Any truth to the rumor that PCGS is planning on discontinuing straight grades on Toned ASE’s?

2windy2fish

I am curious if anyone has formal knowledge of this or if it’s heresay..

lilolme

Don't know anything about pcgs but that is what cacg has stated as policy if I recall correctly from reading previously.

EDIT:
Found the cacg statement -
This is an announcement regarding toned Silver Eagles. CAC Grading will be calling all Silver Eagles with toning Questionable toning or Questionable Color. If you would like to discuss this decision, please contact our office.
Thanks,
John Butler

PerryHall

@2windy2fish said:
I am curious if anyone has formal knowledge of this or if it’s heresay..

Did you mean "hearsay" or "heresy"? It might be both.

conrad99

Hey I know of a barn door which needed locking a couple of decades ago...

mattniss

I'm fairly certain this is a CACG policy, not sure I've heard anything about our hosts doing this (or ATS, for that matter).

Cougar1978

Heard nothing on that. Would not buy a toned ASE anyway. Yuck.

logger7

Then collectors would go to ATS. Why would they make a business decision that doesn't advantage them?

bsshog40

I have to say that I've seen seen some extreme toning on SAE's. A lot of them look questionable to me also. This is one I've had since 2013. I actually found it 2, 3,4 yrs ago with a couple other things that I had stashed away. It had toned during those years. I actually like it.

jayPem

I like toned ase personally.. the only modern things I have around.
Makes no difference to me who does or doesn't grade them... though I did have a nice stash of pci toners at one point.
Mostly just have a bunch from my lcs and some local show dealers who sell them at the bullion price...

U1chicago

This is the first I'm hearing of it. CACG did have an announcement about this and NGC has mainly gone the route of calling toned ASEs AT (although there is no policy that I'm aware of and there are some straight graded examples that I have seen over the years).

I was initially skeptical of toned ASEs but lately I have grown to like them. The PCI toned examples have a reasonable explanation and general market acceptance. Some others are murkier but can still be super attractive.

U1chicago

And since no one has posted a PCGS graded example, here is one:

coinsarefun

I need to talk to them tomorrow as if this is really happening I’ll never be able to finish my toned proof eagle collection in the registry.

robec

@U1chicago said:
And since no one has posted a PCGS graded example, here is one:

A few more.

MsMorrisine

we have respectable people here who have had ase tone on them

broad brush painting on toned coins

braddick

There have been many pretty toned Silver Eagles in PCGS slabs.

I wonder if the market for them would increase in value or decrease if PCGS ever decided to stop grading them?

Jacques_Loungecoque

I remember one particular year at FUN, probably around 2004-2005. There was one doctor, uhhh, I mean “dealer,” who had a big ole table with dozens and dozens of crazy colored slabbed ASEs. Tons of them. So, so, so many that it defied belief he accumulated them through normal business or natural toning. Many of them were previous year ASEs. No freaking way all that happened in a year.

The saddest part is that people were running around the show bragging about their purchases and showing them off. When a coin was sold and a spot cleared on the table it was quickly replaced with another “monster toner.” I heard numbers from $300 to $1,000 - EACH!!! This whole subject has been suspect for decades and I could never figure out for the life of me why TPGs allowed it to proliferate?

Bochiman

Has anyone asked PCGS yet?
@HeatherBoyd

tcollects

I always thought the reason was that the guarantee only covers the regular non-toned price, which is basically a few bucks over silver value, so who cares that it might be AT?

johnny9434

Would buy the coin and not the sticker help?

U1chicago

@braddick said:
There have been many pretty toned Silver Eagles in PCGS slabs.

I wonder if the market for them would increase in value or decrease if PCGS ever decided to stop grading them?

I was wondering that too.
I would think it would increase since the supply couldn’t go up any longer. But the demand could drop if people think a decision like that speaks to the (lack of) validity of the color.

davewesen

one of my favorites

erscolo

Toned coins are not my thing, and that includes American Silver Eagles. I own a 2009, 2016, 2019, 2020, both 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2024 in MS70, all tone and spot free. Your opinion will vary. Unblemished silver is a beautiful thing.

JeffersonFrog

I don't collect ASEs. I have accumulated a few. 30 years in a plastic snap-tite with cardboard insert that sat in the nether regions of the coin drawer. Not all toning is from the medical community.

jmlanzaf

@JeffersonFrog said:
I don't collect ASEs. I have accumulated a few. 30 years in a plastic snap-tite with cardboard insert that sat in the nether regions of the coin drawer. Not all toning is from the medical community.

It's equivalent. Low grade, high sulfur cardboard. 50/50 chance it grades AT or QT.

coastaljerseyguy

@JeffersonFrog said:
I don't collect ASEs. I have accumulated a few. 30 years in a plastic snap-tite with cardboard insert that sat in the nether regions of the coin drawer. Not all toning is from the medical community.

If that ASE acquired that rim toning over 34 years it should be NT. Also not wildly multi-colored all over the coin surface. Although still bullion, I like it and would buy over an all white ASE with the slightest premium.

TrickleCharge

@JeffersonFrog said:
I don't collect ASEs. I have accumulated a few. 30 years in a plastic snap-tite with cardboard insert that sat in the nether regions of the coin drawer. Not all toning is from the medical community.

I would say that is acceptable toning, but if PCGS ends up following the same toning ban policy at CACG then it's going to be 100% Questionable Toning and getting a details grade without a second glance.

RYK

Now ya tell me

Smudge

They are just bullion. I have never been a fan of certified bullion.

jayPem

Yup.
Mine are tossed in a jam jar and get more beat up everytime I dump them out... but I grab em when I see em 🤑

1madman

@braddick said:
There have been many pretty toned Silver Eagles in PCGS slabs.

I wonder if the market for them would increase in value or decrease if PCGS ever decided to stop grading them?

They would drop precipitately. Remember the thread a couple months ago about pcgs no longer recognizing some die variety on a Mercury dime. The coin became worthless because it no longer fit in a registry set, and carried no prestige. Same thing here. PCGS would want nothing to do with them, and I think they’d become widgets quick.

OwenSeymour

Like most rumors in coins, that’s false. Zero chance that’s happening

jmlanzaf

@TrickleCharge said:

@JeffersonFrog said:
I don't collect ASEs. I have accumulated a few. 30 years in a plastic snap-tite with cardboard insert that sat in the nether regions of the coin drawer. Not all toning is from the medical community.

I would say that is acceptable toning, but if PCGS ends up following the same toning ban policy at CACG then it's going to be 100% Questionable Toning and getting a details grade without a second glance.

It's already QT half the time. I know a dealer who had a bunch like that from the same cheap c a cardboard holders. He sent them in to PCGS, most of them got QT. A few of them straight graded.

messydesk

@braddick said:
There have been many pretty toned Silver Eagles in PCGS slabs.

I wonder if the market for them would increase in value or decrease if PCGS ever decided to stop grading them?

That would largely depend on what they did with their grade guarantee for toned ASEs.

U1chicago

@1madman said:

@braddick said:
There have been many pretty toned Silver Eagles in PCGS slabs.

I wonder if the market for them would increase in value or decrease if PCGS ever decided to stop grading them?

They would drop precipitately. Remember the thread a couple months ago about pcgs no longer recognizing some die variety on a Mercury dime. The coin became worthless because it no longer fit in a registry set, and carried no prestige. Same thing here. PCGS would want nothing to do with them, and I think they’d become widgets quick.

It's not close to the varieties. Those had separate PCGS numbers and their own registry. A toned silver eagle has the same PCGS number as an untoned silver eagle. There would be no way to take them out of the registry for the coins already graded. Plus the highest registry scores are for 70 grades; nice toners with that grade are virtually nonexistent (I've seen one at auction). So the registry plays a much smaller role for these coins.

U1chicago

@messydesk said:

@braddick said:
There have been many pretty toned Silver Eagles in PCGS slabs.

I wonder if the market for them would increase in value or decrease if PCGS ever decided to stop grading them?

That would largely depend on what they did with their grade guarantee for toned ASEs.

Would that even matter? Does PCGS guarantee a coin for above its PCGS guide value? Plenty of toned ASEs are MS 67 or below. The PCGS guide for this grade is below $50 for most dates. The market value can easily be 10x guide.

On a similar note, didn't the TPGs stop guaranteeing ASEs that develop milk spots? Has that decreased the 70 market significantly or do most 70s still sell for a premium?

olympicsos

Part of me doesn't understand why ASE's should even be accepted for certification as they're not in danger of attrition like other series' are. But if there's money to be made and if there's a need to protect 69 and 70s that would be raw otherwise, then more power to them.

Jacques_Loungecoque

@olympicsos said:
Part of me doesn't understand why ASE's should even be accepted for certification as they're not in danger of attrition like other series' are. But if there's money to be made and if there's a need to protect 69 and 70s that would be raw otherwise, then more power to them.

There could be multiple reasons listed but like all businesses, income keeps the lights on, staff employed, and owners comfortable. I’m not disparaging our host, N, or any other TPG. Just stating a rhetorical question: why would they turn the income away? The revenue ASEs provide to TPGs has surely been at least partially reinvested in upgrades, technology, development, hiring top tier graders….