How to count reeds on a reeded edge?

hummingbird_coins

Someone said on Coin Talk that a surefire way to identify an 1885 proof Morgan dollar is if it has 179 reeds. But I don't know the best way to go about this. I am sure if I try to do it with my fingernail, I will lose count at some point, or forget where I started. Is there any other way to do this? Does anyone have experience with doing this?

jonathanb

Painfully.

Seriously, the best approach is to take a photo with the coin balanced in the center of a parabolic mirror. Take the light bulb out of a flashlight and put the coin in. Then take a picture looking straight down. The edge will "unwrap". Print out the picture and you can mark it up with a pen.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/893320/occ-reed-counting-updated-12-4-13

TomB

Here is a link from a discussion about a dozen years ago on the topic. Scroll down a bit for images. Good luck!

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/845366/reed-counting

hummingbird_coins

Unfortunately the coin I was trying to count reeds on was not a proof. The same thread on Coin Talk mentioned that Morgan proofs don't have wire rims, and my coin was heavily toned, so it was hard to tell without counting the reeds.

Different question regarding the same coin: Can prooflike coins be dipped and retain their prooflike fields?

TomB

Yes, you can dip a PL coin and have it retain PL characteristics.

messydesk

@hummingbird_coins said:
Someone said on Coin Talk that a surefire way to identify an 1885 proof Morgan dollar is if it has 179 reeds.

While 179 is the correct reed count for a proof, it's easier to check to see if you have VAM 31 or 38 first.

But I don't know the best way to go about this. I am sure if I try to do it with my fingernail, I will lose count at some point, or forget where I started. Is there any other way to do this? Does anyone have experience with doing this?

I try to avoid it, as it's tedious and error-prone. You can use your fingernail, a piece of paper, a spudger, a guitar pick, or the like to click off the reeds as you go around. Just remember where you started so you don't to the end and then think, "wait, was that 189 or 190?" What might work well is rolling the coin on a carbonless form, a piece of tracing paper (sewing supplies), or vintage carbon paper and measuring reed spacing with a caliper under a microscope. You could also print out a measuring gauge with lots of different reed spacings and see what lines up best. What does work well is photographing the coin in a reflector, printing it out, and then using a pen to count them off.

Note that for middle-date O-mint Morgans, this might not work well, as many tend to have sections with overlapping reeds out of phase with each other.

alefzero

@messydesk said:

What does work well is photographing the coin in a reflector, printing it out, and then using a pen to count them off.

Yeah. When you have a flashlight break, salvage the "parabolic" reflector. It is perfect for photographing a raw coin and capturing the edge as well.

Wolf359

Mark the first reed at the middle top of the obverse with a pencil and go...count each reed with the sharp pencil point you have.

You can repeat on the reverse to verify what you get.

It's easy. And yes, I have verified Morgan proofs I found in the wild (1889 proof). Even Leroy said it was not. However, PCGS did...so...because the 1889 can have a very weak strike, but the PL Surface and Reed count was absolute...my note to PCGS was accepted.

Wolf359

Wolf359

DelawareDoons

@Wolf359 said:

That's pretty obviously a proof from the strike, fields and denticles. Don't need to count reeds for that imho.

hummingbird_coins

@Wolf359 said:
Mark the first reed at the middle top of the obverse with a pencil and go...count each reed with the sharp pencil point you have.

You can repeat on the reverse to verify what you get.

It's easy. And yes, I have verified Morgan proofs I found in the wild (1889 proof). Even Leroy said it was not. However, PCGS did...so...because the 1889 can have a very weak strike, but the PL Surface and Reed count was absolute...my note to PCGS was accepted.

1. Do you mean denticles, not reeds? Denticles are on the rim and reeds are on the edge.
2. I suppose using a pencil to mark where you start could be helpful because you could just erase in a tiny spot once you're done, but why count with the pencil tip? That seems like a hazard of scratching/discoloring the denticles or the coin itself.

SimonW

I would usually find a coin that had a known number of reeds, then match the coins up. If they’re the same, you’d know the reed count.

Another way, if it’s not a super valuable coin, is to mark the edge with a graphite pencil and then roll it on a piece of paper, then count the marks. It’s important that you know where it starts and stops though.

I’ve done both with seated Liberty quarters. Free

yosclimber

[from the first linked thread]
The parabolic mirror, print an enlarged photo, and pen method on the photo is much simpler than marking the coin itself.
Either way, the coin needs to be out of a holder, of course.

messydesk

One other thing to note is that there are 150 denticles on either side of a Morgan Dollar. If a coin is in an edge-view holder, you can count how many reeds line up with 15 denticles and multiply by 10 to get close. Useful for where there are large differences in reed counts (1878, 1921). The 1921 Infrequent Reeding Morgans have 157 reeds compared to the normal 189. Without having multiple coins to compare reeds, this is easily checked by lining up reeds and denticles.

Elcontador

I stumbled upon a raw 1927 Australian Large Penny that looked to be MS 63 BN. There was a rare variety with an extra denticle. I think the normal coin had 168 or them, the rare Indian variety had 169. As it was not my coin, I told the owner about it and asked him what he wanted me to do with it. He said sell it as is, which is what I did. I didn't want to count the denticles anyway; I had no other coin with which I could match it up, etc.