This Morgan dollar Has Me Intrigued. (I am not sure what to make of it.)

braddick

Your thoughts?
NGC called in "Atrifical Toning" on the insert.
Instinctively, I want to call it PMD.

Edited to include:
Not my coin.

oih82w8

Whizzed?

IkesT

Planchet striations.

MarkKelley

Looks like she's been scooted across some 100-grit sandpaper.

braddick

@oih82w8 said:
Whizzed?

I don't believe so.

@IkesT said:
Planchet striations.

I thought that was a possibility, especially as there are no lines running through the LIBERTY on the headband...

IkesT

@braddick said:

@oih82w8 said:
Whizzed?

I don't believe so.

@IkesT said:
Planchet striations.

I thought that was a possibility, especially as there are no lines running through the LIBERTY on the headband...

Because the tendency is for planchet striations to get flattened out during striking of the coin, they tend to be better preserved on the higher relief parts of the coin (which correspond to the more concave areas of the die). If you look carefully, you can still see remnants of them in lower relief areas, but they are more subtle.

Below are a few areas where you can see examples of weaker striations in lower relief areas adjacent to the stronger striations in higher relief areas:

CaptHenway

Do a search for “drawing bench” to save me having type out the explanation again.

braddick

https://coinweek.com/how-coins-were-made-1869-edition/

bennybravo

Looks like a leave that thing alone, and let the next fella try to figure it out Pat.

CaptHenway

Short version. If you punch a planchet of precise diameter out of a planchet strip of precise thickness you can produce planchets of precise weight. In an attempt to make planchet strip thickness precise, the Mint would roll down planchet strip to just slightly more than what was needed and then put it on a drawing bench, which held the strip flat. The leading edge of the strip was mechanically tapered (hammered?) and fed through a rectangular "gate" in a block of steel firmly attached to one end of the bench, A clamp attached to a powered chain was attached to the tapered end and as the chain retracted the entire strip was pulled through the gate. THis gave the strip the precise thickness of the gate.

HOWEVER, if metal fragments attached themselves to the gate they could leave long, parallel scratches in the planchet strip as it went through. (These used to be called "roller marks," but rollers do not develop long and parallel RAISED lines on them which could leave such marks.) Depending on where the long parallel scratches fell under the relief on the dies, they would be more or less flattened out. The higher the relief, the less pressure on the surface of the coin.

davewesen

those lines look pre-strike to me

are you sure the coin is not ALSO artificially toned?

if it is not really expensive, might be cool to examine in hand ($50 yes ... $550 no)

Namvet69

So the striation lines were on the planchet before the strike which means there was debris on the draw bench gate. Ipso facto, defective planchet? Was a draw bench still in use in SF in 1902?

CaptHenway

@Namvet69 said:
So the striation lines were on the planchet before the strike which means there was debris on the draw bench gate. Ipso facto, defective planchet? Was a draw bench still in use in SF in 1902?

I would say that this coin proves that it was.

messydesk

Wow, those are severe. Pity it's on a better date and not something common, because there'd probably be a coolness premium on a common date. NGC's AT designation is independent of the striations.

DennisH

@IkesT said:
Planchet striations.

Severe. Perhaps the most severe I have even seen.

TomB

Looks like roller marks from the minting process. These are sometimes seen on Reeded Edge half dollars, as well, with some die marriages having them more than others. Here is one of mine. It's a PCGS AU55 in an OGH with a gold CAC sticker-

CaptHenway

As I said these used to be called "roller marks," but the roller would have to have multiple RAISED lines completely around the entire circumference of the roller to leave continuous parallel depressed lines across one side of the planchet, and what could cause lines to raise up on a hardened steel roller? And sometimes both sides?

Rexford

Roller marks, and it did not get called AT for that.

WinLoseWin

The 1902-S is one of the dates known for sometimes having those. That one seems more extensive than most. Not sure why some years were more likely than other years.

Here is what is quoted on PCGS CoinFacts from Q. David Bowers in the "Silver Dollars & Trade Dollars of the United States: A Complete Encyclopedia"

"Some pieces show parallel striae on the planchet, a vestige of the drawing bench operation prior to coinage."

https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1902-s-1/7282

CaptHenway

Roger B. offers these quotes from one of his books:

Following the finishing rolls, the thin strips were cut in half lengthwise to make them easier to handle and reduce bending. A one and a half inch “pointing roll” was used to thin one end of each strip so that it would easily fit through the fixed dies of the draw bench. The strip was also coated with tallow to lubricate passage between the dies.

A drawbench had two flat, polished steel dies whose spacing was controlled by set screws. [Polished cylindrical dies were also used.] The thin end of a strip was fed through the dies and attached to the gripping jaws of the draw bench carriage. As the carriage was pulled along the bench, it pulled the strip through the fixed dies and the metal was pressed to the correct final thickness for cutting coin blanks. Sample blanks were cut from each end of the strip to make sure the thickness was correct. The ends of each strip were cut off to prevent accidental production of thin blanks from the tapered ends. The sides were also trimmed to remove areas of irregular thickness. (By the early 1920s, it had been found that if up to twenty-four passes through the breakdown rollers and ten through the finishing rollers were made, the strips were of better quality. Cracks and ripples were minimized and the draw bench often had little effect on the strips. This took more time in the rolling mill but resulted in less waste and an overall improvement in efficiency.)
[Source: From Mine to Mint, p50.]

A last problem was the introduction of very fine scratches in the strip surface, during either final rolling or use of the drawbench, [depending on severity]. Drawbench marks could result from one of the rotating polished dies becoming stuck, or contamination of the strip lubricants. Any marks produced by debris on the rolls or drawbench dies, would have been too small to affect the weight of blanks. Certain high-point lines on Morgan silver dollars can be attributed to this cause when a combination of design relief and striking pressure did not obliterate all of the fine scratches.
[Source: From Mine to Mint, p275.]

mbogoman

Wow. What an educational thread! Even an old fart like me can learn something new on any given day!!

PapiNE

Yep. Great info. I've seen this on a few of my Morgans and always wondered. Apparently the planchets didn't get inspected or a few snuck through. I would think the striations would stand out.

CaptHenway

@PapiNE said:
Yep. Great info. I've seen this on a few of my Morgans and always wondered. Apparently the planchets didn't get inspected or a few snuck through. I would think the striations would stand out.

As long as the planchets were within the tolerance ranges for weight and fineness, the striations did not matter.

alefzero

Planchet striations inherited from the strip after the draw bench. As minted.

braddick

Here is an interesting Large Cent.
(Obviously altered.)

WinLoseWin

That 1853 sure has been through the mill. Just not at the mint.

Morgan13

That's the kind of isoteric stuff I like. Pretty cool.

thebeav

Kind of reminds me of 'correction' marks as so often seen on bust dollars.