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Is anyone else comparing their coins to CAC certified coins viewed online

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  • starsandstripesstarsandstripes Posts: 74 ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2024 1:21PM

    @mr1931S said:

    @Walkerguy21D said:
    Norm Talbert, there’s a blast from the past.
    I remember dealing with him when I still lived in Ohio, over 20 years ago.

    Norm was from Cleveland, right?

    Yes he was. He ran Great Lakes Coin. He was a long-time collector and dealer of buffalo nickels and hobo nickels,
    amongst other series. I bought at least 200 buffalo nickels from him mostly raw Good through AU. Fair and honest dealer and friend, He was consulted by David Lange when he wrote the book "The complete guide to buffalo Nickels".

    Stars&Stripes
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,445 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @starsandstripes said:

    @mr1931S said:

    @Walkerguy21D said:
    Norm Talbert, there’s a blast from the past.
    I remember dealing with him when I still lived in Ohio, over 20 years ago.

    Norm was from Cleveland, right?

    Yes he was. He ran Great Lakes Coin. He was a long-time collector and dealer of buffalo nickels and hobo nickels,
    amongst other series. I bought at least 200 buffalo nickels from him mostly raw Good through AU. Fair and honest dealer and friend, He was consulted by David Lange when he wrote the book "The complete guide to buffalo Nickels".

    Yep.
    Knew a bit about walkers and type as well.
    Died before CAC became a thing, RIP.

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerfan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Walkerfan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Walkerfan said:
    Is anyone else comparing their coins to CAC certified coins viewed online

    Hellz no! I buy both stickered and unstickered coins, but not CACG coins. I’m keeping it NGC and PCGS only! It simplifies my collecting a little bit more and I don’t believe they are worth the huge premium. I do respect his opinion, though.

    @FredS said:
    It feels like many of these folks sent their clunkers into CAC, and are mad that they were rejected. Now they are buried in those coins because they "bought the coin", (Their own opinion), rather than "the holder, with CAC", (John's opinion).

    I'll take John and the 50% to 100% bump in value, ALL DAY LONG!

    So John is better than all of us combined? Ha! That is a ridiculous suggestion!

    We don't "all" collectively grade all coins. We each make our own INDIVIDUAL assessment of the coin. If John has "the best eye in the business", as some say, his opinion could well be more valuable ("better") than all of us. It is not at all a ridiculous suggestion.

    You know what I mean….Many of us do grade well. And I think that collectively, we could make good grading decisions. Not just the ones who “CAN’T”.

    Except we don't ever do it collectively.

    Once again, you’re missing the point. Let me rephrase it and say ‘on average’.

    Are you saying that a group of forum members who collectively assign grades to coins would be more accurate than J.A. or other professional graders? If that’s not the point you’re trying to make, what is it?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • hfjacintohfjacinto Posts: 872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    Are you saying that a group of forum members who collectively assign grades to coins would be more accurate than J.A. or other professional graders? If that’s not the point you’re trying to make, what is it?

    First off I highly doubt J. A. Is grading many coins and second considering how many people play the crack out game and win, yes the average grade here maybe be better. Don’t you send the auction coins to CAC? If the professional graders are so good why do you need a 3rd opinion?

  • RedglobeRedglobe Posts: 617 ✭✭✭

    No,for me the most fun is looking at the coin and not the sticker.
    No sarcasm intended.

    Rob
  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,973 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @hfjacinto said:

    @MFeld said:

    Are you saying that a group of forum members who collectively assign grades to coins would be more accurate than J.A. or other professional graders? If that’s not the point you’re trying to make, what is it?

    Don’t you send the auction coins to CAC? If the professional graders are so good why do you need a 3rd opinion?

    Higher priced coins with stickers sell for more money than non stickered coins in general.

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No.

  • hfjacintohfjacinto Posts: 872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @skier07 said:

    @hfjacinto said:

    @MFeld said:

    Are you saying that a group of forum members who collectively assign grades to coins would be more accurate than J.A. or other professional graders? If that’s not the point you’re trying to make, what is it?

    Don’t you send the auction coins to CAC? If the professional graders are so good why do you need a 3rd opinion?

    Higher priced coins with stickers sell for more money than non stickered coins in general.

    That wasn’t the question. I know that coins with stickers and bananas with stickers sell for more. The question was about grading not the financial aspect.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @hfjacinto said:

    @MFeld said:

    Are you saying that a group of forum members who collectively assign grades to coins would be more accurate than J.A. or other professional graders? If that’s not the point you’re trying to make, what is it?

    First off I highly doubt J. A. Is grading many coins and second considering how many people play the crack out game and win, yes the average grade here maybe be better. Don’t you send the auction coins to CAC? If the professional graders are so good why do you need a 3rd opinion?

    In general, I don’t believe that the average consensus grade arrived at here is more accurate than that of a professional grader. Or for that matter, that it’s nearly as good. In addition to (usually) being more skilled, the graders have the major advantage of viewing the coins in hand.

    For every crack-out win, there are many losses. However, the losses are far less likely to be publicized by the submitters.

    Coins are submitted to CAC to maximize proceeds for consignors, not because the graders aren’t good.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • hfjacintohfjacinto Posts: 872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld I don’t have the evidence to say either is right or wrong. And I don’t 100% know either of us is wrong. Statistically speaking the averages tend to be more accurate as evidenced by the S&P 500 beating stock picks (on average). So I would assume on average a group would do better than a professional, but that is my opinion.

  • FredSFredS Posts: 70 ✭✭✭

    You guys were all right, my CAC coins do not always sell for 50%-100% more. I had some Gold CAC sell for 500%+ more!

    Whatever you all do, "BUY THE STICKER/HOLDER", not the coin. Especially if that baby is Gold in color!

    To explain it to the low-brow, John is the equivalent of Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one. His destiny is/was to bring balance to the grading universe. "You must join him", (Selling your coins for 50%-500% premiums), "or die", (being buried alive with all of your non-CAC clunkers!)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,248 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2024 3:41PM

    @Walkerfan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Walkerfan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Walkerfan said:
    Is anyone else comparing their coins to CAC certified coins viewed online

    Hellz no! I buy both stickered and unstickered coins, but not CACG coins. I’m keeping it NGC and PCGS only! It simplifies my collecting a little bit more and I don’t believe they are worth the huge premium. I do respect his opinion, though.

    @FredS said:
    It feels like many of these folks sent their clunkers into CAC, and are mad that they were rejected. Now they are buried in those coins because they "bought the coin", (Their own opinion), rather than "the holder, with CAC", (John's opinion).

    I'll take John and the 50% to 100% bump in value, ALL DAY LONG!

    So John is better than all of us combined? Ha! That is a ridiculous suggestion!

    We don't "all" collectively grade all coins. We each make our own INDIVIDUAL assessment of the coin. If John has "the best eye in the business", as some say, his opinion could well be more valuable ("better") than all of us. It is not at all a ridiculous suggestion.

    You know what I mean….Many of us do grade well. And I think that collectively, we could make good grading decisions. Not just the ones who “CAN’T”.

    Except we don't ever do it collectively.

    Once again, you’re missing the point. Let me rephrase it and say ‘on average’.

    No, I'm not. You are blinded by hubris.

    We don't even have a meaningful average because we don't all see the coin in hand.

    That aside, the average of everyone will NOT be better than the foremost expert in the field. By its very nature, the average will include people who are not expert. And, arguably, your entire cohort doesn't have one set of eyes that is as good as John's. So, how is the collective opinion of a bunch of inferior eyes going to be better than the "best eyes in the business"? It's like crowd sourcing a diagnosis instead of going to Johns Hopkins.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,248 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @hfjacinto said:
    @MFeld I don’t have the evidence to say either is right or wrong. And I don’t 100% know either of us is wrong. Statistically speaking the averages tend to be more accurate as evidenced by the S&P 500 beating stock picks (on average). So I would assume on average a group would do better than a professional, but that is my opinion.

    That assumes the average is of qualified individuals. Crowd sourcing a diagnosis is not better than going to a doctor. Now, if this forum were of professional graders, you'd be correct. But it isn't.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,248 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FredS said:
    You guys were all right, my CAC coins do not always sell for 50%-100% more. I had some Gold CAC sell for 500%+ more!

    Whatever you all do, "BUY THE STICKER/HOLDER", not the coin. Especially if that baby is Gold in color!

    To explain it to the low-brow, John is the equivalent of Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one. His destiny is/was to bring balance to the grading universe. "You must join him", (Selling your coins for 50%-500% premiums), "or die", (being buried alive with all of your non-CAC clunkers!)

    We're starting a pool on when you get banned.

  • @jmlanzaf said:

    @FredS said:
    You guys were all right, my CAC coins do not always sell for 50%-100% more. I had some Gold CAC sell for 500%+ more!

    Whatever you all do, "BUY THE STICKER/HOLDER", not the coin. Especially if that baby is Gold in color!

    To explain it to the low-brow, John is the equivalent of Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one. His destiny is/was to bring balance to the grading universe. "You must join him", (Selling your coins for 50%-500% premiums), "or die", (being buried alive with all of your non-CAC clunkers!)

    We're starting a pool on when you get banned.

    Let's be cautious on who we talk about banning with all due respect. Thank God we live in a country where free speech has always been one of our greatest strengths and rights that brave people have fought and died for. People may be right or wrong, but they still have a voice, we can choose to listen or ignore.

    Stars&Stripes
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @hfjacinto said:
    @MFeld I don’t have the evidence to say either is right or wrong. And I don’t 100% know either of us is wrong. Statistically speaking the averages tend to be more accurate as evidenced by the S&P 500 beating stock picks (on average). So I would assume on average a group would do better than a professional, but that is my opinion.

    That doesn’t sound like an on-point comparison in any way.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • hfjacintohfjacinto Posts: 872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld how isn’t it on point? Haven’t we stated that grading is subjective? We can’t have both that the experts are right if it’s subjective. And like you posted above crack out change grades both higher and lower, so a grader isn’t infallible. If we take enough subjective grades the average is probably closer to actual grade rather than a subjective expert. The S&P 500/russell index play on averages. Both tend to do on average better than an individual portfolio manager.

  • hfjacintohfjacinto Posts: 872 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2024 4:33PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @hfjacinto said:
    @MFeld I don’t have the evidence to say either is right or wrong. And I don’t 100% know either of us is wrong. Statistically speaking the averages tend to be more accurate as evidenced by the S&P 500 beating stock picks (on average). So I would assume on average a group would do better than a professional, but that is my opinion.

    That assumes the average is of qualified individuals. Crowd sourcing a diagnosis is not better than going to a doctor. Now, if this forum were of professional graders, you'd be correct. But it isn't.

    Actually you aren’t posting a fair comparison either. With the same information a group of doctors can give a better diagnosis than 1 doctor, that’s why people get 2nd opinions.

    The average poster on here has a pretty significant selection of coins, I’m pretty certain that we know the difference between an xf45 and MS62. On average we would get the grade better than a random expert. Especially considering that a grader spends on average no more than a minute on each coin.

    But this is a mute point for me, I have ~ 240 graded coins and hundreds more not graded. I don’t look at CAC coins as I haven’t sent any in to CAC and currently have no plans to. And while value is a consideration, my coin collection is so insignificant in my net worth that it doesn’t really matter. I look at the coins as I look at the $160 bottle of premium tequila we finished off.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2024 4:43PM

    @hfjacinto said:
    @MFeld how isn’t it on point? Haven’t we stated that grading is subjective? We can’t have both that the experts are right if it’s subjective. And like you posted above crack out change grades both higher and lower, so a grader isn’t infallible. If we take enough subjective grades the average is probably closer to actual grade rather than a subjective expert. The S&P 500/russell index play on averages. Both tend to do on average better than an individual portfolio manager.

    I’ve seen countless grade assessments here over a period of many years. Sometimes the consensus grade looks to be on the money, but other times, it’s off by considerably more than a professional grader would be. And that’s even though we agree that there’s subjectivity in grading.

    I’m surprised that anyone thinks a consensus grade among a random group of forum members would be as accurate as that of a top professional grader, much less, more accurate.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • I just feel that the collective knowledge of the folks on this forum is greater than that of what we call the experts. Some of the people here have collected and studied a particular series for decades and know their stuff. I have collected buffalo nickels for 25 years. Not saying that makes me an expert but I do know a thing or two. I really don't know the depth and breadth of the expert's knowledge in any particular series. They may be generalist and not specialist for all I know. it would be a stretch to think that they are experts in hundreds if not thousands of coin series. therefore, my original intent for this thread was to ask if others like me are curious as to what the grading of the series you collect is doing out there amongst all the slabbing and stickering companies. My opinion so far at least for the buffalo nickel is a lot of marketing hype which leaves me unimpressed. This could change over time, but I will not be sending my collection in for another opinion any time soon.

    Stars&Stripes
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @hfjacinto said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @hfjacinto said:
    @MFeld I don’t have the evidence to say either is right or wrong. And I don’t 100% know either of us is wrong. Statistically speaking the averages tend to be more accurate as evidenced by the S&P 500 beating stock picks (on average). So I would assume on average a group would do better than a professional, but that is my opinion.

    That assumes the average is of qualified individuals. Crowd sourcing a diagnosis is not better than going to a doctor. Now, if this forum were of professional graders, you'd be correct. But it isn't.

    Actually you aren’t posting a fair comparison either. With the same information a group of doctors can give a better diagnosis than 1 doctor, that’s why people get 2nd opinions.

    The average poster on here has a pretty significant selection of coins, I’m pretty certain that we know the difference between an xf45 and MS62. On average we would get the grade better than a random expert. Especially considering that a grader spends on average no more than a minute on each coin.

    But this is a mute point for me, I have ~ 240 graded coins and hundreds more not graded. I don’t look at CAC coins as I haven’t sent any in to CAC and currently have no plans to. And while value is a consideration, my coin collection is so insignificant in my net worth that it doesn’t really matter. I look at the coins as I look at the $160 bottle of premium tequila we finished off.

    For purposes of a valid comparison, a group of forum members who aren’t professional graders isn’t the same thing as a group of doctors. A group of professional grader forum members would be.

    Knowing the difference between an XF45 and an MS62 is irrelevant when comparing grading skills.

    A professional grader can often see things on a coin in a few seconds that a non-professional won’t see, in a few minutes.

    “Moot” point.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,320 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2024 4:59PM

    @starsandstripes said:
    I just feel that the collective knowledge of the folks on this forum is greater than that of what we call the experts. Some of the people here have collected and studied a particular series for decades and know their stuff. I have collected buffalo nickels for 25 years. Not saying that makes me an expert but I do know a thing or two. I really don't know the depth and breadth of the expert's knowledge in any particular series. They may be generalist and not specialist for all I know. it would be a stretch to think that they are experts in hundreds if not thousands of coin series. therefore, my original intent for this thread was to ask if others like me are curious as to what the grading of the series you collect is doing out there amongst all the slabbing and stickering companies. My opinion so far at least for the buffalo nickel is a lot of marketing hype which leaves me unimpressed. This could change over time, but I will not be sending my collection in for another opinion any time soon.

    This.

    Though I respect John’s opinion; he is not the be all, end all.

    As others have said he has other graders working for him now anyway.

    That’s all I’m trying to say and I have nothing more to add.

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • hfjacintohfjacinto Posts: 872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    I’m surprised that anyone thinks a consensus grade among a random group of forum members would be as accurate as that of a top professional grader, much less, more accurate.

    I guess we’ll agree to disagree. I’ve seen enough people buy the coin, crack it out and get it regraded that I take the TPG graded as an opinion.

  • FredSFredS Posts: 70 ✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FredS said:
    You guys were all right, my CAC coins do not always sell for 50%-100% more. I had some Gold CAC sell for 500%+ more!

    Whatever you all do, "BUY THE STICKER/HOLDER", not the coin. Especially if that baby is Gold in color!

    To explain it to the low-brow, John is the equivalent of Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one. His destiny is/was to bring balance to the grading universe. "You must join him", (Selling your coins for 50%-500% premiums), "or die", (being buried alive with all of your non-CAC clunkers!)

    We're starting a pool on when you get banned.

    I don't know who you are, or really care. I tried to read a few of your posts and was immediately bored with the condescending tone of them. It takes a bit more effort to be nice. You should try it sometime, it is usually worth it.

  • hfjacintohfjacinto Posts: 872 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @freds I see you got the passive aggressive attitude of some of the posters on here. I wanted to say sorry, but a lot of us have gotten that attitude. Several posters on here really do like being condescending. Don’t take it personally.

  • FredSFredS Posts: 70 ✭✭✭

    I am still chuckling about comparing serious, life saving medical advice, to foolish grading of coins!

  • lermishlermish Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @starsandstripes said:

    @ms71 said:
    Oh good! Another "collect the coin, not the plastic thread"!

    This thread is not about that!

    Some people see CAC and just have a visceral response, regardless of the intent of the thread.

    If this thread has any legs it will become that, like so many others. It happens at least every few weeks.

    Boy, I'm wrong a lot but not this time. Nailed it!

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,248 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2024 6:13PM

    @hfjacinto said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @hfjacinto said:
    @MFeld I don’t have the evidence to say either is right or wrong. And I don’t 100% know either of us is wrong. Statistically speaking the averages tend to be more accurate as evidenced by the S&P 500 beating stock picks (on average). So I would assume on average a group would do better than a professional, but that is my opinion.

    That assumes the average is of qualified individuals. Crowd sourcing a diagnosis is not better than going to a doctor. Now, if this forum were of professional graders, you'd be correct. But it isn't.

    Actually you aren’t posting a fair comparison either. With the same information a group of doctors can give a better diagnosis than 1 doctor, that’s why people get 2nd opinions.

    The average poster on here has a pretty significant selection of coins, I’m pretty certain that we know the difference between an xf45 and MS62. On average we would get the grade better than a random expert. Especially considering that a grader spends on average no more than a minute on each coin.

    But this is a mute point for me, I have ~ 240 graded coins and hundreds more not graded. I don’t look at CAC coins as I haven’t sent any in to CAC and currently have no plans to. And while value is a consideration, my coin collection is so insignificant in my net worth that it doesn’t really matter. I look at the coins as I look at the $160 bottle of premium tequila we finished off.

    Yes, a forum of doctors. This is NOT a forum of only professional graders. That is exactly my point. Thank you for rewording it.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,248 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2024 6:18PM

    @FredS said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @FredS said:
    You guys were all right, my CAC coins do not always sell for 50%-100% more. I had some Gold CAC sell for 500%+ more!

    Whatever you all do, "BUY THE STICKER/HOLDER", not the coin. Especially if that baby is Gold in color!

    To explain it to the low-brow, John is the equivalent of Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one. His destiny is/was to bring balance to the grading universe. "You must join him", (Selling your coins for 50%-500% premiums), "or die", (being buried alive with all of your non-CAC clunkers!)

    We're starting a pool on when you get banned.

    I don't know who you are, or really care. I tried to read a few of your posts and was immediately bored with the condescending tone of them. It takes a bit more effort to be nice. You should try it sometime, it is usually worth it.

    Wow. Mirror?

    You've been condescending to everyone, including John Albanese who you compared to a young Darth Vader.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,248 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2024 6:19PM

    @hfjacinto said:
    @freds I see you got the passive aggressive attitude of some of the posters on here. I wanted to say sorry, but a lot of us have gotten that attitude. Several posters on here really do like being condescending. Don’t take it personally.

    Nothing passive aggressive about it. Negative comments about businesses can get you banned. Just a friendly suggestion.

    I also don't see how claiming that this forum collective, which includes me, is not equal to John Albanese could be called condescending. I said nothing about any individual's qualifications or abilities. Where exactly is the condescension? Just because I disagree with the notion that we are collectively able to grade a coin better than John???

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,248 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @lermish said:

    @starsandstripes said:

    @ms71 said:
    Oh good! Another "collect the coin, not the plastic thread"!

    This thread is not about that!

    Some people see CAC and just have a visceral response, regardless of the intent of the thread.

    If this thread has any legs it will become that, like so many others. It happens at least every few weeks.

    Boy, I'm wrong a lot but not this time. Nailed it!

    Lol. Close. Although the discussion (argument?) Is oddly less about CAC and more about the collective abilities of the forum.

    In fact, in an oddity for a CAC thread, everyone seems to agree that CAC adds value.

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