U.S.-Philippines Pesos Chopmarked 1907 And After
RegistryCoin
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The size of the U.S.-Philippines peso was reduced in 1907 due to rising silver prices.
Were these reduced size pesos attractive for use by those who commonly would chopmark their coins?
Is it possible that a chopmark on a reduced size USPI peso is quite uncommon?
Is it possible that 1907 and later dated U.S.-Philippines pesos are currently being chopmarked, and getting by the graders?
Three such coins have been offered very recently at auction.
Here are those three coins.
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https://coins.ha.com/itm/philippines/1907-s-philippines-peso-chop-mark-pcgs-genuine-xf-details-mintage-10-278-000-pcgs-90393-/p/1376-210016.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515#
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https://coins.ha.com/itm/philippines/philippines-usa-administration-peso-1907-s-unc-details-chop-mark-pcgs-/a/232429-63181.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
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https://coins.ha.com/itm/philippines/philippines-usa-administration-peso-1908-s-unc-details-chop-mark-pcgs-/a/232423-61438.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
Comments
Calling @OriginalDan & @ChopmarkedTrades & @coins_i_like
The consensus on the one that sold last month is that it was not a legitimately chopmarked coin.
IMO, this one is not a real chop:
Again, IMO, I think these look a little better but are still questionable.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Per @ChopmarkedTrades fantastic book, the small size peso is nearly unknown chopped.
It is very unlikely that the chops are getting by graders. I have heard of one or two instances where there was a partial chop buried in a busy area of the devices but it is also basically unheard of.
EDIT: Ahh, you meant are the graders failing to recognize imitation chops? Yes. It's a niche area and both companies fail to properly authenticate chops. To be frank, I don't think they know or care when imitation chops get into a holder - it's (mostly) details graded anyway.
Anyone interested in questions or coins like these owe it to themselves to buy this book -> https://www.amazon.com/Weight-Not-Coyne-Introduction-Chopmarked/dp/B0C79L8GCT
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Yes. Very helpful.
Thank you.
I searched old auctions and found no “UNC Details” chop marked USPI pesos.
Two of the three coins linked in this thread are “UNC Details”. That just seems very unlikely.
These chopmarks look modern.
One should not rely on PCGS to authenticate chopmarks.
Would you all mind sharing what things you look at to determine if a chop is imitation vs. contemporary? It’s cool that there are so many chopmark experts here - as someone who comes across them occasionally but doesn’t know much about that, I’m curious what to look for.
I would think one marker would be the toning “inside” the chop to see if it matches the rest of the coin, but if it’s a lustrous AU/UNC coin that’s been dipped, that would make it tricky right?
I assume the design of the chop isn’t super hard to imitate accurately since they are relatively simple designs. Same with the execution of it.
So aside from obvious things like a year where chopmarks could never occur, what exactly are you looking for?
I have seen no contemporary records indicating that reduced-diameter USPI Pesos were ever chopmarked, they don't appear in vintage collections, and intuitively, the reduced size and in particular reduced fineness would have been unattractive to shroffs applying chopmarks, particularly at such a late date in the scheme of chops. As @lermish and @OriginalDan have suggested, it is much more likely that these pieces are being chopmarked in the modern day; TPGs have never authenticated chopmarks as much as the host coin.
@abbyme24 apart from looking at whether the host type itself makes sense as you suggested, some features to look out for are whether or not the chopmark size/style matches up with the coin; certain sizes and styles were much more common in certain time periods than others (i.e., small chops are very common c. 1800, but large chops take over c. 1820, per observed examples). Additionaly, many fake chops have too much uniformity to be authentic, or the chops are too carefully applied (many of the reduced diameter USPIs show this; too much pressure applied or too evenly applied to be legit).
The big problem with any of these small-diameter Pesos is the late date (post-1907 starts to get spotty for non-Chinese types) and particularly the reduction in fineness; .800 vs. .900. I don't believe any examples of this type are authentic.
One example I want to highlight is the following 1908-S USPI Peso, sold at HA in Nov. 2023:
The mark appears suspect at first glance, because it is so crisp and of an unusually elaborate style and design. But then the kicker was the exact same mark was sold six months earlier on an 8 Reales at HA ... dated 1740:
Definitely not genuine.
Here are the links to both of the above coins: https://coins.ha.com/itm/philippines/philippines-usa-administration-pair-of-certified-pesos-ngc-total-2-coins-/a/232347-64443.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515
and
https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/mexico-philip-v-8-reales-1740-30-mo-mf-au-details-private-countermark-ngc-/a/3108-32482.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515
I would say modern based on the stamp, I would guess 1970s around.
I just put it together from scratch. California Coins
Vintage site: JayCoinShop.com (Both same stuff just different flavors?) #numismaticmetals
Make some stupid offers now. https://collectorscorner.com/dealer/default.aspx?dealerId=1045&pt=1
My only point would be recent chops would leave raw metal on either the impression side or the reciprocal side. Fresh metal is hard to hide without altering the entire coin which leaves detectable remnants.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Thanks for the astute comments.
Neither TPG guarantees the authenticity of chopmarks, nor claims to. That would be an impossible task. When they see chopmarks that they find clearly suspicious or false they may reject them, but buying chopmarked coins in holders with the idea that the chops themselves have been authenticated is a mistake.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
TPGs don’t care about when the chop was applied. It’s damage to them. No TPG is claiming a chopmark is “vintage”. Do you expect TPGs to determine how long ago a love token was engraved?
I know this wasn't your question but just because it came up while this thread was top of mind....anything is possible.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I HAVE COLLECTED US PHILIPPINES SINCE1975. (49 YRS).
Yes small date chopped pesos are very rare.
In the 80'S at the Long Beach show at a dealers table/case, lee's collectibles (now deceased).
I examined two separate cases filled with piles of small and large date Philippine chopped pesos. he had them separated by size.
I Bought a few large date ones. The small date ones were not in what I thought very nice condition, pretty beat up.
so I passed. regretted it ever since. These were Only ones I ever saw over my 50 years till these showed up on eBay.
Were they from this hoard coming to light now? and were they chop counterfeited as some above propose.
Strange that that what I saw, and I looked at all of them were not nice coins and a lot of the chops were not clean.
very different visually from the large size ones which I was able to pick out some nice looking ones quickly.
I remember looking in the " small ones" pile along time to find a nice one, I finally gave up, no one cared back then they looked upon them as interesting but melt.
Draw your own conclusions.