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Central American Republic 8 reales 1824
genosse
Posts: 34 ✭✭
Hello, friends!
Does anyone have any information about this coin?
What is this - a pattern, a contemporary counterfeit, or something else?
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
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It is listed as a pattern in A Monetary History of Central America by Brian Stickney. That book says "Probably struck at the Royal Mint, London. Ref. Fonrobert 7209. Extremely Rare. Five Known."
You can find one past sale in the Goldberg auctioneers archive, I think in the sale of The Millennia Collection in 2008. Here's what they have:
I would also like to know more as that's about all I know.
Thank you very much for the information!
This coin is of very high quality.
I called it European quality and that means I was not mistaken.
This coin is very similar to this 8 reales Peruvian 1826, which is also considered a pattern.
I have a version that these coins were made in Great Britain specifically for collectors.
I don’t know whether the government of the Central American Republic placed an order in Great Britain for the development of coin designs, the purchase of equipment, and so on.
But I know for sure that in Peru they came up with the design of the coins themselves in 1825 and they did not order the production of patterns in the UK.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
@MrEureka
Latin American Collection
That's the coin in the OP images. I can only add that the weight can vary significantly on these. I don't know why.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
RE: 1824 Central America Rep. pattern (?) 8R...
The engraving is obviously very detailed and intricate, but that sunface is too... um, squooshed together? I'll stick with the official version, thank you.
So we have a modern book stating "probably struck at the Royal Mint, London", 1878's Fonrobert describing it simply as a "very fine apparently English work", and a relatively early (1927) UK auction appearance. Put together, clearly all hints at British origin. @MrEureka, any knowledge about where other examples have surfaced out of?
RE: 1826 Lima pattern (???)...
Yes, rather stylized replicas of or tributes to certain scarce pieces were apparently made in Europe in the later 1800s for collectors. Have you seen information that specifically ties either of these pieces to that?
Aside from that, this piece kind of seems reminiscent of the Thonnelier Chile and Peru patterns...
I have only circumstantial evidence, guesses and assumptions.
I know that the British company Boulton, Watt and Co. made patterns for the governments of Brazil, Haiti and Mexico.
But these orders were preceded by long official negotiations and bureaucratic correspondence.
I know that some British engravers privately made medals from Latin American countries (apparently this was a fashionable at the time).
For example, this pattern of a Haitian gourde from 1820 was made by the British engraver Joseph William Taylor in the 1840s.
And it is clear that this was no longer a pattern of a state coin, but a medal for collectors.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
By the way, the second similar specimen of the 8 reales Peruvian coin from 1826 was also sold at the Goldberg auction in 2008.
In the description of the pattern there is no mention of English work
Please note that the weight of the pattern (29.3 grams) is greater than that of the genuine coin.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
Peltzer acquired the Fonrobert coin via Ulex (lot 1997) in the 1908 Hess sale. My Fonrobert bid book notes Ulex as the buyer, so that provenance chain is fairly assured.
Latin American Collection
The provenance confirms that the coin was made in the 19th century.
But when was it made - in 1825 or 1845?
The provenance does not say this.
The catalog of the collection of Julius Guttag on page 461 shows an 8 reales Peruvian coin from 1837.
In the catalog it is defined as the “second die”.
Although this is an obvious contemporary counterfeit.
Well known now.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
Victor Hugo Sandoval posting that the 1824 pictured is a fake.
Latin American Collection
@Boosibri I saw that. Thoughts?
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Although I'm unaware of any documentation proving when and where the 1824 Guatemala 8R was struck, it seems like the quality of production is higher than what we would expect of a privately struck counterfeit struck 100+ years ago. And there are plenty of other Latin American patterns of similar fabric, probably struck for the same purpose as the 1824.
Here's a similar piece that I rejected at first, thinking it was probably fake. Perhaps two to three years later, I had a second shot at the coin, rethought my position, and decided to buy it. My best guess is that it was also made in Europe as a pattern, but I could be wrong.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I understand his logic.
The monedasdeguatemala.com website states that the Central American Republic coin designs and dies were made by prominent Guatemalan artists and engravers Jose Casildo Espana and Francisco Cabrera.
That is, the government of the Central American Republic did not order the development of the coin design and the production of the pattern from Britain.
This means that this 1824 coin is not a pattern.
The design on the coin is different from the design on the genuine coin.
This means that this coin is a FALSA.
However, Victor Hugo Sandoval does not specify whether it is a modern forgery or an contemporary counterfeit.
And he doesn't compare this coin with similar coins (8 reales Peruvian 1826, which I showed above)
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
This coin is very similar to the famous contemporary counterfeits of the 1833 Republic of Honduras 2 Reales coins made in the USA at the Belleville Mint
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
The copper 1832 @MrEureka showed (ex-Richard Stuart) is a much higher quality of engraving than those typical 1833 counterfeits. It indeed seems to be along the lines of the 1824 CAR 8R and 1826 Lima 8R discussed above.
Those typical 1833s... while they are "deeply" or boldly engraved and the planchets are rounder than the genuine 1832-1833 CAR and Est. de Hond. emissions, if you actually look at the detail, it's quite cartoonish. It rather infuriates me how many of those make it into holders as genuine, like the one posted above.
Wait, are we saying the 1824 NG is not an official issue? Here's one i used to own about 15 years ago. Ex: WWW, MrEureka, SM Damon
8 Reales Madness Collection
No, specifically this version or pattern or imitation or ???? - the enlarged pics were blurry. The differences are apparent.
http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=46&lot=1059&lang=1
The sun on that one looks like it’s trying to divide 431 by 17 and subtract the total by a mushroom, while sitting on the toilet.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Compare the leaves on the tree.
It seems to me that the engraver copied not a genuine coin, but a counterfeit.
That's why I write that this pattern looks like a counterfeit.
The copper 1832 MrEureka showed is a very interesting coin.
Of course it is similar to the 8 reales patterns.
But I have one question - I understand when the government orders the production of patterns of different denominations or when a large beautiful coin is copied for collectors.
I don’t understand when the government orders a pattern of a coin that should be minted for a short period of time (PROVISIONAL) or when a small provincial coin is copied for collectors.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet