Is there a large U.S. coin collector base on the west coast of the U.S.?
Jacques_Loungecoque
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For those in the know, is there a large U.S. coin collecting base on the west coast of the continental United States? I’m asking as I have absolutely no idea and I’m curious why such large numismatic organizations like our host, Stack’s Bowers, and MANY prominent and elite dealers are based in California?
I know Cali is a hot topic around here, but please, putting that aside can someone fill me in? I’m asking from a purely numismatic business approach. Is there such a large contingent of collectors that organizations feel the need to be based there? The business climate appears highly unfavorable if not outright hostile as far as taxation. I’m trying to see the benefit of the locale given the difficulties, when other states offer significant tax and pro-business advantages.
Again, please keep this business related. It benefits all of us to understand the nuances of this field we’re in.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Comments
There's a west coast? Kidding.
How would it not make sense? If you think about it CA has 1/10 of the US population. Then add surrounding states and yes it makes sense.
I'm in NV just for clarity.
bob
I live in California, I'm a coin collector, and I'm large.
/rimshot
Yes, there are many collectors here, and likely higher dollar collectors than the average locale as income/wealth is much higher here than average. Every show I go to is jam packed and there are many storefront coin shops that have been doing well for a long time. Also, there is no sales tax on numismatic/PM purchases greater than $2k (was $1500 for a long time, going up to $2500 soon I think).
Despite the negativity, whether deserved or not, living here is pretty great. And if the people that run the businesses and/or their employees like living here or the positives outweigh the negatives then here they stay. Clearly they're still able to be profitable at a high level or else they would have moved.
That being said, this is a very difficult state to start a new business in. It's highly over regulated, high taxes, and in general fairly business unfriendly. But, in general, I don't think it's any surprise that I think the positives greatly outweigh the negatives.
Regardless of what people say about California we have 40M people and I think we’re the 5th largest economy in the world.
PCGS could be in the Antarctica and I would still send my coins to them. However, they should relocate to Texas and save me some shipping costs and them some grief.
Just from a business perspective, I don't know why any business that didn't depend on foot traffic would be located in California. I guess they like paying some of the highest business, sales, and income tax rates in the country, which probably eats up at least an extra 15% of their revenue if not more. At some point, it's just stupid. Even Dansco figured it out and closed shop in LA.
I completely understand that California is a densely populated and affluent area as far as collectors are concerned, but I echo @Manifest_Destiny about the ramifications of doing business there.
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You're not wrong but, even in business, the decision is not always about money. It's not an exact comparison, people vs businesses but in my work, my clients are all anywhere from affluent to wealthy. 100% of them could afford to live in any state they choose and the vast majority would save a significant amount of money. Many are business owners. My clients and I have had this conversation many times. Every single person chooses not to move because of a combination of family& friends and because they like it here.
It's just like putting a significant amount of money into coins. It doesn't really make sense but it makes the collector happy so they make a decision that maximizes their happiness but is not the best financial decision.
There are 57 Fortune 500 companies in California, the highest in US. So it make sense that more collectors in ca than other states.
I spent 31 years in Ca. but when I retired I just couldn't see myself staying there.
Yes, I miss the weather but I don't miss the taxes, traffic, crime,ect.
In todays world you don't have to have a BM in Ca. to be able to conduct business, so it does suprise me why they all stay and put up with it all.
Now I live in a state where it costs half as much to live and without all the problems
JMO
Mike
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Would of liked to have heard EOC's take on this.
I am curently living in Cali for several months for work. Ive been by a couple stores and there seems to be a healthy collector base out here.
If you forget about the cost of living and idiot politicians for a moment, Cali is a really nice place to live. Lots of things to do. Great variety of places to go between the many beaches and mountains. Weather is great. For many people, those benefits offset the downsides. Its all how you value your lifestlye.
Having said that, to me, the cost of living and taxes by themselves are a deal breaker, and I cant wait to leave.
It makes sense for a large company to be located in an area where people generally want to live, because it will be easier to hire a large base of employees - especially in an industry that requires niche skills that are unlikely to be found in great quantities in the population of any one particular area (meaning hired employees will likely have to be sourced from other areas). More numismatists are likely to be sourced from or willing to move to California than sourced from or willing to move to, say, Wyoming.
There are also many rich clients in CA, and the larger companies tend to be near major transport hubs, which makes it convenient for clientele to visit from elsewhere in the country or abroad. Many of the states that are more tax-friendly don’t have high populations or any major transport hubs.
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So he could get banned again???
Tax headaches aside, there would be some benefit to being close to so many big coin businesses. You could lot view more easily at Stacks and GC and drop off submissions at PCGS as well as consignments at Stacks and GC. This doesn't even mention the face-to-face contacts you could cultivate (if that means anything these days).
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Face-to-face? Ha! I’ll just have someone from my TEAM reach out to you. Actually, just have someone on your team reach out to someone on my team and maybe then we can play ball?!
Later that evening, The wife asks, did you get that big deal? Golden.
Don’t forget that Heritage has an office in Beverly Hills
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Some outstanding replies so far and I appreciate everyone carefully trying to toe that political line to have a decent discourse. Believe me folks, I know it can be hard!
I’m starting to hear a lot of what I kinda figured. I know Cali is an absolute geographical and environmental wonder. I’d like to visit one day. I see that even those with a strong love for the place do recognize the business environment is rough and I appreciate that honesty. It’s all sides being honest that will one day finally solve all our stupid problems.
I did notice the mention of Cali being a massive economy, 5th I believe. However in fairness, one-eyed, three legged dogs could pull that off. Being geographically located nearest our Asian neighbors, where all our stuff comes from, and with all those ports, is an automatic winner.
Being a once again private company our host’s owners can conduct their operation wherever they want and I respect that. Being a despicable Floridian it would be soooo much easier, quicker, and somewhat cheaper for me to go ATS. But, when you want the best you go where they’re at!
(Even if they’re located in Antarctica 😉)
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I thought Stacks Bowers were in New Hampshire on Lake Winnipesaukee. LOL!
😉
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Isn't/wasn't Stacks-Bowers in NY ?
Cheers!!
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I guess technically they’re in a few places.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I'd venture that the overwhelming majority of those CA businesses were started before 1990 when California started to hemmorage businsses and taxpayers. CA boomed after WWII for decades as defense businesses sprang up and the cost of business was MUCH LOWER than other states. That ceased to be a plus in the last 20-30 years.
I doubt you would see too many people starting a B&M business for coins in CA today. Overhead and costs just too high unless they had a very exclusive and wealthy clientele (Silicon Valley and the surrounding area ?).
Beware the Doom Loop.
12% of all coin collectors live in CA because 12% of all people live in CA.
I'm not sure what mystery we're trying to solve.
Friends of mine who live in Florida wonder when I will be moving. Even though we have problems here it’s unlikely I’ll be leaving. I have lived in the same house for 25 years so my living expenses are very modest. Yes, gas and electricity are more expensive in California than anywhere else and I pay a 12% state income tax. But I live 15 minutes from the beach, the weather is great here most of the year, I’m halfway between LA and San Diego and 250 miles from Las Vegas, and I have world class skiing close by. I do feel for the young ones. I have no idea how they will ever own a house unless they live inland and it’s 100 degrees for five straight months.
But, when you want the best you go where they’re at!
So your sending your coins to VA now.
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The collector population is almost certainly not evenly distributed across the country due to the differing demographic propensity to collect. If it is, it will be coincidence.
Based solely on age demographics, I would tend to believe that Florida might have the highest amount of collectors per capita.
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Other than age, what demographic propensity exists? Income?
Median age for the entire country is 39. The oldest state has a median of 45 and the youngest state has a median of 35.
Income has a wider range but you'd need to consider cost of living. The national median is $69,000 with the highest being $90k (Maryland, MA, NJ) and the lowest being Mississippi at $48,000. But MD, MA and NJ are all top 10 for cost of living and Mississippi is cheapest.
So, barring any actual demographic data to the contrary, I'm comfortable assuming that normal statistics applies to a population of 330 million.
They do have the most boats per capita.
https://www.zippia.com/coin-collector-jobs/demographics/
https://www.zippia.com/coin-collector-jobs/demographics/
FWIW I sell a little bit on eBay in the Coins & Paper Money category. Last year, 9.2% of my sales came from CA and that accounted for 17.9% of gross revenue. NY and FL were the next largest in terms of gross revenue, but pretty far behind CA. It would be interesting to see data from high volume sellers (on eBay or elsewhere).
9.2% would be less than expected based on population alone.
Is that by $ or by number of sales?
I don't know where they all live but lots more Denver BU rolls are set aside over the years than Philly. Of course though Philly quality tends to be bad enough to discourage hoarding.
I've always believed that the coasts and midwest account for the lion's share of coin collectors in this country and California is more active than Oregon and Washington.
Not clear how this link is supposed to demonstrate the point you seem to be making. It doesn't have a geographical breakdown that I saw which was the point of my last post.
Seems logical but not necessarily.
Gold bugs, hard-money advocates, and (distant cousins) numismatists and collectors are more likely to be in non-coastal states and/or in more rural areas. So I doubt California is 1/12th of the collecting totals.
Ebay and HA can probably verify this with the location of most of their registered database and online active users. I see more and more rural hoards turning up as opposed to SDBs in large metropolitan areas. You're more likely to have a coin club or an informal gathering of collectors in rural areas than in the Beverly Hills or Palo Alto sections of CA.
No, not age. Race or ethnicity. There is a huge variation in the collector population from both. Your link shows this too, though I disagree with what it implies. If California's population distribution roughly resembles or is overweight the demographic groups who collect most, then I agree with you. I don't know either way not having compared the reported percentages to census records.
It also depends upon someone's definition of "collector". I read through your link and don't believe the stats are particularly relevant to this thread. If 8.3% of the collector population is actually African-American, it's almost certainly out of pocket change or (really) low budget collecting. I've never seen, read, or heard any evidence or indication to support that this demographic collects anywhere near to this extent where it's financially meaningful. It supposedly approximates their population representation in some years. Not just or even primarily due to economics, but lack of interest due to cultural reasons. I also see no basis to believe African-American participation is 3X+ "Asian". I consider it nonsensical.
For "Hispanics", there is almost certainly a huge variation within this group too. Some might consider me "Hispanic" due to my surname but culturally I'm not. There also isn't hardly any collecting in most of the countries where these people come from relevant to this thread. In most of these countries, there isn't what most on this forum would consider a "coin market" at all. It's my inference that of the (very) low proportion who do, most are of European heritage but it's not something I can prove.
As for economic affluence or lack of it, no amount of affluence will turn someone into a collector who lacks interest. There is no lack of money because collecting doesn't require spending large amounts and lower income groups have money for other discretionary purchases.
It wasn't demonstrating any particular point. It was the only collector-specific data I found. Interestingly, however, it seems to mirror the overall US demographics for race. It leans male and older than the US as a whole with a below average income.
But you are looking at one segment that may not be the largest. It also assumes without evidence that hard money folks are concentrated geographically. I don't know that to be true.
Again, I find little data to suggest any specific demographic bias. So I still see no reason to assume anything but normal statistics.
In France in the 1920's and 1930's (continuing down the decades as they held their booty), the distribution would have been skewed tremendously to the lesser-populated rural areas. These are the people who held gold coins as disaster insurance against 1914 and 1939.
The academic literature and the articles from the 1920's and 1930's confirm: France, alone among European countries, was THE hoarder of gold and most of her citizens doing the hoarding were not in Paris or the metropolitan areas but the rural areas. Peasants, farmers, etc. were the major holders.
That's interesting. I don't know very much of the context but France had/has a bunch of mints. For my one French issue (which was 150 years before the World Wars), I believe there were something like 15 mints. Curious if the proliferation of mints had something to do with the predilection of rural folk to hold gold.
It is THE subject of most of the causes of The Depression and the tie-in to the Gold Standard. The amount of gold hoarding (see below) by France and French citizens was astounding. It's why we have so many Double Eagles well-preserved.
The psyche of the French after WWI is easy to explain but I am not as sure on their hoarding of gold prior to WW I. No major wars but could have been some currency or inflation problems.
Some very fascinating and deep lines of thought have been presented and given me quite a bit to think about. If there’s anyone out there representing a major numismatic company, with access to data, I’d love to know non-specific information regarding the percentage of business California makes up for you. I’d imagine this would be readily available data, previously aggregated for marketing. Maybe I’m pipe dreaming, but I think this is what’ll be needed to lead to more certainty and less informed conjecture.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Absolutely. Strong collector base on west coast. Big spenders at shows here, attendance is strong. They are seeking coins that are PQ, brilliant, super luster, and wellstruck.
There are a lot of big money there like gravity they support the industry.
I agree! Shocking!
I just don't know why those east coast collectors prefer coins that are over-graded, lifeless, dull, and mushy. I'll make sure to take a survey at the ANA to get to the bottom of it.
A different and hopefully direct answer to the OP . . .
Yes. I am considering that the West Coast is a bit more than just CA.
I do a lot (for me--a small minnow) of business in OR. Florence, McMinnville, Salem, etc. Mainly due to my relationship with an older dealer (and now a newer dealer) from the Pacific Northwest. Here I am in Utah, a curious coin desert of sorts. We have a couple of shows per year with a population along the Wasatch Front of about a million+ . . . but OR has a near-weekly show at some podunk rodeo grounds year-round! Not bad shows either! I speak therefor from experience.
I can hang out in Salt Lake and regale tire-kickers twice a year . . . or I could travel to any backwater pine-encrusted 1960's town hall in OR, almost any week, and sell my inventory!
Oh . . .and I am aware of at least one major player/wholesaler from the east coast that travels across the country just to hit these local-yokel OR shows. 'They' seem to do quite well . . . . .
There are plenty of shows, collectors, and active sites even north of CA . . . along the West Coast.
Plenty of posters here may echo my thoughts (@Moparmonster) . . . or maybe they will not, hoping to keep the secret to themselves.
Drunner
So, @DRUNNER are you going to be at the Salt Lake (Sandy) coin show tomorrow and Saturday?
Wow! Some great insights here, Drunner. I just hadn’t ever envisioned Oregon as such a banging coin state. Thank you for your knowledge.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.