Early Copper Collectors... Raw or Holdered?

lkenefic

Hello Everyone... a few recent threads and attendance at the last Baltimore show got me to think about the future of collecting in this arena... Early American Coppers (EAC). I've been collecting these off and on since I was a kid, and the majority of collections seemed to be raw coins. I usually go to the Baltimore show when it comes around (3x/year) and frequent the major EAC dealer tables and noticed a significant change to the coins being offered... fewer raw coins and much more slabbed material. Is this a "sea-change" in this collecting arena as a whole?

RLSnapper

I think that new collectors value the TPG opinion of a coin. I have been collecting Large Cents for 3 years and most of my coins are PCGS holdered. I know EAC purists have almost all their coins raw and will crack out new puchases.
When it comes time to part with coins I imagine coins in a TPG holder will bring a greater return.
As an aside since I like to have a digital album to look at the PCGS registry is very helpful.....easier for me to look at truviews than my coins with a loupe....especially with my eyesight at 61 not being the same as 31.

MidLifeCrisis

If it's a "sea-change", I'll be glad to see it. I strongly prefer slabbed over raw. I've been collecting colonial and early copper coins off and on for about 18 years. Still, I haven't taken the time to become an expert with such coins to the extent that I would trust myself with a raw coin of any significant value. I rely on the grading services to provide a base level of comfort. They are not perfect. I've purchased a few problem coins in slabs that were not labeled as such and I had to learn the hard way. But I'd still much rather have that baseline than not.

jesbroken

I have always been a raw collector, but with the allowance of the powers that be to let China sabotage our hobby, slabbing has become more prevalent by all. It's heart breaking to see someone that has spent large sums for a raw 1802 DBHC only to find out some time later it is worthless. I still buy raw copper, but not the more rare ones. Thanks to Jack( @burfle23 ) I am becoming better at "C" detection along with having samples from his work to visually help identifying them.
Jim

BillJones

Among early copper collectors who are my age and older, raw was much preferred. As that group has sold their collections or died, TPG has become the way to go.

The one disadvantage to TPG is the edge, “the third side of the coin.” I noticed this was I was working on the photos for a presentation on early copper that I will give at the upcoming Summer FUN show. I had to scramble to get photos of the vine and bars and lettered edges of the early cents. I realized that I have not seen the edge of my Chain Cent, my avatar, for over 20 years!

epc

Yes, there are some "militant" anti-slab folks among EAC collectors. But every time a major collection is sold off, the coins get slabbed for the sale if they weren't already in holders. One notices the difference between, say, the Naftzger collection sales of large cents (essentially all new-at-the-time PCGS holders) and the Gardner collection sales of mostly Seated material (mostly in a good mix of older and then current PCGS and NGC slabs, as he purchased them).

I prefer to have coins of any significant value in slabs. Yes, the professional grade opinion matters, but I mostly want the coins protected from thumbs and worse. I really hate fingerprints.

Walkerguy21D

Modern counterfeiting aside, alterations and doctoring of large cents has been going on for well over 100 years. The TPGs help provide some level of protection against these.

I’ve noticed an increased acceptance of slabbing of large cents. I think that the high dollar values involved, along with registery set collecting, has been driving this, and the dealers are complying.

oldabeintx

For some time it was difficult to find Colonial varieties in slabs. Much easier now. No need to take the risk with raw unless one gets into the real esoteric stuff.

jedm

I have been collecting old copper for about 20 years and started with raw, later date large cents. As my "needed" coins became a bit more scarce and higher dollar I began to get slabbed examples to sort of protect myself a little bit. I think the most I spent on a raw large cent was just a bit over $2500, but I haven't bought an example that cost over maybe $200 or so raw in a very long time. I don't plan to add very many raw coins to my collection unless they're on the lower end of my average and most likely something from a well respected dealer who I've done business with in the past.

Catbert

As early copper pieces have risen in market value (especially unmolested pieces), it is understandable that more copper is ending up in slabs. Slabs make it easier to protect, validate, and sell coins.

NeophyteNumismatist

I collect TPG graded, but I worry about that sometimes. I worry about my coins in holders going unconditioned and unbrushed. Copper has been preserved well for hundreds of years with annual brushing and storage in cotton pillows. My slabs are not truly sealed... will I one day have to crack high grade coins out in order to save them?

I think about this a lot actually.

Catbert

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
I collect TPG graded, but I worry about that sometimes. I worry about my coins in holders going unconditioned and unbrushed. Copper has been preserved well for hundreds of years with annual brushing and storage in cotton pillows. My slabs are not truly sealed... will I one day have to crack high grade coins out in order to save them?

I think about this a lot actually.

In my view, this is needless worry! Keep an eye on them and if one starts to turn, then you can catch it early. Think about all the coins in early slabs that have 40+ years on them and they look just fine.

Walkerguy21D

@Catbert said:

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
I collect TPG graded, but I worry about that sometimes. I worry about my coins in holders going unconditioned and unbrushed. Copper has been preserved well for hundreds of years with annual brushing and storage in cotton pillows. My slabs are not truly sealed... will I one day have to crack high grade coins out in order to save them?

I think about this a lot actually.

In my view, this is needless worry! Keep an eye on them and if one starts to turn, then you can catch it early. Think about all the coins in early slabs that have 40+ years on them and they look just fine.

Agree, this coin hasn’t changed at all in the ~30 years I’ve owned it:

Catbert

The half cent in this video was slabbed in 2012. Nothing has changed from then.

https://player.vimeo.com/video/933476231

Coins4Eli

Far and beyond I like my copper raw! Even UNC examples.
I like to grade my coins by EAC standards, so having a cent graded is of no use to me.
I also think its more fun to be able to personally hold the pieces, instead of them being locked away in plastic.

Here's one of my cents. The finest known terminal die state 1798 S-148. While there are a lot of coins of the same die variety in nicer shape without the final die break on the lower bust, this is the finest one with that break.

EAC VG-8 Sharpness, Net G-6.
Ex; Eric P. Newman.

lkenefic

I think the issue that @BillJones brought up about not being able to see the "third side" of the coin is a valid concern. I've bought a few slabbed Large Cents that ultimately got cracked and I only noticed the rim issues afterwards. I think the PCGS three-prong slab at least reveals some of the rim and is translucent enough for the collector to pick out any issues where the prong meets the coin.

I suppose one of the issues I had with TPGs in general for graded copper is consistency. This really came to light when I was looking for a straight-graded VF Classic Head Large Cent for my 7070. I could find them for multiples of Guide Book pricing and even some of those had some issues. It sort of reminded me of a different recent thread about the fate of "details coins".

Regardless of consistency in grading issues, I think that, overall, younger collectors are gravitating to TPGs because it takes at least a little bit of the guesswork out of grading and does fairly well in catching obviously cleaned, altered, and (especially) counterfeit coins. I've purchased "details" coins in the past, but the deficiency was printed on the label. Here's an example of a details I'm proud to have in my collection:
The scratch is pretty obvious...

I just wish that the "Strike Through" error on the reverse would have been noted on this one...

Walkerguy21D

Agree with the issue of consistency…..it’s frustrating to see coins in older straight grade holders with various issues, that if submitted today (or if submitted by me anyway 😆) would get deets holdered. On the bright side, I think at least PCGS has gotten pretty strict on grading large cents, so the coins I’m seeing in newer holders are generally problem free and solid for or even under graded.

Walkerguy21D

Here’s my first slabbed large cent purchase, from Larry Briggs at a small show around 1990.
I recall taking it to a show being held in conjunction with an EAC convention; I showed it to one of the fellows who offered to crack it out and brush it for me. He was concerned about the little bit of schmutz on the E in UNITED.
I politely declined, and the spot and the rest of the coin is unchanged.

hbarbee

I am putting together a EAC type set. These are very high grade examples and they are all in PCGS holders. However, that is only because it is quite an investment and I wanted to be assured that the examples are genuine. With that said, I am a member of EAC and I recognize that there are a lot of folks in that organization who are skilled in evaluating early copper coins and I certainly am not. The grades assigned by a TPG will differ, and sometimes by a lot, from the grade determined by an EAC expert. Additionally the "details" attribute assigned to so many EAC coins by the TPGs can be a factor in the net EAC grade but is not necessarily a death sentence for the coin. Hope this helps.

lkenefic

I still appreciate the information I can get from a 2x2 paper holder or an auction card slipped into the holder. Attributions, any deficiencies explained, etc... I also appreciate being able to physically hold the coin. That said, I'd never purchase a raw Chain Cent...

Examples of Seller's 2x2, Attribution Cards.... etc...

lkenefic

For comparison... here's an ANACS graded 1855 that I also have the Grellman card for...

golden

All of mine are PCGS.

rhedden

My thoughts on slabbing early copper coins haven't changed much in 20 years.

Common date Type coins: slab it, because the value is highly dependent on grade. Example: Unc. Braided Hair cents, Randall Hoard cents in MS grades, etc. There's a big difference between PCGS MS63 vs. MS64 vs. MS65 and BN vs. RB in the price guides. The slab has the added benefit of keeping dust and particles off the coin, which might turn into carbon spots a few years later.

Circulated better dates or die marriages: leave it raw. Why on Earth do I need to slab an R5 1790's large cent that has slight porosity? Do I really need to look at a dark coin though the reflections off the plastic, only to be told that it has VG Details / Environmental Damage by the TPG?

Walkerguy21D

Agree with @rhedden …..that’s why I still have quite a few raw coins, that are either low grade, or would gets deets holders:

jmski52

I started with Large Cents around 1986-1988, but when I transitioned into upgrading and becoming a more "serious" Large Cent collector, I decided to slab my better coins around 2008, and now they are all graded & slabbed.

I do miss being able to handle the coins directly and I'm tempted to start a nice lower grade collection just for that purpose. Large Cents are just plain "cool".

Eddi

I, too, have noticed that more and more early large cents 1793-1814 are offered in slabs. However, speaking for myself, I would only contemplate slabbing my EAC collection in order to make it easier for my wife and sons to dispose of my collection, if they ever should decide to do so.

I agree with @rhedden 's comment: do I need encapsulation to learn that this coin is pitted throughout? even though it is a coin which I thoroughly enjoy in spite of all of its shortcomings.