It’s finally operational.
bidask
Posts: 14,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
1
Comments
JD and Barry are great guys and perfectly capable, but the market's obsession with grading is getting really, really old.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
On a quick look, seems that it is going to be a service for U.S. Coins.
Will include world coins as well
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I could see myself submitting select world coinage.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Seems like overkill
Why is that ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Too many of them out there. While I can see the draw to it, however.
'approvers' of graded world coins I can think only of WINGS.
US coins I agree with you.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
If you not mined me asking, what does PQapproved consider to be attractive toning? Do they happen to have a guide or set of rules which they follow so they can have a consistent standard?
I mean, I guess there’s going to be a vacuum to some extent with CAC heading into the slabbing business. They’d have their own market generally if they focused on World stuff.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Ah, forgot I was in the dark side. I was thinking U.S. Wings hasn’t been much of a draw. I hope the this does a bit better.
Interesting. Not sure i'd be a player in the near future, but will consider if I'm ever liquidating and they manage to gain recognition in the slabbed world coin market.
8 Reales Madness Collection
meh...
karlgoetzmedals.com
secessionistmedals.com
We don’t need the “stickerizarion” of the world coin market. Nice pieces already sell for premium so I’m not clear what problem they are trying to solve?
Latin American Collection
The problem is how to extract more money from collector budgets.
Luckily most world coin collectors are smart enough to push back, at least until the auction companies get onboard.
I’m very open to have JD review some of my prized world coins !
Can’t hurt
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
When you see "MS62" common late date Cap & Rays where you just shake your head and curse to yourself (the latter part perhaps dependent on internal anger issues)... a stricter service potentially serves a purpose aside from just another way to jack money from ppl.
Of course, when THOSE standards start slipping as well, what happens??? Sticker over the sticker over the label?? At that point, perhaps just better to invest in cases of Goo-Gone (which is excellent on coin tape residue, btw).
Matters naught, AI coin grading will end all of this eventually... but then the robots will seize all our coins at laserpoint so
I said “most.”
There are exceptionally few individuals, if any at all, whom I would consider experienced, consistent, and knowledgeable enough in the grading of vintage world coins to provide a reliable stickering service - and the present employees of this company do not fall into that group.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Can you expand the on this thought please
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Dannreuther carries weight imo
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I can try, but it’s mostly based on observation. I’ve worked in most corners of the field of world coins at this point - for a dealer, as a dealer, as a collector, for auction houses, and as a grader - and I’m familiar with many of those at the highest levels of the field. I think I can say that I’ve essentially seen the level of talent that’s out there - I’ve seen the expertise that’s there as well as the mistakes that are frequently made. I also am cognizant of my own weaknesses, because I’ve worked alongside people who are more skilled than I.
The difficulty with a stickering service for world coins is that it specifically requires: 1) expertise in the physical characteristics of coins, 2) a deep understanding of the Sheldon scale and consistent, reliable grading ability, and 3) wide-ranging knowledge of the physical characteristics associated with different methods of production and different mints around the world and over the last 1000+ years.
The first two categories are difficult enough - to have a deep enough understanding of the Sheldon scale and to be consistent enough to qualify as a “useful stickererer” in my view you need to be on par with a top-tier “finalizer” or “senior grader” at a grading service. Think about how few people are or would be respected as stickerers of US coins, which is a far more standardized and widely learned area. To qualify, you would essentially need to have worked that senior grading role - it’s a position that typically requires years of experience in a grading room to reach, and that’s after presumably having acquired an appropriate amount of experience to be initially hired.
The third category - knowledge of vintage world coins in all their breadth - narrows the field tremendously. While there are a number of people who are competent US graders, that experience does not directly transfer over to world coins. If a US grader tries to grade world coins, they will make mistakes, because they just aren’t familiar enough with the material. As an ex-vintage world grader, if I tried to grade modern world (1970-present) I would make mistakes too, because I’m not familiar enough with that material either. It’s not as easy a transition as some might think. Time spent in the field of numismatics also has very little relation to grading ability - there are many dealers who have been in the business for 50 years and who have less knowledge of grading and authentication than someone who has spent 2 years in a grading role at a TPG. And that’s fine - different jobs require different areas of specialization.
There is a lot of knowledge out there in the dealer/collector sphere, but the problem is that it is typically specialized in particular areas and also typically not developed well enough in terms of grading. In order to sticker world coins, you would need to be specialized in the physical characteristics of coins, not just in the historical aspects of coins or in attribution or in one specific country. From what I’ve seen, that is just not an area that is understood well enough outside of a small handful of people, and others are often overconfident in their abilities. In the end, there are 2-5 people in the history of world coin grading whom I would think could work as reliable stickerers (I won’t name them). They are all either employed in senior vintage world coin grading roles or have retired from that role. JD carries weight in the numismatic world, but not as a vintage world grader, and not to existing vintage world graders in that regard.
Also, frankly, why can’t people just buy the coins that they like? It’s a little odd to require validation from others. It’s your collection, not theirs.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Thank you
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I anticipate submitting my World coins. Hopefully they will consider Ancient and Medieval as well.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
. . . why would anyone submit ancient or medieval coins to this company, even if they did sticker those? They are very much not specialists in grading those areas. The company that JD worked for (PCGS) doesn’t even grade ancients.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I dunno he has been around along time
Who’s to say he has not learned a ton?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Same problem as described above. If he’s never actively been involved in grading ancients, then regardless of how much expertise he might have in terms of attribution, authenticity, or whatever else, his opinion doesn’t hold water in terms of grading. Presumably if you’re stickering ancients, you’re stickering NGC-graded ancients. NGC devised the scale that they use to grade ancients, and it would be silly for someone who has not worked in the NGC ancients department to judge them against their own scale.
As far as medieval coins, I don’t know how much JD has been involved with grading that material at PCGS, but I would suspect little or not at all. That material is difficult and I have never heard of JD being closely associated with the grading of world coins in general. Perhaps he may have been involved in grading of the Tyrant material, but I’m not sure. “Who’s to say he has not learned a ton?” is not a very convincing reason to pay money for an opinion. Additionally, PCGS’s grading of medieval material is less developed than NGC’s in a general sense, and I would hesitate to choose anyone there as a reliable overarching stickerer of that material. If we’re talking purely medieval material, my list shrinks to maybe 4 people maximum, and really probably just 2.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
The whole reason why CAC is a respected company and other stickering companies aren’t (like WINGS) is that it was founded by someone who was very well established as a grader of US coins over many years. But if John Albanese started holdering vintage Chinese coins all of a sudden, it would (or should, I am probably overestimating people) mean very little to the market, and I would stay the hell away from those coins.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I don't know if they will review Ancient and Medieval coins. If they do its my choice. To each their own.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
I guess some will buy into anything with a shiny logo and a famous name. To each their own indeed.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I would not assume that they will be stickering all countries from all eras. More likely, they know their limitations and will start with only the areas of the market in which they think they're completely capable.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think the number is zero if you assume that the grader has to be supremely capable in all areas. And the number is much higher if the person can grade only the coins he’s comfortable grading, and pass the buck to other members of the grading team when he’s not.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I’d like to think I can tell what’s PQ for the series I’m collecting and can def tell what is attractive toning or if the coin has spots or not. We’ve seen this before when dealers put PQ notes on their offerings, I’ve always though I would be the one who decides that and if the coin makes me want to part with my cash or not. If it makes me go Wow under a loupe and WOW at arms length then it’s a purchase candidate. I don’t think a service sticker will influence me or other hard core numismatists much at all. Feels pretty gimmicky, but the hobby has a lot of that going on so what else is new.
nowadays, if someone doesn't know much about a series, it's easy to look up comparable coins and see what's good for the grade, but I don't think they'll go there because they'll sticker what they think are good looking coins, which will have its own biases for better or worse
I do not own a slabbed coin with any extra sticker. I only have bought 4 world slabbed coins, all the coins I have bought them raw and some end up being sent to be graded to PCGS.
I can see why these can help raise the price paid for one with this, just saw a U.S. coin for comparison a 1859 1C Indian Head Proof 64, At PCGS the price guide $2,700 with CAC because exceeds their standards on a site they ask $7,500 a $4,800 difference. If one compare the same coin without that sticker, you can find a much better coin and a better price. My 2ct.
I was in touch with JD regards this thread and he said no ancients or medieval coins will be stickered
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
bidask, thank you for checking.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
I'm still waiting for the first company to come up with a micro-dot sticker that can be applied to another larger sticker.
We need stickers on stickers, right?
Sigh...
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Not to fear. I found some customizable stickers in about the right size, so you can still sticker your ancients and medieval coins to your heart’s content.
https://www.sheetlabels.com/labels/SL595?measureunit=fractions&utm_source=google&device=m&utm_campaign=PMax&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD9-Rfyy2s-N89kbWBuboWNGniWVo&gclid=CjwKCAjwtqmwBhBVEiwAL-WAYeJz2uMlSiAkDzYIdXEqvq8TFQP_C88gqXzZ6sMBjD8vrK9nIXj0JBoCUOYQAvD_BwE
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I will be giving John some coins at the upcoming CSNS for his review with the hopes he stickers them !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Will you try coins from your collection or from your inventory? Is the goal to increase the value of the coins, or to figure out which coins are worth keeping?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Coins from my collection mostly.
I think having a sticker from a person like John Dannreuther being novel at this time should help the value.
And to figure out which coins to keep,
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
What's new? I thought this has been running for a while now?
Not for world coins
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I mean this with all due respect - but what happens to these “one man” dependent companies when the single-opinion-giver eventually passes on from this world?
Even at CAC everyone seems to think that only JA is making the final decision on things (at least for the big deal coins). This can’t be a serious model for long term sustainability of these businesses.
Neither Dannreuther nor JA are immortal - and neither is particularly young.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
It's a good question. The way I look at it, no grader or grading authority is perfect, and they don't need to be. All they need to be is the best available option. So as long as a TPG can maintain that status, or something very close to that, they're viable. With or without JA or JD or whoever else you may consider the best in the biz at this point in time.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I hope you give your own experience and opinions more stock than is suggested in order to decide which coins to keep vs sell. I’m sure there are other factors but you have a great eye and should give yourself credit for that.
I don’t think these stickers will add value personally.
Latin American Collection
The vast majority of the world coin market doesn't demand sub-grade granularity. Buyers of coins I collect are still adjusting to the TPG grades to begin with and aren't quite at the point where they'd be reacting to a greater level of detail than the grade itself, beyond using their own taste. Many countries just don't have the scale required at the high end (# of coins and number of collectors) for something like this to make business sense.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
I also attribute the success of CAC to their market making role. That's the primary difference or at least the other primary difference I see between CAC and WINGS.
No one needs WINGS or this new service to tell them which coin they like more. It has no relevance to the set registry which matters to a few (mostly) US collectors. They don't provide any guarantee (authenticity or grade).
If this service has any impact at all, it's more likely to be in an area widely collected by US collectors, such as British.