Grading PL and DMPL's answered

Morgan13

I am getting ready to do a 20 coin submission. I'm looking over all the coins going in and I really want to get this right.
I know it's 2-4 inches for PL and I'm not sure if DMPL is 4 or better. I thought it was 6 inches but am thinking what happens when it's 5 inches.
The main reason for this post is what size font and most importantly how do they hold the coin to pick up the letters.
Do they lay the coin flat and move an instrument over it?
Or do they lay an instrument flat and hold the coin at an angle?
Is it black letters?
Like I said I believe I know the answers but a refresher just before submitting would be reassuring.
Maybe even someone showing an example of how they do it.
It would be great if a current of former grader could chime in.
This lesson would be helpful to many of us no doubt.
Thanks in advance.

MFeld

“Do they lay the coin flat and move an instrument over it?
Or do they lay an instrument flat and hold the coin at an angle?”

My guess is that in most cases, they do neither and instead, eyeball it.

Morgan13

@MFeld
You would know Mark.
Could you elaborate more on the subject for someone who hasn't graded 1000 PL or DMPL's.
Just some tips for a novice.

MFeld

@Morgan13 said:
@MFeld
You would know Mark.
Could you elaborate more on the subject for someone who hasn't graded 1000 PL or DMPL's.
Just some tips for a novice.

Way back in the Middle Ages when I was a grader (1991-1998), we didn’t typically use instruments to determine PL and DPL/DMPL designations. Sometimes, however, I’d hold a pencil or finger at different heights above the coin to check the reflectivity. Please note that when I used a finger it was always attached/never detached.😉

Morgan13

LOL
Thanks Mark.
That's a good idea I'll try it.

david3142

The grading guidelines on the PCGS site don’t make sense. PL is 2-4” and DMPL is 6+ so you are correct to be confused about 4-5. In my experience those coins are going to be graded inconsistently. I sometimes use text to determine mirrors but mostly I go with my general feel or hold a finger above the coin as Mark suggested.

blu62vette

I dont think I have ever measured a mirror. I do laugh when people do it to slabbed coins as they are using the plastic reflection to say their coin has 14" mirrors or some nonsense.

Here is one loose guideline I use. PL is not hard, does it have good mirrors ok, then it is PL. If you have to decide if PLmor not PL, it is probably not strong enough. Once you know it is PL for me I want to see the mirrors turn to a water like form when I rotate it around. Got water, shot at DMPL. Some water areas and some sandy beach? Probably PL.

GoldFinger1969

Just curious....was there PL and DMPL designations BEFORE the TPGs came into being in the late-1980's ?

lilolme

@GoldFinger1969 said:
Just curious....was there PL and DMPL designations BEFORE the TPGs came into being in the late-1980's ?

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Below is a few paragraphs from a multi-part article by Randy Campbell (dated Feb 2000). It indicates when he states he started the distinction between proof like mirror depth. (I seem to recall posting this before but couldn't find it)

Below that is where the Greysheet changed their proof like title to DMPL in Nov 1989. However, the prices did not change (except for those with a +/-). So it appears to be a name change only and referring to the same type of proof like coin for pricing. But an indication of adoption of the different terms perhaps.
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ProofCollection

From "Coin Chemistry" By Weimar W. White, he says:

According to ANACS standards, a PL coin must reflect 2 inches of clear newspaper print on both the obv and rev. Typically, the coin is held at a 90-degree angle to the printed image. A DMPL coin reflects 4 inches of type, while 12 inches of clear reflectivity indicates a UDMPL.

NGC maintains that a PL dollar must clearly reflect 2 to 5 inches of object; a DMPL must show more than 5 inches. The degree of reflectivity is measured by holding an object above the coin (a finger for example) at the appropriate distance and observing the reflection.

According to PCGS, a PL dollar must clearly reflect 2 to 4 inches in the fields. If striations disrupt the clarity of the reflection, then the coin should not be considered PL. For a DMPL coin, the depth of clear reflection should be at least 6 inches and perfectly mirrorlike (not fogged) without rotating the coin. Striations that impeded the cartwheel's reflectivity should reduce the coin to PL at best.

But how PCGS does it, that wasn't stated. You might also look at the PCGS video which says about the same thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpEI3TMGzhg&t=39s

Married2Coins

In a grading seminar several years ago the instructor said most graders (working in a dark room) see how sharp their fingernail is in the mirror. I shall not give his name in case I an not quoting him exactly. He said all the different #'s amount to a "do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" thing. That PL and DMPL reflectivity on slabbed coins is inconsistent and has changed over the years. Basically, when you have enough experience you will know it when you see it. Most of all, it all depends on how rare the coin is in PL and DMPL. Coins of different dates and mints with exactly the same depth of mirror are not graded the same because of that factor. Grading is very subjective.

DelawareDoons

The finger is the go to amongst most graders. Start an inch or so away and pull back and see how long it stays clearly visible for.

Connecticoin

Wow those 1989 prices are still eye-popping!

Baylor8670

@Married2Coins said:
In a grading seminar several years ago the instructor said most graders (working in a dark room) see how sharp their fingernail is in the mirror. I shall not give his name in case I an not quoting him exactly. He said all the different #'s amount to a "do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" thing. That PL and DMPL reflectivity on slabbed coins is inconsistent and has changed over the years. Basically, when you have enough experience you will know it when you see it. Most of all, it all depends on how rare the coin is in PL and DMPL. Coins of different dates and mints with exactly the same depth of mirror are not graded the same because of that factor. Grading is very subjective.

So, if you submit a reflective coin that has never had any designated as PL, the TPG will grade it on a curve?