@HillbillyCollector said:
Yeah, I don’t think gold bullion will be affected by Iodine, or really anything because pure gold is stable.
>
I was thinking it was the copper in the alloy that was reacting to it (Iodine)
Am I looking at this wrong?
I might put some on a copper cent from circulation and see what happens after I’m done with the gold bar. Like I’ll get a pre 1982 cent and dip it to turn it pink and then put a drop of iodine on it or something like that. Maybe on a silver round too after that. I also found 2 modern 1/10 oz bullion gold eagles in 2x2’s in my bullion box that I may or may not try after all of that, they are 91.67% Au, 3% Ag, 5.33% Cu. Still not identical to pre-33 gold, but not pure gold like the bar. I’m not willing to ruin a real pre-33 gold coin and might even not do the 1/10 oz eagles, it’s like sacrilege to me. Back when I did AT experiments to learn what AT looks like, I limited my experiments to pocket change. I ended up learning a lot and it helped me to be able to spot AT coins better even though I didn’t do experiments on real collectable coins.
This was interesting to read. I had never heard of treating gold with iodine. Might experiment myself with a low premium pre-33 once I get back home for the summer.
Collector 75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting! instagram.com/klnumismatics
@Kliao said:
This was interesting to read. I had never heard of treating gold with iodine. Might experiment myself with a low premium pre-33 once I get back home for the summer.
Invalid. of course. The alloy is different sand the surface is different so the iodine stain should look different. Besides, it should dip off but I cannot be sure. l
So, after another hour and a half the tincture of iodine completely dried and was totally invisible (5th image below), so I put 2 more new drops of tincture of iodine on it (sixth image below).
I also remembered that I had some pure copper foil. So I cut off a square of it and cleaned both sides with a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser (a very fine abrasive pad made out of melamine, it makes microscopic scratches but you can’t see them) and put 4 drops of tincture of iodine % on it. I used the Magic Eraser to remove the surface toning off the copper to make it more reactive. The tincture of iodine immediately turned cloudy and looks like this (2nd picture below):
As for gold not being reactive with iodine, I keep finding references saying that gold does react with iodine. Like this reference
But I have no idea what it takes to make them react. Like, maybe it has to be heated, or it takes a long time to react or something. I have a feeling that, if I end up continuing to experiment, eventually I’ll figure it out. But yes, most likely it’s different between pure gold and impure gold.
My experiment isn’t going that great so far. I took two ratty double eagles and pretty much doused one side in iodine, then I went grocery shopping. A couple hours later, the iodine had dried on the saint but it was still pooled on the face of the lib. I rinsed them off with hot water and this is what’s left. The lib has some waxy green residue left behind.
The saint sort of has a reddish tinge now but definitely not the deep red/purple we see on the op coin. If anyone has suggestions of what to try on the next batch, feel free to chime in.
First, not all "iodine solutions" are the same. The one in the old thread from 2018 is 10% iodine, with glycerin and other chemicals to keep it dissolved (iodine does not dissolve well at all in regular water, you need to use either another solvent or a bunch of stabilizing chemicals; medicinal iodine obviously can't use solvents that are toxic or carcinogenic). The iodine bottle in this thread is only 2% iodine and does not mention which other chemicals might be present; probably ethanol, as that's commonly used in medicinal iodine.
Second, from what I can tell, the iodine isn't actually reacting with anything on a coin, or at least, it doesn't react with the gold at all and any reaction between the iodine and the copper in the gold alloy is not contributing to the artificial toning effect. The iodine is simply acting as a "paint", sitting on the surface and providing a "thin layer" from which the toning colouration derives. You could achieve much the same effect with a thin layer of oil, though oil of course is a liquid and leaves the coin feeling sticky, while the iodine is solid at room temperature. Though I'd think the glycerin in the 2018 formula would also make the coin's surface "sticky".
This is why there are reports of iodine toning appearing to "lift off the coin" under magnification. Gold is notoriously not-sticky, and a thin layer can easily peel away once it dries out.
As it is caused by a foreign substance sitting on the coin, "iodine toning" can be removed by solvent with no harm done to the coin, just like paint or varnish can be removed by solvent. Ethanol (alcohol) is a very good solvent for iodine, as noted above.
A thin layer of iodine is also likely to simply disappear all by itself over time (assuming it's pure iodine and contaminated with other stuff). Iodine, for a solid, is quite volatile and slowly sublimates (turns straight from a solid to a gas, without melting) at room temperature in open air. So, unlike normal toning which gets thicker and more colourful with age, iodine toning should slowly get thinner until it disappears entirely. Mild heat can greatly accelerate the rate of sublimation of iodine. This is also the reason why iodine toning can easily be detected by a gas chromatograph (which the TPGs have access to). Or the human nose.
Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one. Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
What is scary is that many people reading this must know the next steps. Is it heat, more concentration, or the addition of another chemical. I'd like to know too but I think this discussion should be closed.
A little more than an hour since the last pictures were taken, now the gold bar looks a bit hazy in the fields where the tincture of iodine has dried, still red near the raised letters where it’s still a bit wet (7th picture below)
And the tincture of iodine is opaque pink on the copper foil (3rd picture below)
@Married2Coins said:
What is scary is that many people reading this must know the next steps. Is it heat, more concentration, or the addition of another chemical. I'd like to know too but I think this discussion should be closed.
If you mean so I don’t accidentally end up teaching wannabe coin doctors, then ok, I can stop posting the results step by step. I might end up just posting the finished product though, if/when I end up making a gold bar or coin look like dirty old gold or at least turn it red so that we can all see an example of gold that’s for sure artifically toned with iodine. Like I did and still do with the pictures I took while doing my old pocket change AT experiments. I don’t explain how I made them, but went through a learning curve with different processes before coming up with colorful examples I use to educate. Heres a few examples
@Married2Coins said:
What is scary is that many people reading this must know the next steps. Is it heat, more concentration, or the addition of another chemical. I'd like to know too but I think this discussion should be closed.
If you mean so I don’t accidentally end up teaching wannabe coin doctors, then ok, I can stop posting the results step by step. I might end up just posting the finished product though, if/when I end up making a gold bar or coin look like dirty old gold or at least turn it red so that we can all see an example of gold that’s for sure artifically toned with iodine. Like I did and still do with the pictures I took while doing my old pocket change AT experiments. I don’t explain how I made them, but went through a learning curve with different processes before coming up with colorful examples I use to educate. Heres a few examples.
>
Yeah, this is what really interests me. Not the actual step by step as much, but the end result so that I can associate a particular ‘look’ with a particular process (ie. Iodine, etc.)
Found this article on jewelry (gold) and iodine. Probably can search and find more similar information. Mentions it as a protectant, color and design creation stuff. Article does make some references on what to do (need to mix it up and quality iodine) near the end.
@Married2Coins said:
What is scary is that many people reading this must know the next steps. Is it heat, more concentration, or the addition of another chemical. I'd like to know too but I think this discussion should be closed.
If you mean so I don’t accidentally end up teaching wannabe coin doctors, then ok, I can stop posting the results step by step. I might end up just posting the finished product though, if/when I end up making a gold bar or coin look like dirty old gold or at least turn it red so that we can all see an example of gold that’s for sure artifically toned with iodine. Like I did and still do with the pictures I took while doing my old pocket change AT experiments. I don’t explain how I made them, but went through a learning curve with different processes before coming up with colorful examples I use to educate. Heres a few examples
Thanks for the education and keep trying because IMO, those are all fails! There is a difference in what is going on here and WHAT MAY Result if the "right" members post. I learned that iodine reacts with gold and saw the chemical equation in this thread. Additionally, the best way to detect fakes is to make them! Therefore, on one hand I'm enjoying your experiments that I can't do myself. On the other, a coin doctor may wish to brag and post the exact way to tone coins. I've read much of it from highly sugared up urine, old motor oil, potatoes, and even dirty, old, hot MS-70. I'd love to know how to tone coins that are passed by a TPGS but I know it would be hard to resist the "Darkside."
A collector friend of mine who is a Male nurse uses betadine anapestic which contains iodine
turns silver light purple or pinkish. amateur experimenter coin doctor. easy to tell once you see one and know what was done. have seen a some on eBay.
I think using 999 find gold bars rather than a gold coin will make your experiment unvalid.
Maybe. I’ll find out.
Er,
I suggested this much earlier in the thread.......... No Cu, no Ag. Gold is a noble metal, that means it does not bond or react with other elements in its pure form. Nobility means something. HST you might dissolve it, but it won't bond. Need more chemically active elements like Cu and Ag...........
@Mr_Spud said:
As for gold not being reactive with iodine, I keep finding references saying that gold does react with iodine. Like this reference
But I have no idea what it takes to make them react. Like, maybe it has to be heated, or it takes a long time to react or something. I have a feeling that, if I end up continuing to experiment, eventually I’ll figure it out. But yes, most likely it’s different between pure gold and impure gold.
Yup, this is a dissolution in aqua regia. Not a reaction, gold does bond with Cl in the reaction in solution as shown, in solution means as a liquid.........
HST, Gold does not REACT, dissolves> @krueger said:
MS70 will turn coppers purple.
Gold coin has copper in it.
Just a thought maybe the purple toned gold was que tipped rolled on with MS 70??
MS70 is a caustic solution with NaOH and a pH of 13 (as surfactant cleaning agent - i.e. detergent), unlike tincture of Iodine, completely unrelated in chemistry composed of X% of iodine in ethanol. Iodine in solution is a very weak base, probably no more than a pH of 6.5-ish. Tincture of iodine is used to kill bad stuff in water to make it potable or to clean wounds (hence antiseptic). Don't know why it would instantaneously react with metal. Maybe heating a Cu/Ag bearing coin and adding? Even so as Bill Jones noted, creates flaky stuff on the surface of the coin, not really reacting(?). Maybe reacting with surface gunk as does MS70 (see next).
HST, MS70 does not turn copper purple. Instead it reacts with surface material on the copper. You can show that by putting MS70 on red copper w/o surface gunk and with copper that has patina, patina'd coin turns blue/purple, red-patina-less copper no color change. Also the patina'd copper that does turn color does not last. The reaction creates a compound on the surface that has high volatility that over time goes away....................
@Mr_Spud said:
As for gold not being reactive with iodine, I keep finding references saying that gold does react with iodine. Like this reference
But I have no idea what it takes to make them react. Like, maybe it has to be heated, or it takes a long time to react or something. I have a feeling that, if I end up continuing to experiment, eventually I’ll figure it out. But yes, most likely it’s different between pure gold and impure gold.
Yup, this is a dissolution in aqua regia. Not a reaction, gold does bond with Cl in the reaction in solution as shown, in solution means as a liquid.........
No, not quite. "(s)" means "solid". That chemical reaction is what happens when you take (powdered) metallic gold and expose it to iodine gas (the little "(g)" means gas). Note that to get "iodine gas", you need to have it heated to above iodine's boiling point of 184 deg C. Wikipedia says you need a temperature of about 390 deg C to get a favourable reaction rate. That's considerably hotter than most household ovens can reach; you'd need to do it in a specialized furnace.
Gold iodide spontaneously decomposes in moist air or under strong light, back to elemental gold and iodine. So any "gold iodide" formed on a coin under such conditions would essentially spontaneously turn back into gold and iodine, under anything remotely resembling "normal" conditions.
So yes, while gold and iodine can react chemically, it is under circumstances so extreme that it's really really hard for your coin to encounter it, even deliberately. And it certainly won't happen when an iodine solution containing water is sitting on a gold coin at room temperature.
Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one. Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
@Sapyx said:
No, not quite. "(s)" means "solid". That chemical reaction is what happens when you take (powdered) metallic gold and expose it to iodine gas (the little "(g)" means gas). Note that to get "iodine gas", you need to have it heated to above iodine's boiling point of 184 deg C. Wikipedia says you need a temperature of about 390 deg C to get a favourable reaction rate. That's considerably hotter than most household ovens can reach; you'd need to do it in a specialized furnace.
Gold iodide spontaneously decomposes in moist air or under strong light, back to elemental gold and iodine. So any "gold iodide" formed on a coin under such conditions would essentially spontaneously turn back into gold and iodine, under anything remotely resembling "normal" conditions.
So yes, while gold and iodine can react chemically, it is under circumstances so extreme that it's really really hard for your coin to encounter it, even deliberately. And it certainly won't happen when an iodine solution containing water is sitting on a gold coin at room temperature.
I confess I did not see the (g) subscript. If it were in solution it would have been (aq). But it does not change the story, room T, iodine in ethanol, no reaction................
@lermish said:
I've heard of treating gold with iodine. I'm not sure if this is for AT or to cover other issues or both. I came across this coin and have never seen these kinds of purples on a coin other than AT on silver. I'm assuming it's iodine but would love some additional insight as to the uses and additional identification of iodine treated coins.
I have no idea what it really is but iodine sounds possible. I just don’t like the coin. Looks messed with. Pass
As long as collectors like something there is someone who will make sure they get what they like. I liked Cameo Pl Morgans and long ago one particular dealer (now dead) sold me a bunch of altered surface dollars. I didn't discover this until I tried to sell my coin collection for a down payment on a house! That experience turned me sour on coins but decades later I returned book smart and better educated. I only wish I had my younger eyes back.
@lermish said:
I've heard of treating gold with iodine. I'm not sure if this is for AT or to cover other issues or both. I came across this coin and have never seen these kinds of purples on a coin other than AT on silver. I'm assuming it's iodine but would love some additional insight as to the uses and additional identification of iodine treated coins.
I have no idea what it really is but iodine sounds possible. I just don’t like the coin. Looks messed with. Pass
.
I do not think that is iodine and I do not think the coin was artificially colored.
It looks like very old leather pouch (or similar) storage. I like the look of it.
Comments
I might put some on a copper cent from circulation and see what happens after I’m done with the gold bar. Like I’ll get a pre 1982 cent and dip it to turn it pink and then put a drop of iodine on it or something like that. Maybe on a silver round too after that. I also found 2 modern 1/10 oz bullion gold eagles in 2x2’s in my bullion box that I may or may not try after all of that, they are 91.67% Au, 3% Ag, 5.33% Cu. Still not identical to pre-33 gold, but not pure gold like the bar. I’m not willing to ruin a real pre-33 gold coin and might even not do the 1/10 oz eagles, it’s like sacrilege to me. Back when I did AT experiments to learn what AT looks like, I limited my experiments to pocket change. I ended up learning a lot and it helped me to be able to spot AT coins better even though I didn’t do experiments on real collectable coins.
Mr_Spud
Another one just popped up.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This was interesting to read. I had never heard of treating gold with iodine. Might experiment myself with a low premium pre-33 once I get back home for the summer.
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
>
Welcome to Gold Doctoring 101.😂
Invalid. of course. The alloy is different sand the surface is different so the iodine stain should look different. Besides, it should dip off but I cannot be sure. l
So, after another hour and a half the tincture of iodine completely dried and was totally invisible (5th image below), so I put 2 more new drops of tincture of iodine on it (sixth image below).
I also remembered that I had some pure copper foil. So I cut off a square of it and cleaned both sides with a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser (a very fine abrasive pad made out of melamine, it makes microscopic scratches but you can’t see them) and put 4 drops of tincture of iodine % on it. I used the Magic Eraser to remove the surface toning off the copper to make it more reactive. The tincture of iodine immediately turned cloudy and looks like this (2nd picture below):
Mr_Spud
As for gold not being reactive with iodine, I keep finding references saying that gold does react with iodine. Like this reference
But I have no idea what it takes to make them react. Like, maybe it has to be heated, or it takes a long time to react or something. I have a feeling that, if I end up continuing to experiment, eventually I’ll figure it out. But yes, most likely it’s different between pure gold and impure gold.
Mr_Spud
My experiment isn’t going that great so far. I took two ratty double eagles and pretty much doused one side in iodine, then I went grocery shopping. A couple hours later, the iodine had dried on the saint but it was still pooled on the face of the lib. I rinsed them off with hot water and this is what’s left. The lib has some waxy green residue left behind.
The saint sort of has a reddish tinge now but definitely not the deep red/purple we see on the op coin. If anyone has suggestions of what to try on the next batch, feel free to chime in.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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What do you guys think of this half eagle? Any cause for concern?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Some things to point out here.
First, not all "iodine solutions" are the same. The one in the old thread from 2018 is 10% iodine, with glycerin and other chemicals to keep it dissolved (iodine does not dissolve well at all in regular water, you need to use either another solvent or a bunch of stabilizing chemicals; medicinal iodine obviously can't use solvents that are toxic or carcinogenic). The iodine bottle in this thread is only 2% iodine and does not mention which other chemicals might be present; probably ethanol, as that's commonly used in medicinal iodine.
Second, from what I can tell, the iodine isn't actually reacting with anything on a coin, or at least, it doesn't react with the gold at all and any reaction between the iodine and the copper in the gold alloy is not contributing to the artificial toning effect. The iodine is simply acting as a "paint", sitting on the surface and providing a "thin layer" from which the toning colouration derives. You could achieve much the same effect with a thin layer of oil, though oil of course is a liquid and leaves the coin feeling sticky, while the iodine is solid at room temperature. Though I'd think the glycerin in the 2018 formula would also make the coin's surface "sticky".
This is why there are reports of iodine toning appearing to "lift off the coin" under magnification. Gold is notoriously not-sticky, and a thin layer can easily peel away once it dries out.
As it is caused by a foreign substance sitting on the coin, "iodine toning" can be removed by solvent with no harm done to the coin, just like paint or varnish can be removed by solvent. Ethanol (alcohol) is a very good solvent for iodine, as noted above.
A thin layer of iodine is also likely to simply disappear all by itself over time (assuming it's pure iodine and contaminated with other stuff). Iodine, for a solid, is quite volatile and slowly sublimates (turns straight from a solid to a gas, without melting) at room temperature in open air. So, unlike normal toning which gets thicker and more colourful with age, iodine toning should slowly get thinner until it disappears entirely. Mild heat can greatly accelerate the rate of sublimation of iodine. This is also the reason why iodine toning can easily be detected by a gas chromatograph (which the TPGs have access to). Or the human nose.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
What is scary is that many people reading this must know the next steps. Is it heat, more concentration, or the addition of another chemical. I'd like to know too but I think this discussion should be closed.
A little more than an hour since the last pictures were taken, now the gold bar looks a bit hazy in the fields where the tincture of iodine has dried, still red near the raised letters where it’s still a bit wet (7th picture below)
And the tincture of iodine is opaque pink on the copper foil (3rd picture below)
Mr_Spud
If you mean so I don’t accidentally end up teaching wannabe coin doctors, then ok, I can stop posting the results step by step. I might end up just posting the finished product though, if/when I end up making a gold bar or coin look like dirty old gold or at least turn it red so that we can all see an example of gold that’s for sure artifically toned with iodine. Like I did and still do with the pictures I took while doing my old pocket change AT experiments. I don’t explain how I made them, but went through a learning curve with different processes before coming up with colorful examples I use to educate. Heres a few examples
Mr_Spud
>
Yeah, this is what really interests me. Not the actual step by step as much, but the end result so that I can associate a particular ‘look’ with a particular process (ie. Iodine, etc.)
Found this article on jewelry (gold) and iodine. Probably can search and find more similar information. Mentions it as a protectant, color and design creation stuff. Article does make some references on what to do (need to mix it up and quality iodine) near the end.
https://www.jewelrycarats.com/iodine-on-gold-jewelry/
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Thanks for the education and keep trying because IMO, those are all fails! There is a difference in what is going on here and WHAT MAY Result if the "right" members post. I learned that iodine reacts with gold and saw the chemical equation in this thread. Additionally, the best way to detect fakes is to make them! Therefore, on one hand I'm enjoying your experiments that I can't do myself. On the other, a coin doctor may wish to brag and post the exact way to tone coins. I've read much of it from highly sugared up urine, old motor oil, potatoes, and even dirty, old, hot MS-70. I'd love to know how to tone coins that are passed by a TPGS but I know it would be hard to resist the "Darkside."
A collector friend of mine who is a Male nurse uses betadine anapestic which contains iodine
turns silver light purple or pinkish. amateur experimenter coin doctor. easy to tell once you see one and know what was done. have seen a some on eBay.
Er,
I suggested this much earlier in the thread.......... No Cu, no Ag. Gold is a noble metal, that means it does not bond or react with other elements in its pure form. Nobility means something. HST you might dissolve it, but it won't bond. Need more chemically active elements like Cu and Ag...........
Best, SH
Yup, this is a dissolution in aqua regia. Not a reaction, gold does bond with Cl in the reaction in solution as shown, in solution means as a liquid.........
HST, Gold does not REACT, dissolves> @krueger said:
MS70 is a caustic solution with NaOH and a pH of 13 (as surfactant cleaning agent - i.e. detergent), unlike tincture of Iodine, completely unrelated in chemistry composed of X% of iodine in ethanol. Iodine in solution is a very weak base, probably no more than a pH of 6.5-ish. Tincture of iodine is used to kill bad stuff in water to make it potable or to clean wounds (hence antiseptic). Don't know why it would instantaneously react with metal. Maybe heating a Cu/Ag bearing coin and adding? Even so as Bill Jones noted, creates flaky stuff on the surface of the coin, not really reacting(?). Maybe reacting with surface gunk as does MS70 (see next).
HST, MS70 does not turn copper purple. Instead it reacts with surface material on the copper. You can show that by putting MS70 on red copper w/o surface gunk and with copper that has patina, patina'd coin turns blue/purple, red-patina-less copper no color change. Also the patina'd copper that does turn color does not last. The reaction creates a compound on the surface that has high volatility that over time goes away....................
No, not quite. "(s)" means "solid". That chemical reaction is what happens when you take (powdered) metallic gold and expose it to iodine gas (the little "(g)" means gas). Note that to get "iodine gas", you need to have it heated to above iodine's boiling point of 184 deg C. Wikipedia says you need a temperature of about 390 deg C to get a favourable reaction rate. That's considerably hotter than most household ovens can reach; you'd need to do it in a specialized furnace.
Gold iodide spontaneously decomposes in moist air or under strong light, back to elemental gold and iodine. So any "gold iodide" formed on a coin under such conditions would essentially spontaneously turn back into gold and iodine, under anything remotely resembling "normal" conditions.
So yes, while gold and iodine can react chemically, it is under circumstances so extreme that it's really really hard for your coin to encounter it, even deliberately. And it certainly won't happen when an iodine solution containing water is sitting on a gold coin at room temperature.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
I confess I did not see the (g) subscript. If it were in solution it would have been (aq). But it does not change the story, room T, iodine in ethanol, no reaction................
I have no idea what it really is but iodine sounds possible. I just don’t like the coin. Looks messed with. Pass
As long as collectors like something there is someone who will make sure they get what they like. I liked Cameo Pl Morgans and long ago one particular dealer (now dead) sold me a bunch of altered surface dollars. I didn't discover this until I tried to sell my coin collection for a down payment on a house! That experience turned me sour on coins but decades later I returned book smart and better educated. I only wish I had my younger eyes back.
.
I do not think that is iodine and I do not think the coin was artificially colored.
It looks like very old leather pouch (or similar) storage. I like the look of it.
.