Unique? Quadruple Die Obverse 1944-S Lincoln Cent
CoinNewBee
Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
Is this QDO 1944-S Lincoln Wheat Cent Unique? Any idea what it's worth?
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4
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Neat. Please, if you would, post shots of both sides of the whole coin.
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Two headed coin?
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The mintmark looks doubled (or more) so that suggests MD since the mm were manually added to the dies back then.
Look like MD.
Also, if you understand what die varieties are, you'd never expect a variety to be unique, even if it was a newly discovered.
Have to agree with the statement of the mintmark having the same looking multiple effects. Thus, not a doubled or quadrupled die IMO. But... an interesting coin!
That die must have been vibrating or something during the strike! Lots of chatter!
I think that @FredWeinberg called a similar effect “ejection doubling” on a quarter that was tripled.
I do not know its worth. (Thanks for the whole coin shot. You posted two obverse photos)
That is worth about 10c retail, 3c whole sale. It’s Machine doubling but even if it was a slightly die doubled it would still be minor with a very small pool of people interested. Varieties are more about publicity stoking demand often needing naked eye pop than just being there. Every coin was made with a unique die pair and at some level these tiny markers make them all varieties. The real question as always is who cares enough to buy one.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
MD. Nice close-up pics btw!
Your photo is the size of a plate, and I see nothing, therefore it is too minor to matter. The only time one sees shelf doubling or whatever is when one blows it up with something along the lines of an electron microscope
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The 1942 Lincoln cent DDO and RPM has all of these features, DDO of the date and LIBERTY and RPM, FS-101/103. Are you saying that coin is really only a RPM with MD date and LIBERTY?
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Unless another of this error has been found...this is unique
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Shelf doubling would not show the individual strikes separations at the bottom or top of each doubled letter or number.
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The key work being "expect". One would expect to find more of a die variety after discovery, because dies are used to strike many more than one coin. Thus not unique.
That's not what he's saying. He's suggesting that since the mintmark shows the same variation as the other elements that it is NOT an RPM or a QDO but simply "machine doubling" of the entire coin.
Have you looked at the 1942-S Lincoln cent DDO and RPM (FS-101/103)? I'm not sure what coin you're looking at to say these are tiny marks.
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A double die is created... by multiple punches into the die that are slightly misaligned, creating the doubled die effect. Thus, since the die is doubled (or tripled or quadrupled) every coin produced by that die will have the same doubling, etc.
The real clue is the mintmark. The mintmark is added AFTER the die is produced/completed, and was applied with a hand punch. Thus, it will not display the doubling that a true doubled die may have. (although there are certainly repunched mintmarks, but there again, will not likely match the doubled die features).
Thus, since your coin shows the same doubling, tripling,etc. the rest of the coins shows, means it is not a doubled die, but was an effect produced AFTER the coin was first struck. Something like ejection doubling, or machine doubling, etc. An interesting coin, but not a doubled die or quadrupled die.
It is a more interesting one, and you may be able to get a few dollars for it... but I doubt you will get much unless another less experienced uninformed collector may think it is a doubled die.
Certainly, if you are not satisfied with opinions given here, you can send in to PCGS for grading and certification. If you can get it certified as a doubled die, etc... then you will have the satisfaction of 'told you so', and have a unique and likely high value coin. But... IMO, you will be wasting your money. Thanks for sharing the excellent photos of the coin.
There are> @tincup said:
Then how do you explain the 1942-S Lincoln cent DDO & RPM FS-101/103 RPM?
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MD would not have the separations of each layer as is seen on this coin.
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What a waste
OP, I see from your thread history that you've been misdiagnosing DDs for over 12 years.
Instead of learning, you've just become more combative in that time.
Other coin forums might give you more satisfaction, try them.
I‘ll make you a standing offer of twenty bucks.
PM anytime.
OK, I tried; my good deed for the day (or so I thought).
My advice now is to send in to PCGS for certification; and then you will find out for sure. (or perhaps you may still disagree with whatever they may tell you). Good luck.
Incorrect. The "layers" is exactly why it is NOT QDO. When a die is doubled, you don't typically see altitude gradations, you see lateral shift of the elements.
Those are actual varieties not machine chatter.
You just explained it in your description. Think about it.
A coin can have machine doubling AND and an RPM. They aren't mutually exclusive.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Such a pleasure talking with you guys.
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Why, thank you.
Likewise! Glad we could help. Who knows? You may be right, I have been wrong many times before. Let us know the results after you send it in for certification. I recommend sending to our host PCGS, though ANACS does have a pretty good variety indentification and attribution service for varieties, and not as expensive (though certainly not the prestige the PCGS label would have). Again, good luck....
Definitely, multiple MD -- way too thin to be otherwise even if such a die had existed, which it didn't.
You totally misunderstand what a double die actually is it seems, it occurs at some level in the master to working die creation and exactly where will have a big influence on how many double die coins are minted from it. RPM is totally different, since mint marks were hand punched onto the dies distinct from the die making process until recent times.
The best thing to do is to gain an understanding of the minting process during the relevant period to understand what can and cannot happen at the mint, and how what you see or think you see occurs.
This sure is and so is this.
I know what a DDO is and MD but I see one large spread on the 9 (MD); maybe no spread or a very tiny spread on the S; and three spreads on Liberty. Shouldn't all the spreads be the same with MD. Why can't a doubled die have MD too?
No. Die Deterioration Doubling which also falls under the MD banner does not require uniform spread.
I have another suggestion.
Try emailing the author of variety vista and ask his opinion. It will save you the hassle and cost of certification, that the others here have recommended. Email: jameswiles@sbcglobal.net
I hope that this suggestion proves useful.
Very helpful. Thank you!
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I think you may wish to edit your post. AFAIK, MD and worn die doubling are two different and very distinct looking forms of worthless doubling that do not "fall under anything." IMO, that is not die deterioration on "Liberty" I believe there is a quad struck Oregon 50c that looks just like this. It is an interesting coin. MD is the easy answer. Sometimes the easy answer misses the mark.
No, I'm good. People say MD or strike doubling as a blanket for all forms of worthless doubling. Haven't you noticed?
Rarely is their uniform doubling across all elements in any form of doubling.
No, I have not noticed. You are the first and I was shocked. I 'm not interested in reading what "people say" who know much less than the posters at the level of expertise you commonly demonstrate here! We have hisagreed several times and I'll add this from you also: "Rarely is their uniform doubling across all elements in any form of doubling." Please tell me where to look for more than one genuine doubled die coins that are also machined doubled or worn die doubled. I've never read about such an occurance but I'm sure you must have see quite a few to use the term "rarely" above.
Huh?
A. "Uniform doubling" referred to the separation not the type.
B. Since you asked: Almost every legitimate doubled die probably has cases were MD co-exists. MD happens in the press and is ubiquitous which is why it keeps popping up here as a rare new "doubled die". If you have a doubled die churning or coins, you're likely to get a few with strike doubling. What would make a DD immune to strike doubling.
You might need more coffee.
No, what I need is less weasel attempts to excuse what appear to a less knowledgeable member [ME and perhaps the OP] as contradictions such as "RARELY" being changed to "PROBABLY." Where I come from, if we say something we can back it up. SO, I will try to find an image of the quad Oregon coin and perhaps you'll explain the difference for me.
What is all this about -- there is no 1944-S die doubling, tripling, quadrupling, quintupling, etc. Someone needs to study up on how a DDO actually occurs --- by a die being doubled and then striking planchets creating said doubled (or so on) coins. It is more rare the farther down the working hub and die chain it happens, and if only a single die and it is noticed early it is quite rare. Some occur higher in the process and the doubling is common and of less value.
Why argue about something that cannot be from a die problem, but must be a quite interesting and perhaps valuable mechanical doubling, even with whatever strange circumstances of die wear and vibration caused this interesting result? Double striking would be a whole different mess and would not result in a clear legible coin like this, it would be a wreck. Actually, to study the process and quit pulling crazy ideas out of your .
There are known RPM's for the 44-S... looks like your coun could be one of those known RPMs.
There are also known DDO for this year. When I look at the full coin image I do not confirm your magnified images. I would be interested if the doubling of the doubling is an effect in the imaging process.
I do not see clear seriff separation which makes me question a lot. If it were mine I would email coneca and if they were interested I would send it to them.
Could be interesting but the full coin images, IMO, do not confirm the magnified images.
http://www.varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/1944SDDO005.htm
http://www.varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/DDO 1944-S.htm
http://www.varietyvista.com/02a LC RPMs Vol 1/RPMs 1944S.htm
Huh?
I didn't change rarely to probably. I was talking about 2 different things. RARELY does a DD have uniform separation of images in all elements in the coin. Depends a bit on what type of DD but there are many that show separation on one element, say the date, and less separation on IGWT.
Look at the separation difference even in the one and the two in the date of the 1972 DDO
There are PROBABLY MD/DDD examples of all DD's since MD/DDD is just a random striking issue. It is impossible to be more definitive because coins tend not to be certified or cataloged as MD/DDD. I can't imagine an auction description saying "Classic 1955 DDO that also shows minor die deterioration doubing. "
Or look at how some elements in the 1972-D show doubling and others none at all.
www.varietyvista.com/09d WQ Vol 4 DC/01b LC Doubled Dies Vol 2/1972DDDO002.htm
No one in this discussion that I have read (INCLUDING ME) has posted that the OP's coin is 100% a quad or triple die coin. I posted that IT IS INTERESTING and that it does not look like all the muti features are caused by the same thing - MD! I also posted that I have seen this quad stuff somewhere in a published press release, article , or photo on an Oregon 50c attributed as a triple or quad die error by error experts.
Furthermore, anyone here who thinks that all the DD coins that have been made in the past have already been discovered is...whatever.
@jmlanzaf
Thanks for the lesson. I guess if I look at hundreds of DDO/DDR coins at Variety Vista I'll PROBABLY find an example of MD on a DDO/DDR coin struck with worn dies. There has to be one out there.