The Cope Collection

MrEureka

Super cool collection sold today. Brought very, very solid money, of course. I got shut out on most of it, but did manage to buy all of the Latin American. The pics don't do the coins justice.

Ancients:

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4515

British:

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4516

Latin American:

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4516&l=5379101

pruebas

I was after 3 lots. After being completely and totally blown out of the water on the first two, I stepped up my game and will now be buried with this one. A rare (Taylor restrike) silver farthing.

JohnnyCache

@MrEureka said:
Super cool collection sold today. Brought very, very solid money, of course. I got shut out on most of it, but did manage to buy all of the Latin American. The pics don't do the coins justice.
Latin American:

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4516&l=5379101

 
It looks like that was the only Spanish Colonial coin.

I find it interesting that the Chilean 8R was minted in 1793 and, by virtue of having no obvious wear, was apparently spared from any significant circulation only to years later be counter struck in 1799, then rather strangely it was once again put away and preserved. Is that unusual for these counterstamped examples?

There were a couple of counterstamped Spanish 4 Reales (Mainland Spain) but your purchase was the cherry. Congratulations.

robp2

Remarkable results for today's sales. Approx. CHF 6.5m hammer for the Roman plus the British. The good news is that there will be a 5 or 6 month recovery period for the bank account before the next instalment and there's only 550-600 pieces to come. I've got my list ready.

As for today, I won 1 of 3 I had specially earmarked, underbidder on 3, blown out of the water on about 20 and a handful started above my max.

MrEureka

@JohnnyCache said:

I find it interesting that the Chilean 8R was minted in 1793 and, by virtue of having no obvious wear, was apparently spared from any significant circulation only to years later be counter struck in 1799, then rather strangely it was once again put away and preserved. Is that unusual for these counterstamped examples?

Low grade pieces on more common hosts are common, but high grade pieces are not especially rare. I think it's safe to say that it's pure coincidence that this rarity happened to be one of the ones set aside. Although it's certainly possible that some more sophisticated collectors were setting aside "one of each" back in the early 19th century, so maybe the rarities are slightly more likely to have survived in high grade.

Boosibri

@JohnnyCache said:

@MrEureka said:
Super cool collection sold today. Brought very, very solid money, of course. I got shut out on most of it, but did manage to buy all of the Latin American. The pics don't do the coins justice.
Latin American:

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4516&l=5379101

 
It looks like that was the only Spanish Colonial coin.

I find it interesting that the Chilean 8R was minted in 1793 and, by virtue of having no obvious wear, was apparently spared from any significant circulation only to years later be counter struck in 1799, then rather strangely it was once again put away and preserved. Is that unusual for these counterstamped examples?

There were a couple of counterstamped Spanish 4 Reales (Mainland Spain) but your purchase was the cherry. Congratulations.

Good observation.

The majority of Chilean host coins that exist are not heavily circulated

MrEureka

@Boosibri said:

Good observation.

The majority of Chilean host coins that exist are not heavily circulated

Keep in mind that there weren't a whole lot of heavily circulated Chilean 8 Reales in circulation back in 1799.

coinkat

I sat this one out- some impressive English rarities. Not surprised by the results as a whole- some exceeded expectations and there were others that hammered at a reasonable amount. The countermarked Bust $ brought $85K- that coin looks to be the one in the 2022 Spink Catalog

The Chilean 8 R is tough- congrats.

the 1705 Crown brought $46K.

The take away is typical- coins that rarely come to the market usually exceed expectations and yesterday was no different.

robp2

@coinkat said:
I sat this one out- some impressive English rarities. Not surprised by the results as a whole- some exceeded expectations and there were others that hammered at a reasonable amount. The countermarked Bust $ brought $85K- that coin looks to be the one in the 2022 Spink Catalog

The Chilean 8 R is tough- congrats.

the 1705 Crown brought $46K.

The take away is typical- coins that rarely come to the market usually exceed expectations and yesterday was no different.

All the coins in Spink with that sort of print tone are his. Same applies to the coppers.

The 1705 crown and some of the others were rather harshly graded. I was hoping it would put off some of the number chasers - fat chance. I had hoped the 63 graded Charles II sixpence would not be bid up too far because of the 64 following, because the 63 was the nicer of the two with less wear. The 64 sailed away despite being a lesser coin IMO.

The sale also did well because it was over 50 years of dedicated concentration on quality. It's no coincidence that his ebay handle was 'fdcoinonly'

7Jaguars

Are these dealers primarily buying at these levels? I followed the Heritage sale and have a decent collection of Vicky half sovs. As I watched the prices went higher and higher and only bid on one lot (which I lost). I get so tempted to sell into the teeth of this market.....

robp2

@7Jaguars said:
Are these dealers primarily buying at these levels? I followed the Heritage sale and have a decent collection of Vicky half sovs. As I watched the prices went higher and higher and only bid on one lot (which I lost). I get so tempted to sell into the teeth of this market.....

If you are talking about reselling, it might be for the US market, but not the UK. Most people I spoke to were of the opinion that the prices would be too high to make money on and that bidding was likely to be commission only. There will be a few dealers with deep pockets, but they will likely have been very selective buying for stock given the sums tied up. I can't see many buying say the Fine Work shillings at 20, 30, 40K in the expectation that they can make 10K or more profit. Under normal circumstances these would be 10-15K max, and usually less.

I bought just the Chester declaration halfcrown and that will be a bit over (a not unreasonable in the current market) 7K all in, but that was for me. However, I wouldn't expect to make any more than 1K with a tailwind if it was for selling. I suspect there was a lot of interest from Japan yesterday.

Boosibri

@robp2 said:

@7Jaguars said:
Are these dealers primarily buying at these levels? I followed the Heritage sale and have a decent collection of Vicky half sovs. As I watched the prices went higher and higher and only bid on one lot (which I lost). I get so tempted to sell into the teeth of this market.....

If you are talking about reselling, it might be for the US market, but not the UK. Most people I spoke to were of the opinion that the prices would be too high to make money on and that bidding was likely to be commission only. There will be a few dealers with deep pockets, but they will likely have been very selective buying for stock given the sums tied up. I can't see many buying say the Fine Work shillings at 20, 30, 40K in the expectation that they can make 10K or more profit. Under normal circumstances these would be 10-15K max, and usually less.

I bought just the Chester declaration halfcrown and that will be a bit over (a not unreasonable in the current market) 7K all in, but that was for me. However, I wouldn't expect to make any more than 1K with a tailwind if it was for selling. I suspect there was a lot of interest from Japan yesterday.

You are probably right, and yet it cost a Japanese buyer 15% more in yen terms to buy these coins vs a year ago. Tough currency, the Yen.

pruebas

@robp2 said:

@7Jaguars said:
Are these dealers primarily buying at these levels? I followed the Heritage sale and have a decent collection of Vicky half sovs. As I watched the prices went higher and higher and only bid on one lot (which I lost). I get so tempted to sell into the teeth of this market.....

I suspect there was a lot of interest from Japan yesterday.

Given the low JPY, that would make these very expensive indeed in Yen terms.

wybrit

I watched as well. Coins in my area of interest went for about the same money as they've been going elsewhere. Valuations have exploded. The only caveat is that when you or I sell, valuations shrink (another form of Murphy's Law).

coinkat

I did not realize there was an upcoming second offering in 5-6 months... the plot thickens.

robp2

@coinkat said:
I did not realize there was an upcoming second offering in 5-6 months... the plot thickens.

No plot. The whole collection is being sold.

I catalogued it for him in 2013 when there was approx. 850 British plus the Roman. More have been added since, so enough for at least 1 more sale and possibly a second depending on how many they want to put out at a time.

As for the currency considerations, at the prices obtained yesterday it would appear the world is awash with surplus capital with money no object wherever the buyer was from. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but overpaying for things will even out in the end if you don't have a short term investment mentality. Most collectors have a reasonable amount of surplus capital. They have to, to play.

What won't change is the fact that this was a sale where you had the opportunity to acquire top grade pieces, many of which had been off the market for a generation at least and many were likely to spend another generation squirreled away in someone else's collection. How many of us have coins that have been off the market for just as long? Quite a lot, I suspect. I know I do. Got to make hay when the sun shines.

What goes around comes around, but we're only on this planet for three score years and ten. A ten year wait for something to reappear is quite common. In the Motcomb sale at the end of April there was a magnificent Truro crown which was on my list of things to go for should it reappear. The last record of it going through a saleroom was Wakley in 1909, after which, it disappeared into 3 well heeled long term collections with no public sales. That in part was why it sold for £57K when you can pick up a decent example for less than 5K. (I wasn't the buyer)

MrEureka

@pruebas said:

@robp2 said:

@7Jaguars said:
Are these dealers primarily buying at these levels? I followed the Heritage sale and have a decent collection of Vicky half sovs. As I watched the prices went higher and higher and only bid on one lot (which I lost). I get so tempted to sell into the teeth of this market.....

I suspect there was a lot of interest from Japan yesterday.

Given the low JPY, that would make these very expensive indeed in Yen terms.

I'm not directly in touch with the Japanese market, so I can't say I actually know anything. That said, I'll tell you that when I buy Swedish or Swiss or Canadian coins, etc, I don't think in U.S. dollars. I think in the local currencies, and I pretty much ignore the cost (or value) in dollars. That's because the market for those coins is primarily in the home countries, and the coins are worth what they're worth. I think about Latin American coins in U.S. dollars, because so much of the demand for high end coins is here in the USA. As for British, I think about hammered silver and gold in British pounds because the market is largely in the UK. And for things like proof gold and Gothic Crowns, where so many of the coins go to Japan and China, I still think in pounds, because I think the buyers in Japan and China think like that, and that they consider collecting world coins sort of like a form of currency diversification. Again, I don't really know, but it seems logical and kind of obvious to me.

pruebas

@MrEureka said:

@pruebas said:

@robp2 said:

@7Jaguars said:
Are these dealers primarily buying at these levels? I followed the Heritage sale and have a decent collection of Vicky half sovs. As I watched the prices went higher and higher and only bid on one lot (which I lost). I get so tempted to sell into the teeth of this market.....

I suspect there was a lot of interest from Japan yesterday.

Given the low JPY, that would make these very expensive indeed in Yen terms.

I'm not directly in touch with the Japanese market, so I can't say I actually know anything. That said, I'll tell you that when I buy Swedish or Swiss or Canadian coins, etc, I don't think in U.S. dollars. I think in the local currencies, and I pretty much ignore the cost (or value) in dollars. That's because the market for those coins is primarily in the home countries, and the coins are worth what they're worth. I think about Latin American coins in U.S. dollars, because so much of the demand for high end coins is here in the USA. As for British, I think about hammered silver and gold in British pounds because the market is largely in the UK. And for things like proof gold and Gothic Crowns, where so many of the coins go to Japan and China, I still think in pounds, because I think the buyers in Japan and China think like that, and that they consider collecting world coins sort of like a form of currency diversification. Again, I don't really know, but it seems logical and kind of obvious to me.

Good point. But the sale was in Swiss Francs.

And the Japanese economy has had basically zero inflation for the past 30 years. So coin price inflation to a Japanese must seem strange since nothing else in their world is inflating. At least that's how I think about it as a non-Japanese.

Bob13

Out of my primary focus and too rich for my blood - but what beautiful coins! An amazing collection.

MrEureka

@pruebas said:

@MrEureka said:

@pruebas said:

@robp2 said:

@7Jaguars said:
Are these dealers primarily buying at these levels? I followed the Heritage sale and have a decent collection of Vicky half sovs. As I watched the prices went higher and higher and only bid on one lot (which I lost). I get so tempted to sell into the teeth of this market.....

I suspect there was a lot of interest from Japan yesterday.

Given the low JPY, that would make these very expensive indeed in Yen terms.

I'm not directly in touch with the Japanese market, so I can't say I actually know anything. That said, I'll tell you that when I buy Swedish or Swiss or Canadian coins, etc, I don't think in U.S. dollars. I think in the local currencies, and I pretty much ignore the cost (or value) in dollars. That's because the market for those coins is primarily in the home countries, and the coins are worth what they're worth. I think about Latin American coins in U.S. dollars, because so much of the demand for high end coins is here in the USA. As for British, I think about hammered silver and gold in British pounds because the market is largely in the UK. And for things like proof gold and Gothic Crowns, where so many of the coins go to Japan and China, I still think in pounds, because I think the buyers in Japan and China think like that, and that they consider collecting world coins sort of like a form of currency diversification. Again, I don't really know, but it seems logical and kind of obvious to me.

Good point. But the sale was in Swiss Francs.

And the Japanese economy has had basically zero inflation for the past 30 years. So coin price inflation to a Japanese must seem strange since nothing else in their world is inflating. At least that's how I think about it as a non-Japanese.

It doesn't matter what currency the sale is held in. The buyer is going to pay his bank or forex broker in his own currency, and the bank or forex broker will handle the rest.

As for Japanese buyers, some may indeed find it distressing that the British coins they collect have been outpacing inflation. But others may be encouraged, thinking they've been doing something right all of these years, so why should they stop now?

wybrit

I just TTT'd the Cope thread - the time he paid this forum a visit (aka SwK). Classy person. RIP

Clio

I bid all the funds I could muster on just one coin in this sale and lost out. I was the underbidder but I suspect my opposition was far from tapped out.

@robp2 said:

@coinkat said:
I did not realize there was an upcoming second offering in 5-6 months... the plot thickens.

No plot. The whole collection is being sold.

I catalogued it for him in 2013 when there was approx. 850 British plus the Roman. More have been added since, so enough for at least 1 more sale and possibly a second depending on how many they want to put out at a time.

This is exciting to hear. I wanted to ask if the remaining collection contains more English Shillings? George IV forward?

robp2

@Clio said:

This is exciting to hear. I wanted to ask if the remaining collection contains more English Shillings? George IV forward?

Not a lot. In 2014-15 he took some of my redundant Victorian because he was quite light on the later stuff. e.g. the penultimate lot yesterday was one I sold him - too many 7+Gs given I had decided to diversify. I also sold him a really attractive 1873 shilling that was surplus to requirements. That will do well. He also bought a few things like a 1911 proof set.

SmEagle1795

I bought one ex-Cope ancient - it's both an upgrade for me and a token to remember a departed friend. He was indeed a wonderful person and extremely passionate collector: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4515&l=5378824

Boosibri

Congrats!

coinkat

It will e interesting to see what is offered next.

robp2

@coinkat said:
It will e interesting to see what is offered next.

A significant number of Charles I will be present because they had to prune back the offerings last time due to the Motcomb sale 12 days before, which also had some rare gems. Geoff liked Charles I.