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Is it cheaper to collect raw coins vs graded coins?

PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 18, 2024 4:18PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I am leaning towards doing my 1796-1891 US dimes in low raw grades vs PCGS graded. I have no intentions of sealing any I buy and would be much easier to store. I am looking to build the set in AG-03 to F-12.

I will have to become a better judge of grade but keeping in this grade ranges should make it easier.

Are there lots of fake coins in the series I am collecting? Or very few if any?

Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

Sports: NFL & NHL

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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mr1931S said:
    That will make for a really challenging and interesting set on completion. Beware of counterfeits!

    Are there many fakes and if so what dates are the most faked? I will buy from well known dealers for the more expensive coins for sure 1796-1811.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 5:05PM

    I just broke out the 3 coins I own so far just started this journey this month. All 3 were in PCGS slabs now in 2 by 2's I prefer collecting them raw. I will buy them raw moving forward as not to break other PCGS holders. There are enough of them out there for sale in raw condition anyways for most dates.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 5:08PM

    Will use these to store them and the more expensive and rare ones will put them in my bank vault and this binder in my large safe at home (bolted to the ground). Best to be safe.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,253 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This project should be fun, but it is likely to take a long time.

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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 5:24PM

    @Smudge said:
    This project should be fun, but it is likely to take a long time.

    That is exactly what I want 15-20 years would be great I have other series from Mexico and Peru that are my main focuses. This is just to make sure I can be a collector for the rest of my life or close to it. If not I will add up to 1916 and if that is not enough then up to 1945. Will see with time how far I go with this collection.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,150 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 6:54PM

    @logger7 said:
    There's just too much raw problem material out there in the $50 and over range especially, as coins become more valuable it becomes more important to buy certifieds.

    Agree.
    I’d be less worried about counterfeits, and more worried about the problem material. Not that I’m usually a subscriber to the old adage, “it’s raw for a reason”, but these early coins can have a lot of hard to detect issues; bent, skillfully plugged, hidden damage, smoothing, etc. Problem coins can make good hole fillers for the tough coins in the album, but pay accordingly!

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 7:05PM

    @Walkerguy21D said:

    @logger7 said:
    There's just too much raw problem material out there in the $50 and over range especially, as coins become more valuable it becomes more important to buy certifieds.

    Agree.
    I’d be less worried about counterfeits, and more worried about the problem material. Not that I’m usually a subscriber to the old adage, “it’s raw for a reason”, but these early coins can have a lot of hard to detect issues; bent, skillfully plugged, hidden damage, smoothing, etc. Problem coins can make good hole fillers for the tough coins in the album, but pay accordingly!

    Thanks I will watch out as best as I can. Do top dealers like Heritage Auctions, DLRC, Great Collections and so on offer better protection against such coins. Will they check a coin over before selling it compared to not well known eBay sellers. I will do my best to stick with better known dealers.

    Maybe best to buy the earlier coins 1796-1811 graded by PCGS and the rest raw (except for the key dates again use PCGS)?

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 7:08PM

    Is eBay the main source for raw coins (online I mean)?

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are counterfeits, and some of them are very old.

    One of the few pieces that tripped me up when I was a dealer was a 1798 Bust Dime. I bought the coin from a dealer who had bought it from a Bowers and Ruddy Auction. It had a sharpness grade of Fine. I sold it to a customer who sent it to ANACS. They called it a counterfeit. I refunded the customer’s money and took it back to the dealer from whom I purchased it. He returned it to Bowers, and they made good it despite the fact that the auction had been more than a year ago. Bravo to Bowers! :)

    I had to spend about 5 minutes with it using a 10x glass to finally see the problem with the surfaces. My dealer friend couldn’t spot it.

    The point is, the thing was a darn well done counterfeit, it was well before the Chinese era.

    A 1798 dime is going to be pricy in any grade. It will be tough to find that date, or any of the other early ones, raw. And it can be a dangerous buy.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2024 8:20PM

    @BillJones said:
    There are counterfeits, and some of them are very old.

    One of the few pieces that tripped me up when I was a dealer was a 1798 Bust Dime. I bought the coin from a dealer who had bought it from a Bowers and Ruddy Auction. It had a sharpness grade of Fine. I sold it to a customer who sent it to ANACS. They called it a counterfeit. I refunded the customer’s money and took it back to the dealer from whom I purchased it. He returned it to Bowers, and they made good it despite the fact that the auction had been more than a year ago. Bravo to Bowers! :)

    I had to spend about 5 minutes with it using a 10x glass to finally see the problem with the surfaces. My dealer friend couldn’t spot it.

    The point is, the thing was a darn well done counterfeit, it was well before the Chinese era.

    A 1798 dime is going to be pricy in any grade. It will be tough to find that date, or any of the other early ones, raw. And it can be a dangerous buy.

    Guess I will buy the earlier dates 1796-1811 graded by PCGS and keep them that way.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PillarDollarCollector said:

    Thanks I will watch out as best as I can. Do top dealers like Heritage Auctions, DLRC, Great Collections and so on offer better protection against such coins. Will they check a coin over before selling it compared to not well known eBay sellers. I will do my best to stick with better known dealers.

    Maybe best to buy the earlier coins 1796-1811 graded by PCGS and the rest raw (except for the key dates again use PCGS)?

    The 2 companies you mention mostly sell certified coins at auction. The certified coins have been checked over and described by the companies that put the coins in their slabs.

    There are many companies selling raw coins in auctions. Check out hibid, proxibid, liveauctioneer and there are others that host auctions for local auction houses. You are buying off of description and/or a few pictures. Many problem coins can nt be determined by photographs.

    There are some bigger coin companies that have websites selling raw coins, some pictured and some described.

    Coin shows are a good source of raw and certified coins.

    Back to your first question, is it cheaper to collect raw versus certified? It depends on how good you are at grading and detecting problem coins. If you are collecting something that is not very common, you might need to buy wherever and whenever you see one.

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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The idea is to have fun. If that's low grade and enjoyable over a lifetime, then that's where the fun is, I guess. Raw reminds me of the strawberries I got when I fell and scraped my hands and knees , as a kid. The majority of raw which comes into a shop is common and/or problematic.
    To fill a hole ? That is the question.

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    Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 3,693 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PillarDollarCollector said:

    @BillJones said:
    There are counterfeits, and some of them are very old.

    One of the few pieces that tripped me up when I was a dealer was a 1798 Bust Dime. I bought the coin from a dealer who had bought it from a Bowers and Ruddy Auction. It had a sharpness grade of Fine. I sold it to a customer who sent it to ANACS. They called it a counterfeit. I refunded the customer’s money and took it back to the dealer from whom I purchased it. He returned it to Bowers, and they made good it despite the fact that the auction had been more than a year ago. Bravo to Bowers! :)

    I had to spend about 5 minutes with it using a 10x glass to finally see the problem with the surfaces. My dealer friend couldn’t spot it.

    The point is, the thing was a darn well done counterfeit, it was well before the Chinese era.

    A 1798 dime is going to be pricy in any grade. It will be tough to find that date, or any of the other early ones, raw. And it can be a dangerous buy.

    Guess I will buy the earlier dates 1796-1811 graded by PCGS and keep them that way.

    If I were collecting a low grade set like you're planning. I'd still crack them out and collect the set in a Dansco. Save the slab inserts.

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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Something not addressed last post, that I often think about regarding collecting "raw". To me, if it has to be cracked out of a TPG holder, it's not really a "raw" coin, in the sense of a finding. But again, it's about the thrill of the hunt and filling that empty hole. I like your thinking and approach ( as fun goes).

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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,150 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PillarDollarCollector said:

    @Walkerguy21D said:

    @logger7 said:
    There's just too much raw problem material out there in the $50 and over range especially, as coins become more valuable it becomes more important to buy certifieds.

    Agree.
    I’d be less worried about counterfeits, and more worried about the problem material. Not that I’m usually a subscriber to the old adage, “it’s raw for a reason”, but these early coins can have a lot of hard to detect issues; bent, skillfully plugged, hidden damage, smoothing, etc. Problem coins can make good hole fillers for the tough coins in the album, but pay accordingly!

    Thanks I will watch out as best as I can. Do top dealers like Heritage Auctions, DLRC, Great Collections and so on offer better protection against such coins. Will they check a coin over before selling it compared to not well known eBay sellers. I will do my best to stick with better known dealers.

    Maybe best to buy the earlier coins 1796-1811 graded by PCGS and the rest raw (except for the key dates again use PCGS)?

    You can likely buy coins from any of the major services, be assured they are genuine, and that most/all of the problems are disclosed on the holder. If you venture into buying problem coins, I’d look for those that still have decent eye appeal. I practice this for early large cents myself.

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,828 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PillarDollarCollector said:

    @BillJones said:
    There are counterfeits, and some of them are very old.

    One of the few pieces that tripped me up when I was a dealer was a 1798 Bust Dime. I bought the coin from a dealer who had bought it from a Bowers and Ruddy Auction. It had a sharpness grade of Fine. I sold it to a customer who sent it to ANACS. They called it a counterfeit. I refunded the customer’s money and took it back to the dealer from whom I purchased it. He returned it to Bowers, and they made good it despite the fact that the auction had been more than a year ago. Bravo to Bowers! :)

    I had to spend about 5 minutes with it using a 10x glass to finally see the problem with the surfaces. My dealer friend couldn’t spot it.

    The point is, the thing was a darn well done counterfeit, it was well before the Chinese era.

    A 1798 dime is going to be pricy in any grade. It will be tough to find that date, or any of the other early ones, raw. And it can be a dangerous buy.

    **Guess I will buy the earlier dates 1796-1811 graded by PCGS and keep them that way. **

    This is the tack I've taken for early copper. Most of my Large Cent collection is raw but I stopped cracking coins out (in general) after I completed my 7070 album. I like the presentation of the album but the remaining coins I'm after are heavily counterfeited and the affordable ones will likely have problems. I'm not a 100% purist so I wouldn't mind having ANY 1793 Chain Cent in my collection... I'd just want whatever damage was there to be noted on the holder and that all important GENUINE on the label too... FWIW, here's a 1797 Half Cent I bought for my Box of 20. Yes, it has a huge scratch on the obverse field but Liberty Cap Half Cents (much like early dimes) were used heavily in commerce and very few survive today. Best of Luck in the hunt!!

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭✭
    There are a tiny number of dealers I would buy raw coins from.  We are a product of our experiences and many years ago I had a profound experience with raw coins.
     I had to sell most of my collection in 1982 in order to pay medical bills.  Life moves on though and by 1984  I once again had money for coins.  My plan was to buy a trio of high grade Barber Coins and then pick one denomination to collect.
     Back then Coin World was king.  I found an add that offered the coins I had in mind and I remember a tiny corner of the add bragged how the combo of dealers had over a "Century" of experience.  The coins came, but the half had been heavily whizzed and both the quarter and dime had grey splotches that turned black almost before my eyes.  They were suppose to have a 30 day return period, but claimed "I" was the crook and was switching coins on them.
    The fellow I dealt with on the phone  several times was rude and arrogant.  I threatened to contact all the different organizations they claimed to belong to and he begged me to call them.  He said the dealers had all signed off on the coins, the people I would call were all their closest friends and everyone would have a great laugh that a "Hick from the Sticks" like me thought he could run with an inside crowd like them.
     Coulda, woulda, shoulda.  That was many years ago and this is a different day and age but never forget.  If you don't know exactly "Who" you are dealing with you may have little recourse or proof if you get into a dispute.  Just my advice.  James
    
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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will buy the 1796-1811 graded by PCGS and other key dates as well the rest I will buy raw and if need be graded and crack them out if I cannot find a raw example ungraded.

    I think this is the most safe way to collect this series based on the comments here.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2024 11:20AM

    @Manifest_Destiny said:

    @PillarDollarCollector said:

    @BillJones said:
    There are counterfeits, and some of them are very old.

    One of the few pieces that tripped me up when I was a dealer was a 1798 Bust Dime. I bought the coin from a dealer who had bought it from a Bowers and Ruddy Auction. It had a sharpness grade of Fine. I sold it to a customer who sent it to ANACS. They called it a counterfeit. I refunded the customer’s money and took it back to the dealer from whom I purchased it. He returned it to Bowers, and they made good it despite the fact that the auction had been more than a year ago. Bravo to Bowers! :)

    I had to spend about 5 minutes with it using a 10x glass to finally see the problem with the surfaces. My dealer friend couldn’t spot it.

    The point is, the thing was a darn well done counterfeit, it was well before the Chinese era.

    A 1798 dime is going to be pricy in any grade. It will be tough to find that date, or any of the other early ones, raw. And it can be a dangerous buy.

    Guess I will buy the earlier dates 1796-1811 graded by PCGS and keep them that way.

    If I were collecting a low grade set like you're planning. I'd still crack them out and collect the set in a Dansco. Save the slab inserts.

    Save the Trueviews or take photos before you do. One cannot associate a coin with a slab insert without photo evidence.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My answer would vary depending on my collecting objectives for the coin series of interest.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,816 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good luck in your endeavor.

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    yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Expect some speed bumps, but no reason that a single minded focus would not be successful in the end.

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

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    124Spider124Spider Posts: 848 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2024 7:58PM

    As much as I have learned about grading/evaluating a coin, I have learned also that I am not an expert.

    The vast majority of my collections are comprised of raw coins, but raw coins that have low value; I won't buy a raw coin that cost more than about US$200, because I could easily miss some important, subtle issue, and regret it eventually.

    I have bought graded coins and cracked them out to put in an album.

    YMMV; good luck, and have fun!

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    rec78rec78 Posts: 5,690 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good luck finding the early dates in nice condition. Most of the available dates 1796-1811 are beat up, well worn, holed or not to great looking. I did manage to get an 1802 and 1804 and one of the rare 1798 varieties. I never finished the set I do not have a 1796 or 1800 or 1801. Even a beat up junky 1804 will cost quite a bit.

    image
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    PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rec78 said:
    Good luck finding the early dates in nice condition. Most of the available dates 1796-1811 are beat up, well worn, holed or not to great looking. I did manage to get an 1802 and 1804 and one of the rare 1798 varieties. I never finished the set I do not have a 1796 or 1800 or 1801. Even a beat up junky 1804 will cost quite a bit.

    It is OK as long as the date is clear and some details appear on both sides I will be OK with owning them. I know this is going to happen but I am OK with it. If it is holed but has better details that a non holed one I will be happy with that coin. I am use to that with Latin American coins I also collect.

    Collecting interests: Coins from Latin American (2020-present)

    Sports: NFL & NHL

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