Shield of Seated Dimes 1838-1840 No Drapery

seatedlib3991

I will be surprised if more than 3 people show an interest but I have stumbled across an odd feature involving the Seated Dimes of 1838-1840 No Drapery. Mind you I only have a tiny population of 3 coins in hand. All three coins feature a full liberty but have faint to almost no shield lines. I consider all the coins accurately graded by PCGS. In all other ways they are Very Fine Grade coins.
I greatly prefer the Seated Dime design that existed before the Robert Ball Hughes redesign. I decided to build a Very Fine date set of that group. The problem I have run into is that every single reference book either skips the 38-40 ND coins or lumps them with the Hughes design. So far I have tried the ANA grading Guide, The Bowers Redbook on Seated Coins, Three versions of Photograde, Coin Values Making The Grade, Brown & Dunn, The Brian Greer book and checked the Fortin site for information. not one source mentions a weak shield.
I have found a few that show the No Stars variety and indeed, if you look at the shield lines in the original Photograde or the fourth edition of the ANA Grading guide, many of those coins lack shield lines but no mention of this tendency is made.
I have always accepted the historical version put forth that an over exaggerated sense of decency and modesty drove the redesign but now I wonder if it wasn't a technical issue. Breen even mocks then mint director Patterson's claim the change was made to "improve striking" pg. 309.
also, does anyone know of a grading guide that shows the No Drapery coins in a grading sequence without incorporating the Hughes design? any feedback appreciated. James

Mr_Spud

Here’s my AU58, if that helps. It seems to have shield lines similar to other dates with drapery

BillJones

Here's a few dimes from the pre-Robert Hughes period. The Hughes interpretation of the design was inferior, in my opinion, but it probably struck up better or resulted in less die wear in the mass produced setting.

Here is an example of Hughes interpretation.

A Proof from some years later.

Manifest_Destiny

@BillJones said:
The Hughes interpretation of the design was inferior.....

Definitely true. Halves seem to be the only denomination where the original design was followed for the most part.

johnny9434

Love the 1838 dime, just saying

davewesen

too many versions of the seated dimes to photo-grade them all. Here is a lower grade than yours with die crack in lower shield. So are you saying all the lines wear quickly, or top horizontal first?

yosclimber

I use the 4th edition ANA Grading Standards book, too.
It does not mention any shield lines for 1837-59,
so it is not an official marker for grading.

Of course you are free to develop your own grading markers or thresholds for the VF set you are building.
My dad had his own grading criteria for Indian cents, including the horizontal shield lines on the reverse.

Are you referring to horizontal lines, vertical lines, or both?

Gerry Fortin's guide does mention some shield line weakness for these No Stars dates:

Comments: 1837 dimes are always available but carry a premium due to type status. They are usually well struck but can exhibit weakness in the horizontal shield lines.

https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/date_mintmark/1837varpage.htm

Comments: Striking weakness is common in the shield lines followed by the head and foot areas.

https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/date_mintmark/1838ovarpage.htm

For the other No Drapery dates, he does not mention shield line weakness in his Comments, but this is likely because he instead discusses major cracked varieties in those Comments sections.

jesbroken

Here is an old Seated Dime no/drapery. Shield pretty worn. Not a great condition coin, but looks fair.
Jim

seatedlib3991

To be specific about shield lines. all three coins have very weak shield lines above the shield scroll. Two of the coins lack shield lines dead center both above and below the center scroll, IE; above and below the letters BER. I am just wondering if the with star no drapery coins wore unusually fast in that area. After all they changed the tilt and perhaps height of the scroll lines.
I understand you can use the no star variety as a sort of measure because the first star coins were suppose to be just no star dies with stars hand punched in but i am not familiar with the no star version enough to know what is common. james

Walkerguy21D

I just pulled these two out of my stock box, I see what you mean about the weakness in the shield lines. I have another ‘38 in my 7070 to check sometime.

Ownerofawheatiehorde

I always thought it was because the shield is a high point, but again I’ve never thought too deeply about it.