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Is CACG the same as a coin with a Green Bean?
Leeroybrown
Posts: 429 ✭✭✭✭✭
In visiting my local coin shop recently, we got to talking about CACG vs. a slabbed coin w/ a CAC sticker and it was stated by all of the dealers in the room that CACG IS BRINGING THE SAME PREMIUMS AS A SLAB COIN WITH A STICKER. IT WAS ALSO STATED, AND REAFFIRMED THAT THESE TWO ARE INTERCHANGEABLE… MEANING, ONE IS THE SAME AS THE OTHER AND VICE VERSA.
My questions to the group is this: is that the same understanding that you have regarding the comparison between a slab coin with a CAC sticker versus CACG? Are they carrying the same premiums in the marketplace? And if there are differences… What would those be?
Look forward to answers on this…
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Yes, sort of. If you have a P or N with a green bean, and unless the coin has turned in the holder since the bean was applied, those coins will cross into a CACG holder at that whole grade, possibly higher but never lower. So for the most part a P or N holder with a green bean is considered equal to the same whole grade CACG coin.
But the marketplace is fickle when it comes to values and premiums. Often at auction the P with a bean will sell higher than an N with a bean, not enough data to really say but so far the CACG coin is on par with the P/CAC combo. This all speaking in general terms and then you have to add in the plus and details coins, which are much tougher to equate.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
For whole number grades, PCGS & NGC holdered coins that are CAC Green stickered are considered to be equal to CACG coins at the whole number grade. If an NGC/CAC piece seems to be valued lower, it can be crossed at the whole number grade into a CACG holder. Same with PCGS of course.
There are hundreds of variables. One being PCGS & NGC Green beans could upgrade to + or a higher grade but cannot be downgraded. Once the coin is in a CACG holder, you have your answer.
And only if they are legacy coins
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
P CAC and N CAC are bringing the same premiums as CACG. There has been talk though that N CAC and P CAC have been verified by two services and they are both in agreement on the grade so they could be more valuable to a person who wants to have their coin approved by two leading coin grading companies.
CACG has been very tough on their grading and in my opinion are well worth the premium they carry. As far as P CAC being preferred over N CAC and bringing more of a premium, I think more people want their coins in P holders and registry sets play a big role. Personally, I value N CAC coins the same and am happy to buy them at a discount if I can. As always, the coin inside the holder is what trumps everything in the end. Caveat emptor.
I’ve also heard that CACG is not obligated to cross any and all P and N CAC coins. They can decline to cross them but the majority will certainly cross.
I personally haven't seen much premium associated with CACG coins. At least not comparable to P CAC and N CAC coins. The L (legacy) means nothing as far as I am concerned. They can bump a coin two grades and keep the L.
Would be curious to see more opinions on observations in the current marketplace.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
Really? As Logan Roy would say….
And as a bourse room dealer - Absolutely would not value CACG less than stickered lol.
The CDN values both the same. So do I. As far as some other player BS (stickered non CACG material) worth more I reject it. The L thing - somebody BS try bump up grade - laughed like crazy at that.
I like the CACG coins, they fit nicely in my Teletrade storage boxes. Glad I kept them.
I’ve also heard that CACG is not obligated to cross any and all P and N CAC coins. They can decline to cross them but the majority will certainly cross.
I hadn’t heard this, I assumed but perhaps incorrectly that these were all eligible for CACG (Legacy) holders?
Flat no.
CAC and CACG are separate operations albeit under the same umbrella.
It's certainly more _likely _that a PCGS/NGC coin with a green CAC sticker will cross to CACG at the same grade, but it is not guaranteed.
From observation, CACG seems to be much stricter on some things than PCGS/NGC+CAC was. For example color. Once they crack it out of the PCGS/NGC slab and can view it in hand, sometimes those standards have led to shocking results.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@Leeroybrown I have wondered the same thing. I wondered if the green bean on their label was the same as a sticker on NGC and PCGS, i.e. the coin is what they call an "A" coin. Thanks for asking.
I do have another question. Will CACG holder a coin that's for example a 65, but a "B" or "C" coin?
According to CAC, they sticker coins they believe to be of both A and B quality for the grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thank you. What do they do with "C" coins? Holder them at a lower grade or not holder them at all?
I was responding to a comment that I thought was stating CAC only stickered A quality coins.
Supposedly, if CACG thinks a coin is of C quality, they will grade it one point lower, but with a +. So, for example, a coin they see as a 65C will be graded 64+.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A CACG coin with an L was either a P or N coin with a sticker and for the most part the coin automatically crossed from the P or N holder into a CACG holder. A lot of folks are assuming that it’s mostly N coins with a sticker that are being crossed. Nobody besides JA and a few others know if this is the case.
A CACG coin without an L was graded by CACG. CACG is a grading company with its own unique standards and they “appear” to be more conservative than P or N.
I don’t think the CACG market is mature enough for us to draw any conclusions with valuations comparing P or N coins with a sticker to CACG L or non L coins.
Well this is a fascinating thread. It feels like we are all pawns in the grading game of life! Anyway, I have noticed that getting a sticker on a pcgs coin is harder now then before at least for me. Maybe i'm slipping on my assessments..
Numbers, Letters, green stickers, gold stickers. Good grief.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
They missed a golden opportunity to create minus grades. Then we could argue over whether a 65- is better/worse/equal to a 64+. Oh, the threads that could have been...
No, the coins are all different! Sheesh!
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
I just had 20 stickered coins cross to CACG at grade. Had a + cross as a + which isn’t guaranteed as CAC doesn’t recognize the +.
I’ve read that there are cases where CACG can’t cross, but these seem to be rare. When that happens each case appears to be handled fairly with the submitter. We can guess that there are color changes to copper that cannot be crossed, for instance.
But wait! You've said that CACG coins are not as prevalent on Ebay as PCGS or NGC so why do you value CACG so highly? We await your bourse infused opinion.
Also, what will you do if the tire kickers don't want your CACG coins?
I would posit that it is MUCH more likely and nearly a certainty. I have heard of two anecdotal stories where CACG did not feel comfortable crossing a coin, talked with JA, and after JA agreed he offered to make the submitter whole (either buy the coin or grading/stickering/price guide difference reimbursement).
Potentially a stronger anecdote; I submitted a stickered chopmarked T$ to cross. However, CACG has said that they will not assign numerical grades to submitted raw, chopped T$s. Yet this coin still crossed (the first and so far only numerically graded CACG chopmarked T$).
I have a question that I do not know the answer to similarly related.
If I send a coin to CAC in PCGS holder I think is solid for the grade A or B to get a green cac sticker and it comes back non CAC, my assumption is this is considered a below B coin per CAC. If this assumption is correct and I send the coin to CACG and it straight crosses from the PCGS 65 to CACG 65 that now means CACG considered the coin an A or B, correct? Is there ever a point the services work together?
Why would you do that? You just took a bunch of risk for no gain and lost a segment of the market (registry) on resale.
He didn’t say he cracked them out of their holders - what was the “bunch of risk”?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
“Is CACG the same as a coin with a Green Bean?”
Answer to the OP’s question:
CACG is not the same to someone building a PCGS Registry Set….
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Good questions. Unfortunately, I cannot answer them.
Notwithstanding, IF you are in this situation, and have failed-to-sticker coins that you want try to cross at CACG, now is the time. They are running a crossover special until the end of May. Coins that fail to cross cost $10, instead of the full grade fee.
All but one were NGC, not much risk IMO. Some needed to be reholdered anyway. One was PCGS, it was a successful experiment - it was the +.
Lots of financial risk putting serious money into collectibles or similar hobbies, the incremental risk here is insignificant. The coin endures regardless of plastic or stickers.
I agree this is the case for currently holdered coins.
However, once one cracks a PCGS/NGC coin with a sticker, it seems to me like all bets are off.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
That answered my question. Thank you.
Yes, agreed, just like any TPGs grade guarantee, it must be in the holder.
Correct. From what I have heard, one should not expect the same grade from CAC and CACG on a raw coin.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
Not to me. Though I acknowledge the market seems to view them as similar quality, I personally have a strong preference for PCGS/CAC over CACG. This is because I place a high value on building my PCGS registry sets, prefer the aesthetics of the PCGS holder, and also place some value on uniformity of presentation of my collection.
I view CACG similarly to NGC/CAC, i.e., I better really love the coin to buy it and go through the hassle and risk of trying to cross and sticker or re-sticker.
If your "Not CAC" PCGS 65 does cross at CACG to 65 then CACG considered it a "B" coin. If it upgraded to 65+ at CACG then it was an "A" coin. The "B" coin possibility on a PCGS 65 "Not CAC" piece being more likely than a 65+ of course.
These scenarios have been discussed ad nauseum but I will add one more comment. It's often been postulated that a PCGS or NGC "C" coin (such as the PCGS 65 "Not CAC" noted above) would downgrade to a CACG 64+. That does not often seem to be the case. Many of these "C" coins were in fact problem pieces placed in Details holders at CACG or downgraded a full point or more.
John Butler used the example that some "C" coins could also be D, E or F pieces. That makes perfect sense to me and I really appreciated him pointing this out. A true "C" coin could downgrade to + at the next lower grade, a "D" down a full point, an "E" down more than a full point and an "F" into a Details holder. His was the best explanation of why CACG + grades are not as common as some thought they might have been.
While John Butler apparently made mention of D, E and F coins, I haven’t heard John Albanese discuss them in that way. I’ve always taken his comments to indicate that there’s a difference between a “C” (low end for the grade) coin and an overgraded and/or problem coin. And that CAC declines to sticker coins in both of those categories.
For its part, CACG will presumably grade a 65C coin 64+, give details-grades for problem coins and give lower straight grades to coins they feel are over-graded, but straight-grade worthy.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Exactly. John Butler's comments were an eye-opener for me. You could read his exasperation between the lines. The question then was why aren't there more + grades, particularly on C coins. He said because a lot of them were D, E & F.
I love it when an expert grader can state the facts. So........
A true 65C coin would be a 64+. Lower straight grades on a 65 could be a D = 64, E = 63+ or, though unlikely, even lower. An F = Details of course.
The example on CAC Forums of 66 Saints downgrading to 64+ was a perfect example.
Would a more accurate statement be:
A true "C" coin could downgrade to + at the next lower grade, a "D" down a full point or more than a full point, an "E" into a Details holder and a "F" body bagged.
Yes, agreed. Some coins should not be holdered, those would be the "F" coins.
THe risk was shipping the coins as was illustrated with the recent loss of a package by a forum member.
I’m going to stick with what I’ve heard since CAC’s inception - A,B and C quality for the assigned grade and either problem coin or lower than the assigned grade for sub-C quality pieces.
As such, the example of MS66 Saints grading 64+ at CACG isn’t an example of CAC C-quality coins downgrading. But rather, those coins weren’t C coins in the eyes of CAC - they were overgraded.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And I agree here too. The misinterpretation that I, and apparently many others, made was assuming A, B & C roughly corresponded to 1/3 of the coins at each point. John flatly stated that is not even close to the actual distribution. The C coins were (are) far more than 1/3 of the total and the A coins less.
Of note is many paying up for a green bean as if it were an A coin. CACG's grading thus far has shown that to not be the case. The green bean represents a problem-free, solid for the grade coin B coin in most instances.
I think CAC/CACG's definition evolved over the years. What was a initially defined as a C coin later became a lower grade + coin.
Thanks guys
I guess what I’m trying to decide is if the coin straight crossed but did not get a sticker should it be bothersome that I had to spend extra money to get it into the holder vs the first pass where I would have just preferred to get a sticker since I like PCGS slabs.
Either way thanks.
I believe the C idea was a way to avoid disparaging the TPG. The comment that was also made was that a CAC no pass did not mean that the coin was over graded. What we may find out is that the no pass coins are MOSTLY over graded or should be no grade/details, according to CACG. I have some no pass coins that I like. I may try to cross them with a minimum grade stipulation, as an experiment.
This is incorrect. All previously CAC stickered coins are GUARANTEED to cross at the same whole grade or higher at CACG.
I think that guarantee only applies to coins that were stickered before the cutoff date. I’ll have to look it up but I think it is somewhere between May and June 2023.
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
If the coins were stickered before the cutoff date, aren't they by definition, "Legacy coins"?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, that's my point.
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
The cutoff date for Legacy crossovers is June 5, 2023. Any coin stickered after that date won’t be guaranteed to receive the same grade on the PCGS or NGC slab.
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Thanks all for the clarifications.
@CascadeChris is the below statement you posted still true?
And are there "C" coins in CACG slabs that represent the lower tier of the grade?