@Mistlin said:
I have given you plenty of information to make a decision. You just don't like the outcome.
Batting average, BY ITSELF, is an incomplete statistic, as a WALK gets you on base but doesn't count towards batting average. You don't get it and you never will.
Anyone with half a brain knows that OBP is a more complete evaluation than BA.
Batting average is incomplete, but why are you stopping there when you tout advanced stats?
His OPS+ for his young career so far is 99. That is a tad below average. That is certainly special compared to the fan watching, but it isn't special at the MLB level. it is average.
So a guy with a league average OPS+ is special, but a pitcher who ranks in the top 20 all time in run prevention(adjusted pitching runs above average) is not HOF worthy?? lol.
Bobby Witt will be better from this year and going forward. Witt is better already.
That’s what I couldn’t figure out. He thinks i look at batting avg. alone which is false but he’s the one who only gives me batting avg and OBP and I’m supposed to pick the more
valuable batter. I at least need slug. percentage and ops to make a decision but he only looks at OBP.
The real answer is that he is trying to paint a narrative by highlighting something to possibly help his stance and then completely ignoring the stuff that absolutely obliterates his stance. He most likely has learned this from watching The View and friends.
@Mistlin said:
I have given you plenty of information to make a decision. You just don't like the outcome.
Batting average, BY ITSELF, is an incomplete statistic, as a WALK gets you on base but doesn't count towards batting average. You don't get it and you never will.
Anyone with half a brain knows that OBP is a more complete evaluation than BA.
Batting average is incomplete, but why are you stopping there when you tout advanced stats?
His OPS+ for his young career so far is 99. That is a tad below average. That is certainly special compared to the fan watching, but it isn't special at the MLB level. it is average.
So a guy with a league average OPS+ is special, but a pitcher who ranks in the top 20 all time in run prevention(adjusted pitching runs above average) is not HOF worthy?? lol.
Bobby Witt will be better from this year and going forward. Witt is better already.
That’s what I couldn’t figure out. He thinks i look at batting avg. alone which is false but he’s the one who only gives me batting avg and OBP and I’m supposed to pick the more
valuable batter. I at least need slug. percentage and ops to make a decision but he only looks at OBP.
@Mistlin said:
I have given you plenty of information to make a decision. You just don't like the outcome.
Batting average, BY ITSELF, is an incomplete statistic, as a WALK gets you on base but doesn't count towards batting average. You don't get it and you never will.
Anyone with half a brain knows that OBP is a more complete evaluation than BA.
Batting average is incomplete, but why are you stopping there when you tout advanced stats?
His OPS+ for his young career so far is 99. That is a tad below average. That is certainly special compared to the fan watching, but it isn't special at the MLB level. it is average.
So a guy with a league average OPS+ is special, but a pitcher who ranks in the top 20 all time in run prevention(adjusted pitching runs above average) is not HOF worthy?? lol.
Bobby Witt will be better from this year and going forward. Witt is better already.
That’s what I couldn’t figure out. He thinks i look at batting avg. alone which is false but he’s the one who only gives me batting avg and OBP and I’m supposed to pick the more
valuable batter. I at least need slug. percentage and ops to make a decision but he only looks at OBP.
Ok, if that's the avenue you want to go down.
They have IDENTICAL slugging percentages.
Now, PICK A BATTER.
At least that helps, I would take the one with the higher OBP in the example you gave if Slug% is the same. But that’s kind of obvious to anyone knowledgeable about baseball stats. I’m really confused about why you would ask that.
@Mistlin said:
I have given you plenty of information to make a decision. You just don't like the outcome.
Batting average, BY ITSELF, is an incomplete statistic, as a WALK gets you on base but doesn't count towards batting average. You don't get it and you never will.
Anyone with half a brain knows that OBP is a more complete evaluation than BA.
Batting average is incomplete, but why are you stopping there when you tout advanced stats?
His OPS+ for his young career so far is 99. That is a tad below average. That is certainly special compared to the fan watching, but it isn't special at the MLB level. it is average.
So a guy with a league average OPS+ is special, but a pitcher who ranks in the top 20 all time in run prevention(adjusted pitching runs above average) is not HOF worthy?? lol.
Bobby Witt will be better from this year and going forward. Witt is better already.
That’s what I couldn’t figure out. He thinks i look at batting avg. alone which is false but he’s the one who only gives me batting avg and OBP and I’m supposed to pick the more
valuable batter. I at least need slug. percentage and ops to make a decision but he only looks at OBP.
Ok, if that's the avenue you want to go down.
They have IDENTICAL slugging percentages.
Now, PICK A BATTER.
What kind of bizarre liberal math are you using to elevate his 99 OPS+ into something that is special? You are acting as if he even has a great OB%(which he doesn't).
If you want to use his OB% instead of his batting average, then go ahead. His MLB OB% is currently .311.
.311. That isn't good. Certainly not special, and it seems to be the one hitting measurement you are hanging your hat on, lol.
Your narrative building didn't work. It never does to an objective eye in any venue.
Edited to add his OPS+ is 98. It went down since the other day.
1948swell- he seems to think the one and only thing I judge a hitter on is batting avg., which is false.
As a fan of kc of course I’ve always followed Salvador Perez and he has always been a free swinger, never selective enough. So I do know the value of a walk contrary to what mistlin thinks.
Salvy’s BA is just fine but OBP is bad because he doesn’t draw enough walks.
@Mistlin instead of digging yourself into deeper holes in your horrible analysis, maybe just back track and say "while Elly De la Cruz has had his struggles at the plate, he possesses massive raw power and elite speed, and maybe one day he COULD be something special if he becomes a better hitter."
Then just walk away and try again when you have a clear neutral non bias mind that thinks for himself and not what The View tells you to think. Was De la Cruz a guest on The View and that is why you are using that strange formula to elevate him higher than he really is?
De la Cruz really struggles vs left handed pitchers, badly. That, in conjunction with his bat to balls skills limiting him, he will be subject to some prolonged slumps and truncated hot steaks.
He has stuff to overcome, and he could, but his floor is most likely to be reached more so than his ceiling is.
Then once he gets his first muscle pull in his leg, and it compounds, he will have that to deal with as well, limiting some of his leg work for hits and extra bases and relying even more on his bat.
I think you maybe misinterpreted that 'identical slugging' thing. I thought that he was asking, essentially, all things considered, would you pick OBP over BA or BA over OBP. We have certainly gone to the limits of abstraction here.
The Salvy comparison is a good one. Perez seems to still do well making contact with an extended zone. Perez is now known as a free-swinger with loose plate-discipline, but he did change his swing significantly in 2021. While that affected his BA and OBP it also brought him into focus as one of the best offensive catchers in the league. I think his swing was covered on one of the MLB channel shows. Kind of put him on a HOF trajectory from there.
I think you maybe misinterpreted that 'identical slugging' thing. I thought that he was asking, essentially, all things considered, would you pick OBP over BA or BA over OBP. We have certainly gone to the limits of abstraction here.
The Salvy comparison is a good one. Perez seems to still do well making contact with an extended zone. Perez is now known as a free-swinger with loose plate-discipline, but he did change his swing significantly in 2021. While that affected his BA and OBP it also brought him into focus as one of the best offensive catchers in the league. I think his swing was covered on one of the MLB channel shows. Kind of put him on a HOF trajectory from there.
Yes, I know what he was asking, and it had no bearing on his promotion of De La Cruz as something special. In fact, it actually hurts his case because his OB% isn't good. He was using some sort of convoluted approach so that one can ignore the total sum of a 99 career OPS+.
He went on and expressed the use of some advanced measures, which was good....but not good that he completely ignored the advanced measures in his assessment of Curt Schilling and instead simply resorted to no Cy Young awards, lol. So it is pretty evident that he works with bias as his primary motivation.
In the end, Cruz has improved some this year over last. He is not special right now(in MLB terms). He also asked which young player was more special. Two young guys from Cruz's same position are well ahead of Cruz right now...Gunnar and Witt. So why would he not elevate those two guys over Cruz?
Leading the league (by far) in stolen bases would indicate otherwise.
But from reading the posts, it's clear the OP's biggest issue isn't the publicity is receiving, but his team's player (Witt) not receiving enough in his eyes.
Everyone wins when the sport gets more popular - but somehow, you want to gatekeep and knock down anyone who gets more publicity and hype than you think they deserve.
Everyone wins when the sport gets more popular - but somehow, you want to gatekeep and knock down anyone who gets more publicity and hype than you think they deserve.
Sad world you all live in.
Now apply that logic to the Caitlin Clark thread lol. Why are you always flip flopping when it comes to stuff like that? Where is your outrage toward the WNBA players who are abusing Clark because she gets all the publicity?
Cruz is not near the level of Witt or Gunnar. If that qualifies him as special, so be it. He is far down on the list of MLB SS rankings right now, regardless if he leads in SB. Leading in stolen bases does not equate to someone having a 180 OPS+ even if the 180 OPS+ isn't league leading.
Leading the league (by far) in stolen bases would indicate otherwise.
But from reading the posts, it's clear the OP's biggest issue isn't the publicity is receiving, but his team's player (Witt) not receiving enough in his eyes.
Everyone wins when the sport gets more popular - but somehow, you want to gatekeep and knock down anyone who gets more publicity and hype than you think they deserve.
Sad world you all live in.
No that’s not it. 😂Witt and Gunnar receive all kinds of attention. I watch mlb network a lot and trust me both those players are mentioned a lot.
Way to try to switch tactics when you don’t know what you’re talking about. Ever thought about politics as a vocation?
By the way I mention a lot of players on this board. Along with Witt, Gunnar, Judge (who I just started a thread about), mookie etc.
And sorry to dissapoint you mistlin but I have mentioned both Corbin Carroll and Julio Rodriguez and said I hope both break out of their slumps. Julio is fine except for not hitting for much power yet. And every time Corbin has a 3 hit game it seems like he follows that with 0-8 or similar. So I root for both those guys. They have both shown in the past they can be very good at the plate. Elly hasn’t shown that yet but certainly has the potential. I would love to see him become a more complete hitter, I would actually like to see how many bases he could steal in a season and of course a higher batting avg. would help.
Update time on Corbin Carroll. I didn’t realize he had 3 hits last night, his BA is up to .213 which is a great improvement over the .188-.192 range he was stuck in for a long time. I see his last 5 games he’s done very well so hopefully this is the breakout. And if he stays hot he could get those numbers up to a respectable level by the all star break.
His OPS+ has already gone from around 58 to 78.
BA now at .232 and SO's up to 89. Going from bad to worse.
i'm not rooting against him, I couldn't care less either way. But if he's batting over .250 by the end of the season, i'll be surprised.
It's not even debatable that pitchers now have his number. His batting coach needs to quickly and diligently work with him, try something new, because whatever they're doing now, it's obviously not working.
If he's "really" got the talent as some think, then he will be able to make the adjustments and have a good career. If not, then his baseball cards won't be worth the ink they're printed on.
Steve I would put money on Corbin Carroll’s batting avg. being higher than Elly’s at the end of the season.
Corbin’s confidence has to be sky high after having a couple 3 hit games and a 2 hit game in the last 5 games. He may be getting it dialed in. And he hit .285 last year with good power.
Elly is still lost at the plate and so far showing no signs of adjusting to major league pitching.
Everyone wins when the sport gets more popular - but somehow, you want to gatekeep and knock down anyone who gets more publicity and hype than you think they deserve.
Sad world you all live in.
Now apply that logic to the Caitlin Clark thread lol. Why are you always flip flopping when it comes to stuff like that? Where is your outrage toward the WNBA players who are abusing Clark because she gets all the publicity?
Cruz is not near the level of Witt or Gunnar. If that qualifies him as special, so be it. He is far down on the list of MLB SS rankings right now, regardless if he leads in SB. Leading in stolen bases does not equate to someone having a 180 OPS+ even if the 180 OPS+ isn't league leading.
What are you on about?
Suggesting that fans not getting excited about and promoting players like Elly in ANY WAY equates to high-profile rookies getting hazed is a Grand Canyon-sized leap.
Lebron definitely saw his share of hard fouls in his rookie year. More recently, Wembanyama did as well this past season. They aren't "abusing Clar because she gets all the publicity" despite what either your sports or political talking heads tell you.
I never claimed that Elly was near the level of Witt or Gunnar. Please find that quote for me, but I will save you the time: I never said it. I also never equated leading the league in stolen bases to 180 OPS+ either.
You seem to have a real problem with reading comprehension and making absurd leaps to (I guess?) support your flawed logic.
I will leave this thread with this: young, exciting players are GOOD for the game. Elly has flaws, absolutely (I never claimed otherwise). What's bad for the game is old fogeys trying to stomp down enthusiasm for the game.
Everyone wins when the sport gets more popular - but somehow, you want to gatekeep and knock down anyone who gets more publicity and hype than you think they deserve.
Sad world you all live in.
Now apply that logic to the Caitlin Clark thread lol. Why are you always flip flopping when it comes to stuff like that? Where is your outrage toward the WNBA players who are abusing Clark because she gets all the publicity?
Cruz is not near the level of Witt or Gunnar. If that qualifies him as special, so be it. He is far down on the list of MLB SS rankings right now, regardless if he leads in SB. Leading in stolen bases does not equate to someone having a 180 OPS+ even if the 180 OPS+ isn't league leading.
What are you on about?
Suggesting that fans not getting excited about and promoting players like Elly in ANY WAY equates to high-profile rookies getting hazed is a Grand Canyon-sized leap.
Lebron definitely saw his share of hard fouls in his rookie year. More recently, Wembanyama did as well this past season. They aren't "abusing Clar because she gets all the publicity" despite what either your sports or political talking heads tell you.
I never claimed that Elly was near the level of Witt or Gunnar. Please find that quote for me, but I will save you the time: I never said it. I also never equated leading the league in stolen bases to 180 OPS+ either.
You seem to have a real problem with reading comprehension and making absurd leaps to (I guess?) support your flawed logic.
I will leave this thread with this: young, exciting players are GOOD for the game. Elly has flaws, absolutely (I never claimed otherwise). What's bad for the game is old fogeys trying to stomp down enthusiasm for the game.
Good luck with that jaded world view!
Reading comprehension works just fine. Tell me again about the advanced stats that you use for Elly but somehow ignore then when it comes to Schilling? Why? Because you want to make it political.
Same for Caitlin Clark, she is the greatest thing for that game, far more than Elly is for MLB...yet you show outrage when people aren't fawning over Elly calling it a "Sad world you all live in" and "Old Fogeys" for us not giving him his just due(in your mind), but don't apply it to Clark for getting abused by the ladies in the league who are jealous of her.
I don't listen to talking heads. Sorry. Nice try. By your comments you certainly do.
In the game last night EDLC had two costly errors on ground balls at his feet which both led to runs. The second led to a rally which, batting a review overturning a safe call at the plate would have been a game tying rally in b9. Both times there was speed on the bases - the 2nd play he shouldn’t have even tried to turn the DP because he wasn’t going to get the runner.
Couple observations there.
First. It was fun to see EDLC get EDLC’d.
Second. Can’t boot plays at short like that and cost runs and keep your job long term.
@bgr said:
In the game last night EDLC had two costly errors on ground balls at his feet which both led to runs. The second led to a rally which, batting a review overturning a safe call at the plate would have been a game tying rally in b9. Both times there was speed on the bases - the 2nd play he shouldn’t have even tried to turn the DP because he wasn’t going to get the runner.
Couple observations there.
First. It was fun to see EDLC get EDLC’d.
Second. Can’t boot plays at short like that and cost runs and keep your job long term.
Seems like a trip to the minors may be coming soon.
It’s funny how going 5-7 (.714) can improve your other numbers so much. But everyone here is too sophisticated to look at batting avg. 😂
And a higher batting avg is the one thing that can turn Elly into a superstar. At .242 now and hopefully climbing.
Let’s list Elly’s skills
Power- very good
Speed- great
Drawing walks- very good
Arm strength- great
Fielding- 15 errors so needs work
OBP- at .340 now so very respectable and as previously mentioned more hits will improve this number.
Batting Avg.- this is the key statistic for Elly. Since his power is good, his ability to draw walks is good, it comes down to this stat that everyone frowns on. Get more hits and the kid is a superstar.
But yeah BA isn’t a key stat 🙄
@bgr said:
In the game last night EDLC had two costly errors on ground balls at his feet which both led to runs. The second led to a rally which, batting a review overturning a safe call at the plate would have been a game tying rally in b9. Both times there was speed on the bases - the 2nd play he shouldn’t have even tried to turn the DP because he wasn’t going to get the runner.
Couple observations there.
First. It was fun to see EDLC get EDLC’d.
Second. Can’t boot plays at short like that and cost runs and keep your job long term.
Seems like a trip to the minors may be coming soon.
Yeah, the team is going to send their leader in WAR and OPS to the minors.
I don't see the Reds sending him down either, but I also don't think he would start on the Brewers, Cubs, or Pirates at SS. He might be an upgrade for the Cards. He had a good game in the rubber match with the Crew - manufacturing 2 runs with his speed and no boots at SS. They still lost and that, but I guess he's not on the hook any longer for the 2 runs he cost them the night before that.
I get it though. He is fun to watch. His speed may have forced a couple bad throws... He certainly had the pitchers attention.
Went to second on a passed ball at 1b though I think they gave a E1. Bauers tried to be a little too quick on the slap tag and forgot the ball. EDLC is on 2nd.
For whatever reason, with 2 outs Rea cared about his dancing and attempted an inside move to 2nd when he really wasn't that far off the bag... threw it into center. EDLC didn't even slow down at 3rd and he easily beat the throw at home.
That stuff is exciting and he can be electric. But I have to balance that with all the lumps he's taking. I don't agree with others however as to his potential... I think he's going to be a star, but I fear he's always going to be a streaky hitter.
@bgr said:
In the game last night EDLC had two costly errors on ground balls at his feet which both led to runs. The second led to a rally which, batting a review overturning a safe call at the plate would have been a game tying rally in b9. Both times there was speed on the bases - the 2nd play he shouldn’t have even tried to turn the DP because he wasn’t going to get the runner.
Couple observations there.
First. It was fun to see EDLC get EDLC’d.
Second. Can’t boot plays at short like that and cost runs and keep your job long term.
Seems like a trip to the minors may be coming soon.
Yeah, the team is going to send their leader in WAR and OPS to the minors.
He's still not out of the woods yet.
I'm sure not planning on loading up on his rookie cards anytime soon. 😆
Hed be better off in the outfield where he would be playing on a good team. His speed and arm is pretty much wasted in the infield anyways.
They really cant send him down, streaky bat or not. Their owner was caught before the season saying they dont expect to and basically arent trying to win this year. Sending him down would be risky streaky bat or not other than for a rehab assignment
Hes very likely not a HOF player, but if this is all he is thats still a good career especially if hes moved to the OF where he would have a chance of being elite defensively instead of a bad SS
@bgr said:
In the game last night EDLC had two costly errors on ground balls at his feet which both led to runs. The second led to a rally which, batting a review overturning a safe call at the plate would have been a game tying rally in b9. Both times there was speed on the bases - the 2nd play he shouldn’t have even tried to turn the DP because he wasn’t going to get the runner.
Couple observations there.
First. It was fun to see EDLC get EDLC’d.
Second. Can’t boot plays at short like that and cost runs and keep your job long term.
Seems like a trip to the minors may be coming soon.
Yeah, the team is going to send their leader in WAR and OPS to the minors.
He's still not out of the woods yet.
I'm sure not planning on loading up on his rookie cards anytime soon. 😆
(a) I never said he was
(b) no one (not even me) suggested you should
Yet you made a statement a trip the minors may be coming soon, likely without looking at stats (and if you did, you stopped at batting average).
.236 could also be at or above the MLB average currently (I didn't look it up but it smells right). I think the only risk he has getting sent down is if his fielding issues became persistent. But that's because he's on the Reds. If he was on the Brewers, Cubs, or Pirates, he would either be at another position, or in the minors I suspect.
C'mon now. If you guys have learned anything at all from the "experts" that chime in on these threads, you should have learned that strikeouts don't matter one bit. In fact, the more often that a player strikes out, the more likely that he is an inner circle HOFer. A strikeout is actually a desired outcome because it avoids a double play (usually). And if a guy happens to take a lot of called third strikes? Oh boy! That's one of the greatest to ever do it, right there, I tell you what...
.
How interesting...Elly goes 3/5 with a massive home run, and crickets from the resident "experts" here.
.806 OPS and 2.4 WAR, and you all have him suggesting he should be shipped to the minors, only illustrating either how ignorant you are or jealous of his talent.
@Mistlin said:
How interesting...Elly goes 3/5 with a massive home run, and crickets from the resident "experts" here.
.806 OPS and 2.4 WAR, and you all have him suggesting he should be shipped to the minors, only illustrating either how ignorant you are or jealous of his talent.
Which is it?
He had a great game against the Bucs, and he's been playing well the last week.
I am jealous of his talent without a doubt - and specifically, his knees, elbows, and right shoulder which appear to function properly unlike mine.
I doubt he is sent down to the minors unless his defensive woes persist. The depth chart on the Reds as SS is not loaded. I don't actually have an issue with his offensive production at SS. I think that if he wants to be considered a great player he's going to have to start hitting more consistently, and I don't mean, for average. I mean, he can't be hitting .180 for a month and then solve it all with 2 weeks hitting over .300 for me to consider him great.
MLB is marketing him because he's marketable. I can see why some people think it's a little over the top considering there are a lot of young stars who are more deserving who are not seeing the same attention.
@Mistlin said:
How interesting...Elly goes 3/5 with a massive home run, and crickets from the resident "experts" here.
.806 OPS and 2.4 WAR, and you all have him suggesting he should be shipped to the minors, only illustrating either how ignorant you are or jealous of his talent.
Which is it?
Seriously?
Because I pointed out just a week ago that he went 5-7 and that improved the rest of his numbers significantly. Imagine that, hitting for a high average actually improves OBP, OPS etc. 🥳
@Mistlin said:
How interesting...Elly goes 3/5 with a massive home run, and crickets from the resident "experts" here.
.806 OPS and 2.4 WAR, and you all have him suggesting he should be shipped to the minors, only illustrating either how ignorant you are or jealous of his talent.
Which is it?
He had a great game against the Bucs, and he's been playing well the last week.
I am jealous of his talent without a doubt - and specifically, his knees, elbows, and right shoulder which appear to function properly unlike mine.
I doubt he is sent down to the minors unless his defensive woes persist. The depth chart on the Reds as SS is not loaded. I don't actually have an issue with his offensive production at SS. I think that if he wants to be considered a great player he's going to have to start hitting more consistently, and I don't mean, for average. I mean, he can't be hitting .180 for a month and then solve it all with 2 weeks hitting over .300 for me to consider him great.
MLB is marketing him because he's marketable. I can see why some people think it's a little over the top considering there are a lot of young stars who are more deserving who are not seeing the same attention.
I think you're making way too much out of this.
Seriously?
You honestly believe that his 'defensive woes' would send down the team's best hitter? In what world would that ever enter into your thought process, let alone express it?
You do know it is possible to market more than one player at once, right. Hating on a player for marketing (which they have no control over) is one of the most inane comments I have ever read.
@Mistlin said:
How interesting...Elly goes 3/5 with a massive home run, and crickets from the resident "experts" here.
.806 OPS and 2.4 WAR, and you all have him suggesting he should be shipped to the minors, only illustrating either how ignorant you are or jealous of his talent.
Which is it?
He had a great game against the Bucs, and he's been playing well the last week.
I am jealous of his talent without a doubt - and specifically, his knees, elbows, and right shoulder which appear to function properly unlike mine.
I doubt he is sent down to the minors unless his defensive woes persist. The depth chart on the Reds as SS is not loaded. I don't actually have an issue with his offensive production at SS. I think that if he wants to be considered a great player he's going to have to start hitting more consistently, and I don't mean, for average. I mean, he can't be hitting .180 for a month and then solve it all with 2 weeks hitting over .300 for me to consider him great.
MLB is marketing him because he's marketable. I can see why some people think it's a little over the top considering there are a lot of young stars who are more deserving who are not seeing the same attention.
I think you're making way too much out of this.
Seriously?
You honestly believe that his 'defensive woes' would send down the team's best hitter? In what world would that ever enter into your thought process, let alone express it?
You do know it is possible to market more than one player at once, right. Hating on a player for marketing (which they have no control over) is one of the most inane comments I have ever read.
Not unless they continue and become persistent. In this world.
I do. I don't even care. I can just rationalize what happens with my own perspective.
I don't hate EDLC or think he's not a good player. This isn't even an interesting discussion anymore.
Like it or not the strikeouts will catch up to him even if its not this year. You just cant punch out 250 times a year and have long term success. Theres countless players that had a couple good years punching out at rates like that and they were either bad or out of the league.
The thing that really isnt getting enough attention is that hes been atrocious against left handed pitching. Its still a small sample size but has gotten big enough its a concern
Comments
The real answer is that he is trying to paint a narrative by highlighting something to possibly help his stance and then completely ignoring the stuff that absolutely obliterates his stance. He most likely has learned this from watching The View and friends.
Ok, if that's the avenue you want to go down.
They have IDENTICAL slugging percentages.
Now, PICK A BATTER.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
At least that helps, I would take the one with the higher OBP in the example you gave if Slug% is the same. But that’s kind of obvious to anyone knowledgeable about baseball stats. I’m really confused about why you would ask that.
Stupid list…. Mistlin
What kind of bizarre liberal math are you using to elevate his 99 OPS+ into something that is special? You are acting as if he even has a great OB%(which he doesn't).
If you want to use his OB% instead of his batting average, then go ahead. His MLB OB% is currently .311.
.311. That isn't good. Certainly not special, and it seems to be the one hitting measurement you are hanging your hat on, lol.
Your narrative building didn't work. It never does to an objective eye in any venue.
Edited to add his OPS+ is 98. It went down since the other day.
1948swell- he seems to think the one and only thing I judge a hitter on is batting avg., which is false.
As a fan of kc of course I’ve always followed Salvador Perez and he has always been a free swinger, never selective enough. So I do know the value of a walk contrary to what mistlin thinks.
Salvy’s BA is just fine but OBP is bad because he doesn’t draw enough walks.
Stupid list…. Mistlin
@Mistlin instead of digging yourself into deeper holes in your horrible analysis, maybe just back track and say "while Elly De la Cruz has had his struggles at the plate, he possesses massive raw power and elite speed, and maybe one day he COULD be something special if he becomes a better hitter."
Then just walk away and try again when you have a clear neutral non bias mind that thinks for himself and not what The View tells you to think. Was De la Cruz a guest on The View and that is why you are using that strange formula to elevate him higher than he really is?
De la Cruz really struggles vs left handed pitchers, badly. That, in conjunction with his bat to balls skills limiting him, he will be subject to some prolonged slumps and truncated hot steaks.
He has stuff to overcome, and he could, but his floor is most likely to be reached more so than his ceiling is.
Then once he gets his first muscle pull in his leg, and it compounds, he will have that to deal with as well, limiting some of his leg work for hits and extra bases and relying even more on his bat.
@1948_Swell_Robinson
I think you maybe misinterpreted that 'identical slugging' thing. I thought that he was asking, essentially, all things considered, would you pick OBP over BA or BA over OBP. We have certainly gone to the limits of abstraction here.
@Darin
The Salvy comparison is a good one. Perez seems to still do well making contact with an extended zone. Perez is now known as a free-swinger with loose plate-discipline, but he did change his swing significantly in 2021. While that affected his BA and OBP it also brought him into focus as one of the best offensive catchers in the league. I think his swing was covered on one of the MLB channel shows. Kind of put him on a HOF trajectory from there.
Yes, I know what he was asking, and it had no bearing on his promotion of De La Cruz as something special. In fact, it actually hurts his case because his OB% isn't good. He was using some sort of convoluted approach so that one can ignore the total sum of a 99 career OPS+.
He went on and expressed the use of some advanced measures, which was good....but not good that he completely ignored the advanced measures in his assessment of Curt Schilling and instead simply resorted to no Cy Young awards, lol. So it is pretty evident that he works with bias as his primary motivation.
In the end, Cruz has improved some this year over last. He is not special right now(in MLB terms). He also asked which young player was more special. Two young guys from Cruz's same position are well ahead of Cruz right now...Gunnar and Witt. So why would he not elevate those two guys over Cruz?
"Not special"
Leading the league (by far) in stolen bases would indicate otherwise.
But from reading the posts, it's clear the OP's biggest issue isn't the publicity is receiving, but his team's player (Witt) not receiving enough in his eyes.
Everyone wins when the sport gets more popular - but somehow, you want to gatekeep and knock down anyone who gets more publicity and hype than you think they deserve.
Sad world you all live in.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
>
Now apply that logic to the Caitlin Clark thread lol. Why are you always flip flopping when it comes to stuff like that? Where is your outrage toward the WNBA players who are abusing Clark because she gets all the publicity?
Cruz is not near the level of Witt or Gunnar. If that qualifies him as special, so be it. He is far down on the list of MLB SS rankings right now, regardless if he leads in SB. Leading in stolen bases does not equate to someone having a 180 OPS+ even if the 180 OPS+ isn't league leading.
No that’s not it. 😂Witt and Gunnar receive all kinds of attention. I watch mlb network a lot and trust me both those players are mentioned a lot.
Way to try to switch tactics when you don’t know what you’re talking about. Ever thought about politics as a vocation?
Stupid list…. Mistlin
By the way I mention a lot of players on this board. Along with Witt, Gunnar, Judge (who I just started a thread about), mookie etc.
And sorry to dissapoint you mistlin but I have mentioned both Corbin Carroll and Julio Rodriguez and said I hope both break out of their slumps. Julio is fine except for not hitting for much power yet. And every time Corbin has a 3 hit game it seems like he follows that with 0-8 or similar. So I root for both those guys. They have both shown in the past they can be very good at the plate. Elly hasn’t shown that yet but certainly has the potential. I would love to see him become a more complete hitter, I would actually like to see how many bases he could steal in a season and of course a higher batting avg. would help.
Stupid list…. Mistlin
Update time on Corbin Carroll. I didn’t realize he had 3 hits last night, his BA is up to .213 which is a great improvement over the .188-.192 range he was stuck in for a long time. I see his last 5 games he’s done very well so hopefully this is the breakout. And if he stays hot he could get those numbers up to a respectable level by the all star break.
His OPS+ has already gone from around 58 to 78.
Stupid list…. Mistlin
BA now at .232 and SO's up to 89. Going from bad to worse.
i'm not rooting against him, I couldn't care less either way. But if he's batting over .250 by the end of the season, i'll be surprised.
It's not even debatable that pitchers now have his number. His batting coach needs to quickly and diligently work with him, try something new, because whatever they're doing now, it's obviously not working.
If he's "really" got the talent as some think, then he will be able to make the adjustments and have a good career. If not, then his baseball cards won't be worth the ink they're printed on.
Steve I would put money on Corbin Carroll’s batting avg. being higher than Elly’s at the end of the season.
Corbin’s confidence has to be sky high after having a couple 3 hit games and a 2 hit game in the last 5 games. He may be getting it dialed in. And he hit .285 last year with good power.
Elly is still lost at the plate and so far showing no signs of adjusting to major league pitching.
Stupid list…. Mistlin
What are you on about?
Suggesting that fans not getting excited about and promoting players like Elly in ANY WAY equates to high-profile rookies getting hazed is a Grand Canyon-sized leap.
Lebron definitely saw his share of hard fouls in his rookie year. More recently, Wembanyama did as well this past season. They aren't "abusing Clar because she gets all the publicity" despite what either your sports or political talking heads tell you.
I never claimed that Elly was near the level of Witt or Gunnar. Please find that quote for me, but I will save you the time: I never said it. I also never equated leading the league in stolen bases to 180 OPS+ either.
You seem to have a real problem with reading comprehension and making absurd leaps to (I guess?) support your flawed logic.
I will leave this thread with this: young, exciting players are GOOD for the game. Elly has flaws, absolutely (I never claimed otherwise). What's bad for the game is old fogeys trying to stomp down enthusiasm for the game.
Good luck with that jaded world view!
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
Reading comprehension works just fine. Tell me again about the advanced stats that you use for Elly but somehow ignore then when it comes to Schilling? Why? Because you want to make it political.
Same for Caitlin Clark, she is the greatest thing for that game, far more than Elly is for MLB...yet you show outrage when people aren't fawning over Elly calling it a "Sad world you all live in" and "Old Fogeys" for us not giving him his just due(in your mind), but don't apply it to Clark for getting abused by the ladies in the league who are jealous of her.
I don't listen to talking heads. Sorry. Nice try. By your comments you certainly do.
Well. Now that we got that sorted out. What’s the verdict? Do I need him for the HOF registry or not?
In the game last night EDLC had two costly errors on ground balls at his feet which both led to runs. The second led to a rally which, batting a review overturning a safe call at the plate would have been a game tying rally in b9. Both times there was speed on the bases - the 2nd play he shouldn’t have even tried to turn the DP because he wasn’t going to get the runner.
Couple observations there.
First. It was fun to see EDLC get EDLC’d.
Second. Can’t boot plays at short like that and cost runs and keep your job long term.
Seems like a trip to the minors may be coming soon.
It’s funny how going 5-7 (.714) can improve your other numbers so much. But everyone here is too sophisticated to look at batting avg. 😂
And a higher batting avg is the one thing that can turn Elly into a superstar. At .242 now and hopefully climbing.
Let’s list Elly’s skills
Power- very good
Speed- great
Drawing walks- very good
Arm strength- great
Fielding- 15 errors so needs work
OBP- at .340 now so very respectable and as previously mentioned more hits will improve this number.
Batting Avg.- this is the key statistic for Elly. Since his power is good, his ability to draw walks is good, it comes down to this stat that everyone frowns on. Get more hits and the kid is a superstar.
But yeah BA isn’t a key stat 🙄
Stupid list…. Mistlin
Yeah, the team is going to send their leader in WAR and OPS to the minors.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
I don't see the Reds sending him down either, but I also don't think he would start on the Brewers, Cubs, or Pirates at SS. He might be an upgrade for the Cards. He had a good game in the rubber match with the Crew - manufacturing 2 runs with his speed and no boots at SS. They still lost and that, but I guess he's not on the hook any longer for the 2 runs he cost them the night before that.
I get it though. He is fun to watch. His speed may have forced a couple bad throws... He certainly had the pitchers attention.
That stuff is exciting and he can be electric. But I have to balance that with all the lumps he's taking. I don't agree with others however as to his potential... I think he's going to be a star, but I fear he's always going to be a streaky hitter.
He's still not out of the woods yet.
I'm sure not planning on loading up on his rookie cards anytime soon. 😆
Hed be better off in the outfield where he would be playing on a good team. His speed and arm is pretty much wasted in the infield anyways.
They really cant send him down, streaky bat or not. Their owner was caught before the season saying they dont expect to and basically arent trying to win this year. Sending him down would be risky streaky bat or not other than for a rehab assignment
Hes very likely not a HOF player, but if this is all he is thats still a good career especially if hes moved to the OF where he would have a chance of being elite defensively instead of a bad SS
(a) I never said he was
(b) no one (not even me) suggested you should
Yet you made a statement a trip the minors may be coming soon, likely without looking at stats (and if you did, you stopped at batting average).
Just admit you were wrong.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
Oops - batting average down to .236
Get the suitcase ready Elly. LOL
.236 could also be at or above the MLB average currently (I didn't look it up but it smells right). I think the only risk he has getting sent down is if his fielding issues became persistent. But that's because he's on the Reds. If he was on the Brewers, Cubs, or Pirates, he would either be at another position, or in the minors I suspect.
Elly has got 97 strike outs already.
Perhaps some prescription eyeglasses are in order? 🤓
C'mon now. If you guys have learned anything at all from the "experts" that chime in on these threads, you should have learned that strikeouts don't matter one bit. In fact, the more often that a player strikes out, the more likely that he is an inner circle HOFer. A strikeout is actually a desired outcome because it avoids a double play (usually). And if a guy happens to take a lot of called third strikes? Oh boy! That's one of the greatest to ever do it, right there, I tell you what...
.
LOL
.
Imagine being this petty and jealous.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
How interesting...Elly goes 3/5 with a massive home run, and crickets from the resident "experts" here.
.806 OPS and 2.4 WAR, and you all have him suggesting he should be shipped to the minors, only illustrating either how ignorant you are or jealous of his talent.
Which is it?
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
He had a great game against the Bucs, and he's been playing well the last week.
I am jealous of his talent without a doubt - and specifically, his knees, elbows, and right shoulder which appear to function properly unlike mine.
I doubt he is sent down to the minors unless his defensive woes persist. The depth chart on the Reds as SS is not loaded. I don't actually have an issue with his offensive production at SS. I think that if he wants to be considered a great player he's going to have to start hitting more consistently, and I don't mean, for average. I mean, he can't be hitting .180 for a month and then solve it all with 2 weeks hitting over .300 for me to consider him great.
MLB is marketing him because he's marketable. I can see why some people think it's a little over the top considering there are a lot of young stars who are more deserving who are not seeing the same attention.
I think you're making way too much out of this.
Seriously?
Because I pointed out just a week ago that he went 5-7 and that improved the rest of his numbers significantly. Imagine that, hitting for a high average actually improves OBP, OPS etc. 🥳
Stupid list…. Mistlin
Seriously?
You honestly believe that his 'defensive woes' would send down the team's best hitter? In what world would that ever enter into your thought process, let alone express it?
You do know it is possible to market more than one player at once, right. Hating on a player for marketing (which they have no control over) is one of the most inane comments I have ever read.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
Not unless they continue and become persistent. In this world.
I do. I don't even care. I can just rationalize what happens with my own perspective.
I don't hate EDLC or think he's not a good player. This isn't even an interesting discussion anymore.
Funny that stevek has gone AWOL from the Elly hate-train:
.825 OPS
130 OPS+
40SB/15HR
2.9 WAR (21st)
all while still leading the league in strikeouts.
Funny how the haters disappear when their ill-fated narrative predictably falls apart.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin
Like it or not the strikeouts will catch up to him even if its not this year. You just cant punch out 250 times a year and have long term success. Theres countless players that had a couple good years punching out at rates like that and they were either bad or out of the league.
The thing that really isnt getting enough attention is that hes been atrocious against left handed pitching. Its still a small sample size but has gotten big enough its a concern
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the rhetorical narrative.