Thanks for the lesson. I guess if I look at hundreds of DDO/DDR coins at Variety Vista I'll PROBABLY find an example of MD on a DDO/DDR coin struck with worn dies. There has to be one out there.
My primary collection is fifty cent pieces. Here are two valuable QDO varieties that look a lot like this 1944-s cent.
In 1944 the US Mint was reissuing the Lincoln cent back from zinc to copper. New dies means new mistakes by the US mint. This could be "ONE" die, used briefly before the error was caught, there for rare, and likely the only one found.
There are a number of Kennedy 50C and Jefferson 5C pieces listed as DDO's, recognized by PCGS with the doubling showing in the date, MM, LBERTY, but not in the motto or face image.
Still, the separation is not quite the same. The images above have more spread and the strikes come to points. IMO, there is no point sending it into a TPGS. The error authenticators need to verify it first.
@JBK said:
The mintmark looks doubled (or more) so that suggests MD since the mm were manually added to the dies back then.
The 1942 Lincoln cent DDO and RPM has all of these features, DDO of the date and LIBERTY and RPM, FS-101/103. Are you saying that coin is really only a RPM with MD date and LIBERTY?
So why are there a number of Kennedy 50C and Jefferson 5C pieces listed in CherryPicker's and graded by PCGS as DDO and TRD with the tripling and doubling on all elements on the reverse, and for the DDO the date, the LIBERTY and the mint mark, but not on the motto or face? Are they all misidentified MD? The people who bought them at a premium as graded as DDO and TDR by PCGS are going to be pissed.
These photos have been sent to James Wiles, so when and if I hear from him I'll post it.
In 1944 the US Mint was reissuing the Lincoln cent back from zinc to copper. New dies means new mistakes by the US mint.
What is this supposed to mean?
Ther mint makes new dies every year. The change in composition had nothing to do with new dies being made.
Yes, new dies, new mistakes like this one. I'm thinking the change from striking zinc to striking copper would have called for new dies. There are a lot more 1944 cent errors than in the years around 1944. Makes me think new dies, new errors.
@Married2Coins said:
Still, the separation is not quite the same. The images above have more spread and the strikes come to points. IMO, there is no point sending it into a TPGS. The error authenticators need to verify it first.
Are any two DDOs, DDRs, TDO or TDR's exactly the same? If my camera had photographed this coin at a little different angle would the points look exactly like what you see on the half dollar, maybe, sure are very, very close.
@JBK said:
The mintmark looks doubled (or more) so that suggests MD since the mm were manually added to the dies back then.
The 1942 Lincoln cent DDO and RPM has all of these features, DDO of the date and LIBERTY and RPM, FS-101/103. Are you saying that coin is really only a RPM with MD date and LIBERTY?
So why are there a number of Kennedy 50C and Jefferson 5C pieces listed in CherryPicker's and graded by PCGS as DDO and TRD with the tripling and doubling on all elements on the reverse, and for the DDO the date, the LIBERTY and the mint mark, but not on the motto or face? Are they all misidentified MD? The people who bought them at a premium as graded as DDO and TDR by PCGS are going to be pissed.
These photos have been sent to James Wiles, so when and if I hear from him I'll post it.
Certainly... if you do not like the opinions the majority have expressed here.... follow through as you see fit. Hopefully you included the photo of the mintmark with those you sent to James Wiles. That photo, IMO, says it all.
Also, please post the followup on what you find out.
@JBK said:
The mintmark looks doubled (or more) so that suggests MD since the mm were manually added to the dies back then.
The 1942 Lincoln cent DDO and RPM has all of these features, DDO of the date and LIBERTY and RPM, FS-101/103. Are you saying that coin is really only a RPM with MD date and LIBERTY?
So why are there a number of Kennedy 50C and Jefferson 5C pieces listed in CherryPicker's and graded by PCGS as DDO and TRD with the tripling and doubling on all elements on the reverse, and for the DDO the date, the LIBERTY and the mint mark, but not on the motto or face? Are they all misidentified MD? The people who bought them at a premium as graded as DDO and TDR by PCGS are going to be pissed.
These photos have been sent to James Wiles, so when and if I hear from him I'll post it.
Certainly... if you do not like the opinions the majority have expressed here.... follow through as you see fit. Hopefully you included the photo of the mintmark with those you sent to James Wiles. That photo, IMO, says it all.
Also, please post the followup on what you find out.
Are discussions only one way here, you regulars opinion's (who don't agree with each other) with no counters point allowed? You guys sure are hostile to each other. As you expressed your opinions, I have provided more information, nothing person, just questions. Are you right -- are you wrong, I don't know, just asking questions and answering yours. These discussions have been interesting and occasionally informative.
I sent Wiles many more photos than are posted here.
I've said it before, we need a benevolent foundation to house and rehabilitate otherwise good people who see grandiose visions of quadrupled dies, it's our fault for starting this mess
In 1944 the US Mint was reissuing the Lincoln cent back from zinc to copper. New dies means new mistakes by the US mint.
What is this supposed to mean?
Ther mint makes new dies every year. The change in composition had nothing to do with new dies being made.
Yes, new dies, new mistakes like this one. I'm thinking the change from striking zinc to striking copper would have called for new dies. There are a lot more 1944 cent errors than in the years around 1944. Makes me think new dies, new errors.
Your lack of knowledge is showing again. 1943 cents were zinc plated steel. If there had been changes to the dies it would have been due to the steel, not zinc. But I am not aware of any such changes.
You're just making it up as you go to try to rationalize your theories.
Even though this post feedback has not been informative as I'd hoped (lots of fighting amongst yourselves about your facts) you've at least all been very entertaining.
Are discussions only one way here, you regulars opinion's (who don't agree with each other) with no counters point allowed? You guys sure are hostile to each other.
When the discussion leaves the coin and turns to people, that is not good.
In 1944 the US Mint was reissuing the Lincoln cent back from zinc to copper. New dies means new mistakes by the US mint.
What is this supposed to mean?
Ther mint makes new dies every year. The change in composition had nothing to do with new dies being made.
Yes, new dies, new mistakes like this one. I'm thinking the change from striking zinc to striking copper would have called for new dies. There are a lot more 1944 cent errors than in the years around 1944. Makes me think new dies, new errors.
In what way would there be new dies created in 1944 that would be any different from the normal process of creating new dies in other years?
@CoinNewBee said:
Even though this post feedback has not been informative as I'd hoped (lots of fighting amongst yourselves about your facts) you've at least all been very entertaining.
@CoinNewBee said:
Even though this post feedback has not been informative as I'd hoped (lots of fighting amongst yourselves about your facts) you've at least all been very entertaining.
Thanks for the lesson. I guess if I look at hundreds of DDO/DDR coins at Variety Vista I'll PROBABLY find an example of MD on a DDO/DDR coin struck with worn dies. There has to be one out there.
My primary collection is fifty cent pieces. Here are two valuable QDO varieties that look a lot like this 1944-s cent.
@JBK said:
The mintmark looks doubled (or more) so that suggests MD since the mm were manually added to the dies back then.
The 1942 Lincoln cent DDO and RPM has all of these features, DDO of the date and LIBERTY and RPM, FS-101/103. Are you saying that coin is really only a RPM with MD date and LIBERTY?
So why are there a number of Kennedy 50C and Jefferson 5C pieces listed in CherryPicker's and graded by PCGS as DDO and TRD with the tripling and doubling on all elements on the reverse, and for the DDO the date, the LIBERTY and the mint mark, but not on the motto or face? Are they all misidentified MD? The people who bought them at a premium as graded as DDO and TDR by PCGS are going to be pissed.
These photos have been sent to James Wiles, so when and if I hear from him I'll post it.
I don't think I even remotely implied that. It partly depends on which class of doubling were talking about. For example, on a Class 1, the issue is rotation of the hub. How far (distance) any element moves depends on how far you are from the axis of rotation. The angular deviation is uniform but not the distance. So the 1972 above or a 1955 show more separation the farther they are from the center.
Class IV would show uniform separation on the doubled elements but, I believe, not on the whole coin but near the center. Though I'm not expert on IV's.
@Married2Coins said:
Still, the separation is not quite the same. The images above have more spread and the strikes come to points. IMO, there is no point sending it into a TPGS. The error authenticators need to verify it first.
Are any two DDOs, DDRs, TDO or TDR's exactly the same? If my camera had photographed this coin at a little different angle would the points look exactly like what you see on the half dollar, maybe, sure are very, very close.
Any DDO from the same die should be EXACTLY the same. It's not alphabet soup. The letters don't move around.
In 1944 the US Mint was reissuing the Lincoln cent back from zinc to copper. New dies means new mistakes by the US mint.
What is this supposed to mean?
Ther mint makes new dies every year. The change in composition had nothing to do with new dies being made.
Yes, new dies, new mistakes like this one. I'm thinking the change from striking zinc to striking copper would have called for new dies. There are a lot more 1944 cent errors than in the years around 1944. Makes me think new dies, new errors.
That is incorrect. They don't make any more new dies or hubs based on a planchet change.
Comments
My primary collection is fifty cent pieces. Here are two valuable QDO varieties that look a lot like this 1944-s cent.
The 1944-S cent
1964 proof Kennedy 50C
1964 SP Kenney 50C
Both 50C pieces as shown in CherryPickers' Guide
Always more to know!
Married2Coins,
In 1944 the US Mint was reissuing the Lincoln cent back from zinc to copper. New dies means new mistakes by the US mint. This could be "ONE" die, used briefly before the error was caught, there for rare, and likely the only one found.
There are a number of Kennedy 50C and Jefferson 5C pieces listed as DDO's, recognized by PCGS with the doubling showing in the date, MM, LBERTY, but not in the motto or face image.
Always more to know!
Still, the separation is not quite the same. The images above have more spread and the strikes come to points. IMO, there is no point sending it into a TPGS. The error authenticators need to verify it first.
So why are there a number of Kennedy 50C and Jefferson 5C pieces listed in CherryPicker's and graded by PCGS as DDO and TRD with the tripling and doubling on all elements on the reverse, and for the DDO the date, the LIBERTY and the mint mark, but not on the motto or face? Are they all misidentified MD? The people who bought them at a premium as graded as DDO and TDR by PCGS are going to be pissed.
These photos have been sent to James Wiles, so when and if I hear from him I'll post it.
Always more to know!
What is this supposed to mean?
The mint makes new dies every year. The change in composition had nothing to do with new dies being made.
Yes, new dies, new mistakes like this one. I'm thinking the change from striking zinc to striking copper would have called for new dies. There are a lot more 1944 cent errors than in the years around 1944. Makes me think new dies, new errors.
Always more to know!
Are any two DDOs, DDRs, TDO or TDR's exactly the same? If my camera had photographed this coin at a little different angle would the points look exactly like what you see on the half dollar, maybe, sure are very, very close.
Always more to know!
Certainly... if you do not like the opinions the majority have expressed here.... follow through as you see fit. Hopefully you included the photo of the mintmark with those you sent to James Wiles. That photo, IMO, says it all.
Also, please post the followup on what you find out.
Are discussions only one way here, you regulars opinion's (who don't agree with each other) with no counters point allowed? You guys sure are hostile to each other. As you expressed your opinions, I have provided more information, nothing person, just questions. Are you right -- are you wrong, I don't know, just asking questions and answering yours. These discussions have been interesting and occasionally informative.
I sent Wiles many more photos than are posted here.
Always more to know!
I've said it before, we need a benevolent foundation to house and rehabilitate otherwise good people who see grandiose visions of quadrupled dies, it's our fault for starting this mess
Your lack of knowledge is showing again. 1943 cents were zinc plated steel. If there had been changes to the dies it would have been due to the steel, not zinc. But I am not aware of any such changes.
You're just making it up as you go to try to rationalize your theories.
Even though this post feedback has not been informative as I'd hoped (lots of fighting amongst yourselves about your facts) you've at least all been very entertaining.
Always more to know!
When the discussion leaves the coin and turns to people, that is not good.
In what way would there be new dies created in 1944 that would be any different from the normal process of creating new dies in other years?
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Fly away, NewBee.
I'm surprised you didn't say "buzz off".
No one disallows your counterpoints, I read ‘em.
The regulars’ opinions here range from:
cool, but MD to low value MD. We do not conflict awfully.
Sarcasm is not professional nor courteous, it is an emotional reaction.
Maybe you mean it, but it’s time to seek affirmation in other forums.
The newmismatists on eBay would love that cent, no matter what it is called, just from the photos. They would bid it over my offer.
Notice there is NO elevation difference in the QDOs
I don't think I even remotely implied that. It partly depends on which class of doubling were talking about. For example, on a Class 1, the issue is rotation of the hub. How far (distance) any element moves depends on how far you are from the axis of rotation. The angular deviation is uniform but not the distance. So the 1972 above or a 1955 show more separation the farther they are from the center.
Class IV would show uniform separation on the doubled elements but, I believe, not on the whole coin but near the center. Though I'm not expert on IV's.
Any DDO from the same die should be EXACTLY the same. It's not alphabet soup. The letters don't move around.
That is incorrect. They don't make any more new dies or hubs based on a planchet change.