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Food for thought about the SGC acquisition..
olb31
Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭✭✭
If and when will SGC begin their own Registry? It's bound to happen at some point. PSA knows how powerful it is. Once they do this, this should really help SGC take off (volume and pricing).
ANy thoughts?
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I don’t really get what the point would be to compete against themselves in that way. In fact, I don’t see why they would try to increase the profile of SGC at all, or even keep it active long term.
Even the ugly stepchildren deserve to be loved.
Come on people now. Smile on your brothers.
I agree and I like SGC as much as PSA. It was a defensive move to stop Fanatics from acquiring them. Now Fanatics has to start from scratch, not be in that part of the sports card market or buy Collectors Universe. The EBay Vault deal makes buying Collectors Universe almost impossible as their revenue from EBay sales from the vault will be a huge growth driver and Fanatics wants to sell from their own platforms.
I wonder how long until PSA shuts down SGC and offers a 'discount' to get cards reslabbed into the PSA holder.
sadly I do agree
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
And will all those SGC 88's be in PSA 7 holders?
Possibility.
1) shut them down
2) Run as usual
3) Strengthen them
4) make them a separate division that grades only certain items
They are on pace to grade nearly 3 Million items this year, a record for them.
One can be Porsche, the other can be Volkswagen.
Come on people now. Smile on your brothers.
Maybe. I don't know. Maybe CGC is the SUV? Beckett the Mini Cooper.
As Porsche and VW are similarly partnered companies, so are PSA and SGC. By appearance they seem different, but the product is generally the same.
Come on people now. Smile on your brothers.
sadly I do agree
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
It's inevitable. Collector's will put on a front as if both can coexist together but the reality is that they only bought them for market share and to further eliminate any competition. Within a year or two they will come up with some press release that it is no longer cost-efficient to carry both brands and SGC will cease to exist.
Branding is everything, and I highly doubt that Collector's will want to put any effort into marketing the SGC brand when they can put those resources into PSA.
Does anyone think this will have an effect on value given to SGC slabs graded in the past? With SGC being part of that brand. For existing and new collectors the perspectives might be different too.
i can see both sides. i think some of the main guys that work at sgc used to work at psa. some of the posts here make sense, why keep sgc going? if they keep it, how much does psa benefit? it appears at least in the short-term, psa has added assets to sgc. weekly gradings are up a significant amount. maybe that's because psa bought them or they are assisting them. sgc's main gradings have been old stuff. maybe that's where psa wants them.
All speculation, but some ideas that come to mind on this:
I still wonder if the reason why there has not been a grading special in an abnormally long time for Pre-1950 items might eventually show up as having had something to do with the merge.
If SGC is going to stick around as a brand name under same ownership, then it might be possible that we see SGC items that were graded post-merge (and therefore probably a certain date more recent than the actual merge) as being eligible to add to sets in the set registry. Perhaps unweighted equal value for PSA and SGC for the same item if PSA agrees that the standards are equivalent; or, maybe they put a premium correction on a set's score if all items are PSA instead of a mix of SGC & PSA, while still allowing SGC eligibility?
Perhaps for Newbs, but all others will likely maintain the views they already have - human nature in effect
People collected SGC without the registry. Not sure those people care now. Sounds like speculation for a chance to mine for price appreciation.
I have some SGC, but most are PSA slabbed and would never start a new set just because of an SGC set registry.
merger likely occurred for SGC's vintage expertise as it seemed PSA vintage grading recently had been controversal...by purchasing SGC PSA now has access to the SGC grader talent pool...
I doubt they offer any discount. Why should they? If you want to add SGC cards to your registry set, they more than likely will force you to regrade them.
PSA has gradually gone from a customer friendly business to one that cares mostly about profits. At least that's how I see it.
The way I see it, PSA cares little about the registry. You can't even start a new player set.
I think they want to grade Pokémon and new cards, with higher grading fees and submissions coming in at a huge rate, why waste time and money on the Registry?
I would lament the loss of the registry. You can see lots of amazing sets on there. I wish more people participated.
Hard to participate when you can't start a new player.
Hard to enjoy it when they arbitrarily remove, or refuse to add cards to an existing set.
the set registry when created resulted in a huge boon to their business as this ORGANIZED collectors efforts...collectors then had motivation to grade the common card...also gave PSA a competitive advantage over the other competing companies....The registry "IDEA" seems to be the one thing that propelled the grading business to new heights by allowing collectors to receive recognition for their efforts...it was a HUGE idea...ANY NEW IDEAS folks???
Yeah. I get that but maybe they are actually updating and upgrading it like they said. I’m hopeful.
Now it is card factory verses grading factory...Yes I'm waiting to be hired
just figured out what's going to happen to sgc. i sent in my first submission since psa took over. i was very happy with my other 8 submissions with sgc. but today, things changed, it looks like psa will/has changed the grading standards for sgc. making 9's becomes 7's. making 1994's 6's. very frustrating to say the least, the pre 80's cards weren't bad. but the 90's up were laughable. i got more 6's on my 90's than i did 9's. say what? i've only graded about 10,000 cards in my life, in my opinion a 6 should have very visible issues. my 1970's do for sure. extremely ridiculous.
so in the end, everyone will start sending their cards back to psa and get crummy grades because they will be worth more as psa'6's than sgc 6's and sgc will fade off into oblivion.
That's a total bummer and I'm sorry to read this happened. I started putting an SGC order together and never got it in the mail. Now I'm wishing I didn't drop that ball.
The lack of competition isn't helping.
Here we go.
Why isn’t there any competition?
It seems to me that BGS is dormant.
SGC was #2.
There are tons of grading companies with nearly no market share. I think it's pretty easy to slap 3 or 4 letters on a 10 cent slab and call yourself a grading company.
At this point PSA probably has 90% of the market. Maybe more.
refractors from the 90's -- can't get a 9. 10. years ago, i got a bunch, i still have cards from that time frame, and i bet there is no way to get a 9 on any of them. same with 1979 and back. they have just stopped giving out 9's and 10's. i know several of the cards probably have issues i overlooked, but 6's on pack pulled 90's cards, make no sense.
highlights of the order (not many)
1994 topps gold wagner 9.5
1987 topps uk rice 9.5 pop 1, no 10's
1973 seaver opc 8
1971 clemente 6
1986 fleer magic 9
Same here with 90's refractors. I've been submitting 90's & early 2000's refractors for years and I got mostly 9's with a few surprise 10's. Now, 9's are the exception as I get mostly 7's & 8's and I haven't had a 10 in my last 2 submissions.
I'm starting to think you are right on this after my most recent SGC sub.
Seems to me, that idea's time has come and gone. When a company becomes (too?) successful, they allocate their resources on what's most profitable.
In the case of grading vs registry, why spend time on the registry if you just want to grade cards and collect fees?
I'd like to be hopeful too, but I'm not holding my breath. The "old" PSA is gone, it's under new ownership.
The Registry is being rebuilt, from what’s been said by PSA management. I’m paraphrasing, of course, but the basic gist is the current software system was ahead of its time at the start of the Registry but at this point in time, now it’s like the equivalent of trying to update the original iPhone out of a box to the current iPhone software, with none of the numerous upgrade steps in between. The current registry still crashes often, it’s too hard to update properly, it’s become tougher and slower to navigate over time and it seems like it can’t handle the number of images OR visitors. Analagous to a stadium in its last year before replacement, I don’t think PSA is putting any further significant investment or effort into the current venue but just the necessary maintenance to keep it up and running. And again, this has been stated publicly by the company in some of their press releases and interviews.
To be completely clear, this next bit is just speculation and opinion on my part, reading the tea leaves and such. So with respect to the SGC deal, I still think it was mainly completed to keep SGC out of the hands of the Fanatics Group; they’re moving hard on the industry by acquiring the card companies and the group has a penchant for trying for monopolistic control. See their Topps acquisition deal, their repeated attempts at cutting the legs off the Panini group and their FANATICS FEST that is basically designed to be direct competition with National (see autograph lineup) to be held at the Jacob Javits Center in New York City this August. Given the splash they’re trying to make and the way they enter markets, I would not be surprised to see them launch some type of grading service of their own by the time of or at this event. Again, just speculation on my part.
With respect to the purpose of the acquisition, I also think SGC will be improved to be more PSA like from a business perspective. A cleanup of the population report, a Registry, and other symbiotic improvements. In theory, you could potentially submit to both brands through either company and have walk up service in NJ, Florida and CA. And, obviously, you now have the two most established and respected brands under one holding company and the synergies created will make grading more consistent across the brands, increase profitability and with the establishment of a proper SGC registry will probably serve to increase the long term popularity of SGC.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Oh the powers of perception!> @1951WheatiesPremium said:
Nice perceptive thought process !!!
All very interesting, Wheaties.
I wouldn't be surprised to still see Fanatics make a play on a grading company. Even with PSA and SGC merging it wouldn't take long for Fanatics to buy one, put tons of cash into it and make it the premier grader in the business. PSA has to be quaking in their boots about that. I'd love to hear their conversations about how they're allocating resources to make themselves more efficient, more desirable while staying profitable enough to resist Fanatics in the future.
That must create a ton of sleepless nights.
I'll tell them what they shouldn't do though. They shouldn't recreate their entire grading standards in the name of AI just to have something else to advertise/market about. Nothing will make collectors run to Fanatics more than if they feel like they're being screwed over in the name of technology.
The next few years will be interesting for sure...
I’m not sure I agree with the bolded sentiment; CSG has recently entered the marketplace with exactly that - tons of money behind them - and as yet doesn’t seem to be developing the anticipated following. They grading cards and generating profit but the hobby’s elite cards are not popping up in their holders.
Every company can put a cheap card in plastic for 10-15 per, if not cheaper. I still think it will be tough to get the flow of the ‘mucho expensive to grade a single card’ market that SGC or PSA has at the present.
I can’t see someone with a high end card gambling on a CSG or Fanatics holder holding up at auction the way a more prestigious holder would - as a buyer or seller.
And if Fantatics starts going from printing the card initially to slabbing the card with nothing in between, I’d never trust that process, anyway. While I do agree that Beckett could be a good potential purchase as a brand name, there’s a lot of baggage that comes with it and it’s brand value has decreased in recent years. Unfortunately, it’s probably as much a resurrection as an acquisition at this point.
This is based on feedback and information from others; I have never subbed to Beckett.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I wouldn't trust Fanatics going straight from printing to slabbing either, but there are also plenty of gray areas with existing graders that everyone sort of overlooks. It would take a bit of time for them to grow their reputation, but if they got their slabs on several high-end cards then they could build a solid rep.
PSA is obviously doing all they can to cement their place, but that could all go in a flash. They're already alienating a ton of folks with these new grading changes. They're ripe for another company to pillage.
I appreciate your perspective, in this matter and others.
You’re a good poster
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Exactly the same situation for me!
I just wanted cards graded on their own merits according the firms published guidelines. Instead those like you and me are subject to a message akin to my sig.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
1989 Score Aikman perfectly centered, corners sharp, no edge issue. I really thought at a minimum that this was a 9.5 and I got an 8.5. Same thing on the bARRY s. 8.5. I thought the barry would get a 9. 1987 donruss the rookies, bo and mark, got a 4 and a 5. LIKE WHAT? Both perfectly centered, no corner or edge issues, looked right out of the box. i thought I had 9's on both, or better.
my 1961 post mantle that i bought for $10 got a 4. The bo looked much better.
I've also been seeing a lot coming through auctions recently graded (starting with 8s & 9s) that are very sharp (trimmed?) and centered that are 5-8. Makes you wonder if there's a lot of disappointed folks dumping cards they feel are undergraded and hoping someone over pays for what looks like harsh grading.
I bought the card off of COMC from a dude named undergraded, so there you go.
I betcha some of the lowered grades vs. expectations have been happening because of surface issues which used to be overlooked, such as tiny wrinkles and divots. Or fuzzy corners which can only be viewed at 100X through a telescope. I just betcha.
Come on people now. Smile on your brothers.
Aren't there SOME surface things that are natural in the manufacturing process of the card?
Grading should never account for manufacturing flaws. The inherent problem, IF my suspicions are correct, is that there are cards already graded and holdered which now don't fit the qualifications so many have identified as being stricter than before.
Come on people now. Smile on your brothers.
100% correct.
There is a 1975 nolan ryan psa 8.5 in auction right now. The card looks more like an 8 to me, but it's nice. If graded now it would be a 6. bottom left corner isn't 100% sharp, small print issues up and down the left side of the card.
I went back and 12% of my cards were graded at 4 or below or not graded at all. 15 x 15 = $225 completely gone. I would have been better off wiping my a-- with them. and the ones not graded or that 4's in the 70's all big names cards, brett rookie, multiple nolan ryan's. multiple pete rose's. Complete hog wash.
Topps paid about .000001 cent per cardboard on each card, and PSA thinks the cardboard should be perfect. Wow. The magnifying angle above, I believe is the answer. When used on today's cards not big deal, but on 50 year old cards, deafening.