the experience of consigning a $100,000 hammer price fresh classic coin to one of the “big boys” auctions and it wasn’t a fun experience at all to say the least when the winning bidder failed to pay for the coin. While the coin was worth closer to $150,000 IMHO pre-auction, after it “sold” for $115,000 or $120,000 at that time and then wasn’t paid for, it resulted in losing all of its “freshness” and suffered a significant value loss IMHO as a consequence of the “no sale”. I ended up accepting quite a “haircut” to sell the coin not long after the cancelled sale (and attempted sale efforts).

    Ian’s approach of at least trying 100% to get each and every sale closed is very refreshing to hear after having been through a situation where a cancelled sale cost me (and the party I represented as agent in selling the coin) big money!

    Just my 2 cents.

    Wondercoin

    That's actually very interesting. Despite my poorly received illustration, I would have thought that non-payment was far more common on less expensive coins. I wouldn't think people who have six figure bidding authorization are prone to be unable or unwilling to pay.

    What you say about "freshness" is so very true. This is the biggest downside to non-payment. It puts a comp out there that can cause people to misinterpret the coin itself. When someone looks for comps on that coin, they are going to see a $100k hammer. In this case, that puts an upper limit on what subsequent bidders will pay. But even if the $100k was a reasonable or even high bid, the existence of a very recent sale of the same coin will lead people to assume there is something wrong with the coin. [People also sometimes assume that the auction house or consignor were shilling the coin.]

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 8,663 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    It’s like every thread I open up there he is spewing wisdom again. I mean where does he get all this knowledge? Apparently I’m confined to using less than 10% of my brain matter :D

    I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe I'm not using enough.

    My point is legitimate. No actual sale has taken place until payment is made. I find it unlikely that an auction house wants to pay for lots that haven't actually sold. The reductio ad absurdum argument exaggerates the point, but that is the nature of the rhetorical device.

    It was just an honest observation and nothing to do with the subject matter no reason to over think it.
    Something tells me you didn’t do so well with the ladies. 😁

    It's interesting that so many people feel free to sinply toss insults. Whatever you think my flaws may be, that's not one of them.

    Oddly, no one has even bothered to try to refute the point I made. I guess you just don't like that I'm the one who made it. There is an "ignore" function if you're bothered by my presence.

    I thought you had a sense of humor, my bad.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2024 6:56AM

    @Coinscratch said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    It’s like every thread I open up there he is spewing wisdom again. I mean where does he get all this knowledge? Apparently I’m confined to using less than 10% of my brain matter :D

    I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe I'm not using enough.

    My point is legitimate. No actual sale has taken place until payment is made. I find it unlikely that an auction house wants to pay for lots that haven't actually sold. The reductio ad absurdum argument exaggerates the point, but that is the nature of the rhetorical device.

    It was just an honest observation and nothing to do with the subject matter no reason to over think it.
    Something tells me you didn’t do so well with the ladies. 😁

    It's interesting that so many people feel free to sinply toss insults. Whatever you think my flaws may be, that's not one of them.

    Oddly, no one has even bothered to try to refute the point I made. I guess you just don't like that I'm the one who made it. There is an "ignore" function if you're bothered by my presence.

    I thought you had a sense of humor, my bad.

    I do. You don't think that reads as insulting?

    But, don't worry, we're okay.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    It’s like every thread I open up there he is spewing wisdom again. I mean where does he get all this knowledge? Apparently I’m confined to using less than 10% of my brain matter :D

    I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe I'm not using enough.

    My point is legitimate. No actual sale has taken place until payment is made. I find it unlikely that an auction house wants to pay for lots that haven't actually sold. The reductio ad absurdum argument exaggerates the point, but that is the nature of the rhetorical device.

    It was just an honest observation and nothing to do with the subject matter no reason to over think it.
    Something tells me you didn’t do so well with the ladies. 😁

    It's interesting that so many people feel free to sinply toss insults. Whatever you think my flaws may be, that's not one of them.

    Oddly, no one has even bothered to try to refute the point I made. I guess you just don't like that I'm the one who made it. There is an "ignore" function if you're bothered by my presence.

    Not a refutation, and you make a good point, but from HA or SB's view, they may be willing to pay out non-paying smaller sales. Both of those firms have enormous wholesale operations and often auction their own inventory. They may be happy to pay out $400 hammer on a coin and then keep the full $500 when they re-list it in a month.

    Obviously there's a breaking point at some limit where they would not likely do that. I have no idea where that is though.

  • Old_CollectorOld_Collector Posts: 137 ✭✭✭

    Naive question on auctions, if the winning bid doesn't pay is the coin offered to the next bidder down by GC, Heritage, and Stacks?
    I for one, would be happy to pick up some of the things that I have bid on and just lost out to one final bid (at least as far as I can tell).

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,973 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I find it hard to believe that GC has never had a buyer pay for a coin.

    Per Ian; “ we really don't have any issue with non-payments by bidders”. This implies to me that on rare occasions a buyer doesn’t pay.

    I’ve sold a fair number of coins with SB, HA, and GC. I recently had a mid four figure coin on HA “sell” and the buyer didn’t pay. The coin was relisted and sold a few months later and I took a $600 haircut. This was the first time this ever happened to me.

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