Is this a coin that turned on the holder?

sellitstore

or will PCGS straight grade a coin with this kind of toning? How old is the holder?
https://invaluable.com/auction-lot/1881-s-morgan-silver-dollar-pcgs-ms65-toned-789-c-30f4fecbb1?objectID=188598108&algIndex=upcoming_lots_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=2704de76c0854fd240de1889b0005dc1

MFeld

I don’t think it’s possible to tell from the photo whether the coin turned in the holder. But if it did, it’s not readily apparent to me.

sellitstore

Thanks, Mark.

What are the signs that you would look for with the coin in hand that would differentiate it from just ugly toning? Signs of dipping, like impaired luster?

Walkerfan

@sellitstore said:
Thanks, Mark.

What are the signs that you would look for with the coin in hand that would differentiate it from just ugly toning? Signs of dipping, like impaired luster?

If the toning is darker and ugly and progresses rapidly, especially near the rims, then it has likely turned in the holder.

coinbuf

@sellitstore said:
or will PCGS straight grade a coin with this kind of toning? How old is the holder?

While I do not know if the coin turned in the holder, this appears to be a gen 6 holder used from 2015 to 2020, and being non gold shield there is no TV to be able to review and see what it looked like when the graders saw it. Not a coin I would want to own as I perceive that look to be quite ugly.

MFeld

@sellitstore said:
Thanks, Mark.

What are the signs that you would look for with the coin in hand that would differentiate it from just ugly toning? Signs of dipping, like impaired luster?

You’re most welcome.
It would be far easier to show face-to-face than to explain but…signs would be (atypical) conspicuous and unsightly splotches or areas and/or colors that don’t look normal/natural. Shades of brown are colors that are often seen on such coins.Keep in mind that a dipped coin which has turned can range anywhere from dull to brilliant.
Reading the above, my answer doesn’t sound particularly helpful and if it isn’t, I apologize for that. Hopefully, someone else can do better.

JBK

In case anyone was wondering....

MFeld

@JBK said:
In case anyone has wondering....

Thank you for the blown-up picture. Based on it, the coin looks as if it very well might have turned in the holder. That said, I’d still want to see it in hand before declaring that to have been the case.

Morgan13

I don't think it turned. I see coins with fingerprints that straight grade all the time. The coin probably has minimal contact marks and the graders probably considered the "tarnish" to be original.
Just my opinion.
Take it with a grain of salt.

Walkerfan

@JBK Although I can't be 100% sure, it certainly looks like it turned, in the holder, to me.

I base this opinion upon known examples that I've seen in the past.

Regardless, it is one fugly coin.

JBK

In this case, MS stands for "much sludge".

crazyhounddog

It’s impossible to tell if it turned in the holder but at any rate if it did, it turned kinda ugly.
Just my opinion.

MFeld

@crazyhounddog said:
It’s impossible to tell if it turned in the holder but at any rate if it did, it turned kinda ugly.
Just my opinion.

And even if it didn’t, it’s also kinda ugly.😉

krueger

The morgan in the holder shown looks like it was dipped at one time and not properly rinsed . The dip remaining on the coin turns the silver black spotchy. I have seen this many time and on coins I have dipped. It will have to be redipped and a good rinse. Each dip dulls the surfaces.
I have also seen Registry coins labeled "RED" and they are now brown in the holders. They were either not nuetralize
Or were in a stored environment where they were exposed to air /out gasses that turned them brown in the holder.
TPG Slabs are not hermetically sealed. Red coppers are hard to keep that way even in those boxes lined with black
Carbon paper (?) To react with the gasses to protect the coins. I've not had super results with These boxes.
The card board outer box still has sulfur in it. I don't like paying a premium for Red coppers as the surface s are more volatile and less stable then a RB or BN one.

sellitstore

Thanks to all for their input.

Yes, we all agree that this is one ugly coin but the MS65 holder will certainly help sell it to someone. Not me or anyone here.

The time period in the holder is certainly long enough for a coin to turn but I still wonder if PCGS would currently holder this coin looking like this or if it has changed since certification. It Looks like it could be ugly natural toning but my instincts say bad rinse. Yes, it would better to see the coin in person, as always.

No doubt red copper can change, perhaps more than any other metal, after certification. Lots of RB-looking copper in RD holders out there.

oih82w8

Slade01

Never heard of Invaluable.com, is that where coins like this go to hide?

edit: I must say that I have never seen anything close to this on Heritage, GC, or Stacks. edited further for clarity with .com

johnny9434

To fugly for me

sellitstore

@Slade01 said:
Never heard of Invaluable, is that where coins like this go to hide?

edit: I must say that I have never seen anything close to this on Heritage, GC, or Stacks.

Yeah, but I've never seen Heritage, GC, or Stack's refuse to sell a PCGS MS65 certified Morgan due to it being ugly for the grade. We all agree. It's ugly. And that was the point of the post but some still haven't picked up on that.

Yeah, don't bother with Invaluable. It's all junk.

JimTyler

Wouldn’t be the first ugly coin graded

BillJones

@krueger said:
The morgan in the holder shown looks like it was dipped at one time and not properly rinsed . The dip remaining on the coin turns the silver black spotchy. I have seen this many time and on coins I have dipped. It will have to be redipped and a good rinse. Each dip dulls the surfaces.
I have also seen Registry coins labeled "RED" and they are now brown in the holders. They were either not nuetralize
Or were in a stored environment where they were exposed to air /out gasses that turned them brown in the holder.
TPG Slabs are not hermetically sealed. Red coppers are hard to keep that way even in those boxes lined with black
Carbon paper (?) To react with the gasses to protect the coins. I've not had super results with These boxes.
The card board outer box still has sulfur in it. I don't like paying a premium for Red coppers as the surface s are more volatile and less stable then a RB or BN one.

When I was dealer, I bought a couple of large cents from the 1850s that were called “Red” which changed in a few months. I took my hits, and learned my lesson. I won’t buy old red copper. Brown looks great to me.

MFeld

@Slade01 said:
Never heard of Invaluable, is that where coins like this go to hide?

edit: I must say that I have never seen anything close to this on Heritage, GC, or Stacks.

Not at all - “invaluable” would apply to coins that are essentially the opposite looking of the one posted.

Slade01

@MFeld said:

@Slade01 said:
Never heard of Invaluable, is that where coins like this go to hide?

edit: I must say that I have never seen anything close to this on Heritage, GC, or Stacks.

Not at all - “invaluable” would apply to coins that are essentially the opposite looking of the one posted.

No, sorry, should have capitalized Invaluable it is a web auction site that just seems a bit sketchy to me.

MFeld

@Slade01 said:

@MFeld said:

@Slade01 said:
Never heard of Invaluable, is that where coins like this go to hide?

edit: I must say that I have never seen anything close to this on Heritage, GC, or Stacks.

Not at all - “invaluable” would apply to coins that are essentially the opposite looking of the one posted.

No, sorry, should have capitalized Invaluable it is a web auction site that just seems a bit sketchy to me.

Thanks for the clarification.

Slade01

I don't think that any real auction houses need worry, despite their claim to be the world's premiere auction house -- they make most EBay auctions look reputable.

anablep

That coin looks like it has something communicable

On a more serious note, luckily, this date comes readily available in higher grades with better color, luster, and eye appeal…

sellitstore

Reminds me of Dr Nick from The Simpsons.

Maybe "Invaluable" really means "Valuable"