@Clackamas1 said:
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
And what are the chances that two different major varieties are found in the same original bank roll? Seems these are intentionally created and released together. Or did that dastardly bolt keep dropping while both dies were being prepared at precisely the same time and location?
The odds would be astronomical, don't you think?!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@DCW said:
And what are the chances that two different major varieties are found in the same original bank roll?
They weren't "major varieties" when they were released. That only happened after the fact.
You've already admitted that the "extra leaf" on Roosevelt's ear is probably a coincidence; if you think the "extra leaf" quarters are not a coincidence, that seems more related to your viewing bias than anything else.
They were immediately viewed as major varieties. Were you not collecting coins back then?
Viewing bias? Get real. Sounds like some workplace discrimination training video. Lol. Also, why do you keep calling that an extra leaf on Roosevelt's ear? To me, it is just an anomaly. Not too interesting
And AGAIN- just because the same tool could have been used to make both marks doesn't mean that the same tool couldn't have been accidentally dropped in the center of a dime die and ALSO used intentionally to artfully create the "extra leaf" varieties.
I don't own either, by the way. I'm just not buying that those leaves weren't put there on purpose. And it's a valid opinion. Don't be so harsche.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@DCW said:
They were immediately viewed as major varieties. Were you not collecting coins back then?
They were not released from the Mint as varieties; at that point, they were just regular coins. They had to be discovered and promoted to the public before they could become "major varieties".
Viewing bias?
Yes.
Also, why do you keep calling that an extra leaf on Roosevelt's ear?
It's the same mark and in the same place on the die. I'm also doing it to make an important point. You're only calling the marks "extra leaves" because they happen to be next to other leaves on the quarter (again, due to your viewing bias). If you call the same mark an "extra leaf" when it's next to Roosevelt's ear, it doesn't make any sense. That's the whole point.
And AGAIN- just because the same tool could have been used to make both marks doesn't mean that the same tool couldn't have been accidentally dropped in the center of a dime die and ALSO used intentionally to artfully create the "extra leaf" varieties.
When you have reason to believe that those kinds of marks are being made by mistake, and you have no direct evidence that any were made intentionally, as well as no suspects and no motive, why would you ever attribute an intention to them? It makes no sense.
I don't own either, by the way. I'm just not buying that those leaves weren't put there on purpose. And it's a valid opinion. Don't be so harsche.
"They were not released from the Mint as varieties; at that point, they were just regular coins. They had to be discovered and promoted to the public before they could become "major varieties".
Well, of course. All varieties, even the 1955 doubled die, started out as normal coins until they were discovered. My point is they were recognized very, very quickly as significant varieties, and it was national news. I dont think many people even know about the extra ear or your telephonic cow. Lol, telekinetic whatever!
We will agree to disagree. I dont need a suspect to suspect tomfoolery. The US Mint has years and years of this kind of behavior.
But it's impossible to prove or disprove. So the point is moot
Suddenly I want to buy these things 😆
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@Clackamas1 said:
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
Where are they all today?
I got them graded and sold them all at the time. Never got an MS67 but a bunch of 66's came out of it.
I'm wondering if this was the final goal all along. I'm not talking conspiracy here but maybe some type of (inside baseball) numismatic promotional gimmick. The W quarter program, speared eagles, speared Bison etc..
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@Clackamas1 said:
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
**They were immediately viewed as major varieties. ** Were you not collecting coins back then?
They were instantly recognized and people knew about them so quickly they could get BU rolls from the banks with them still in. It was a mad rush. The ones I got came out of the Phoenix area but I have heard they showed up other places. It makes sense they would be concentrated since they all came in the same ballistic bags.
@Clackamas1 said:
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
Where are they all today?
I got them graded and sold them all at the time. Never got an MS67 but a bunch of 66's came out of it.
You sold them all? You didn't keep any?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@Clackamas1 said:
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
Where are they all today?
I got them graded and sold them all at the time. Never got an MS67 but a bunch of 66's came out of it.
You sold them all? You didn't keep any?
Nope, I had a two year old and needed to pay the bills. It was not my thing anyway and still is not. I was into Lincolns heavy at the time and making money.
@Clackamas1 said:
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
Where are they all today?
I got them graded and sold them all at the time. Never got an MS67 but a bunch of 66's came out of it.
You sold them all? You didn't keep any?
Nope, I had a two year old and needed to pay the bills. It was not my thing anyway and still is not. I was into Lincolns heavy at the time and making money.
Okay, thanks.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@OAKSTAR said:
Wouldn't it be remarkable if the mint employee/s responsible for this and these types of anomaly came forward in a public statement. Hi, my name is ... John Doe, I was the Chief Engraver at the United States Mint from....X to X (pick the dates) I retired on....(pick a date). On or about..(pick a date) I intentionally manipulated, altered and modified the dies on the 2004-D Wisconsin Quarters...
Then he proceeds to explain why.... Maybe... "The dies were damaged. I altered the die design to prolong it's life. Or... I intentionally and maliciously changed the design because I didn't like it." This is all just wishful thinking on my part.
I don't know the names of the position that have access to the dies or who is in a position to tamper, alter, manipulate or modify the dies. Nor do I know the day to day operations of a typical day at the mint.
The designs of all coins go through a rigorous approval process.
Wouldn't it be a problem if the approved original design was altered or manipulated? @dcarr, if you were the artist or sculptor who originally designed and created it, wouldn't you question it?
It might be possible that the culprit didn't even know it happened.
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Yes, and this is why I think the US Mint has nothing to offer for information as to who (if anyone) was responsible. This is because nobody realized at the time that it had happened. No attempt was made to trace the causes until much later (when it was too late to determine anything).
As a sculptor, I have had a couple of my designs be altered before they were put to use. One reason that I have my own mint is that I don't have to get approval for most of the things I make.
In the case of the Rhode Island state quarter, the minted design was pretty close to my concept, except that the water, especially near the sailboat, was changed and filled in with a lot more texture. I preferred it my way, but I was still happy to have my design in any minted form. In the case of the Maine state quarter, I was not happy with the US Mint's vastly different rendition of my concept (and the state of Maine was not happy either).
@Clackamas1 said:
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
And what are the chances that two different major varieties are found in the same original bank roll? Seems these are intentionally created and released together. Or did that dastardly bolt keep dropping while both dies were being prepared at precisely the same time and location?
The odds would be astronomical, don't you think?!
.
If multiple dies were handled in the same way, and a bolt was fixed in the wrong place, then multiple dies could suffer similar accidental damage.
@OAKSTAR said:
Wouldn't it be remarkable if the mint employee/s responsible for this and these types of anomaly came forward in a public statement. Hi, my name is ... John Doe, I was the Chief Engraver at the United States Mint from....X to X (pick the dates) I retired on....(pick a date). On or about..(pick a date) I intentionally manipulated, altered and modified the dies on the 2004-D Wisconsin Quarters...
Then he proceeds to explain why.... Maybe... "The dies were damaged. I altered the die design to prolong it's life. Or... I intentionally and maliciously changed the design because I didn't like it." This is all just wishful thinking on my part.
I don't know the names of the position that have access to the dies or who is in a position to tamper, alter, manipulate or modify the dies. Nor do I know the day to day operations of a typical day at the mint.
The designs of all coins go through a rigorous approval process.
Wouldn't it be a problem if the approved original design was altered or manipulated? @dcarr, if you were the artist or sculptor who originally designed and created it, wouldn't you question it?
It might be possible that the culprit didn't even know it happened.
.
Yes, and this is why I think the US Mint has nothing to offer for information as to who (if anyone) was responsible.This is because nobody realized at the time that it had happened. No attempt was made to trace the causes until much later (when it was too late to determine anything).
As a sculptor, I have had a couple of my designs be altered before they were put to use. One reason that I have my own mint is that I don't have to get approval for most of the things I make.
In the case of the Rhode Island state quarter, the minted design was pretty close to my concept, except that the water, especially near the sailboat, was changed and filled in with a lot more texture. I preferred it my way, but I was still happy to have my design in any minted form. In the case of the Maine state quarter, I was not happy with the US Mint's vastly different rendition of my concept (and the state of Maine was not happy either).
.
Thanks for that additional explanation, it's making more sense to me.
I highlighted our one above sentence.
With all these types of anomalies (not mint errors) but unexplained anomalies like these, the ones that are widely recognized, published AND graded. Particularly, these modern coins because there's a recent history.. Why couldn't the mint just come out with a short public statement: WE DON'T KNOW!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I know of one Wisconsin D quarter roll, tight paper roll originating in AZ that has a High Leaf on one end and a Low Leaf quarter on the other end. This is not a Ebay put together roll. I know of a few rolls bank wrapped that show one Extra Leaf Quarter on one end. Isn't coin collecting Fun !!!!
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
I know of one Wisconsin D quarter roll, tight paper roll originating in AZ that has a High Leaf on one end and a Low Leaf quarter on the other end. This is not a Ebay put together roll. I know of a few rolls bank wrapped that show one Extra Leaf Quarter on one end. Isn't coin collecting Fun !!!!
You sure know a lot of stuff, from IG reports to articles to bank wrapped rolls with zero proof and documentation. Why is that?.. Asking for a friend.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Hi OAKSTAR, I have been very active in these Wisconsin Quarters since January, 2005 when I followed an EBay auction from Kerrville, Tx by a seller named Cuba who was mentioned in an early Coin World article. Contact Kerville Times in Kerville, Tx and ask if they featured me holding a NGC Set of quarters on the front pages their Living Section of theDecember 10-11, 2005 newspaper featuring an avid coin collector namely Me. Ask Rick Snow if I came on board early on. Do I need to continue ??
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
Hi OAKSTAR, I have been very active in these Wisconsin Quarters since January, 2005 when I followed an EBay auction from Kerrville, Tx by a seller named Cuba who was mentioned in an early Coin World article. Contact Kerville Times in Kerville, Tx and ask if they featured me holding a NGC Set of quarters on the front pages their Living Section of theDecember 10-11, 2005 newspaper featuring an avid coin collector namely Me. Ask Rick Snow if I came on board early on. Do I need to continue ??
You seem like a nice enough guy. I'm not going to do your research for you. Just product copies, links or pictures of what you're talking about and we'll be cool! Easy peasy!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Coins, is currently offering several sets and single PCGS nicely graded 20th Anniversary Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters on EBay. He has been kind enough to explain how these rare modern coins came about and how many were minted. Even the skeptics should gain some insight. I saw his Ebay offerings when I looked up Extra Leaf Quarter on EBay.
@OAKSTAR said:
Well, I guess we can put this one to bed!
.
I like Rick Snow and appreciate his knowledge.
But I see absolutely nothing here that is proof that it was intentionally done.
I do agree that the extra leafs appear to have been made when the dies were soft.
But just because the impacts occurred prior to hardening of the dies doesn't mean it was intentional.
A lot can go wrong during the hubbing process, subsequent handling of the dies, and hardening.
I do not agree that the marks were made by a "nut driver". But I think that is on the right track. The Low-Leaf version has an arc with a secondary arc very close to it. My experiment using a threaded bolt, tilted about 20 degrees from vertical, made an impression with secondary arcs that look very much like the Low-Leaf.
According to the internal Mint investigation from June 21, 2005, the Extra Leaf dies were put into two of the presses on a Friday night shift. It was late November, 2004. A bank of five presses strike the quarters and they flow into a single huge hopper. The coins are loaded into a balistic bag and shipped to the rolling facility in Utah. Soon after the presses started the coins were checked and the Extra leaf coins were discovered by the pressman. He shut off the two presses and took the dies out and put them on the shelf of the press. He then went to lunch.
Upon returning, he discovered the dies back in the presses and they were running again. He turned them off and told a supervisor. It is estimated that between 35,000 and 50,000 were struck while he was at lunch. These were comingled with regular coins and shipped out. The remaining coins after the second discovery was made were retrieved and destroyed.
The initial investigation was made on February 21 and 24, 2005. At that time the Die Shop Chief; Quality Assurance Chief, Quality Assurance Supervisor, Die Setter and Shift Coordinator agreed that the error was not the cause of a "Come Together" or die clash. However, someone who is blanked out on the report says that he was told by the die setter that these were caused by a "Come Together", but also said that he had not personally examined the dies.
Today, 20 years later we can tally up the amount of coins graded by PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG to get a good idea of the number of coins found. My tally shows about 25,000 High Leaf and 30,000 Low leaf coins found in MS condition. This is the same overall rarity as the 1955 Doubled die cent and the 1937-D 3-legged Buffalo nickel. Although the average grade of those coins are not MS grades, but XF to AU.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@Fraz said:
Why is this? (Corn husks don’t attach with rivets.)
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The bolt damage occurred to a working die after it was hubbed.
The fields of the design are the highest point on a die, and most prone to die gouges, etc.
The apparent "rivets" are an extension of the bolt arc imparted onto the valley between the leaves (this valley is also a high point on the die). The bolt arc does not appear to pass in front of the leaf because the edge of the leaf is a deeper part of the die and the impact was not hard enough to reach that depth.
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I just noticed that if the corn cob were life size, the kernels would be massive!
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
Hi OAKSTAR, I have been very active in these Wisconsin Quarters since January, 2005 when I followed an EBay auction from Kerrville, Tx by a seller named Cuba who was mentioned in an early Coin World article. Contact Kerville Times in Kerville, Tx and ask if they featured me holding a NGC Set of quarters on the front pages their Living Section of theDecember 10-11, 2005 newspaper featuring an avid coin collector namely Me. Ask Rick Snow if I came on board early on. Do I need to continue ??
Those were good times. Russ would give a "You Suck" if you found one.
I tended to agree with Snow , but as Dan asserts : there is no proof. If we recall, the Statehood Quarter Program was halfway through by 2004. And it was losing traction. People were losing interest paying an extra 47% over face for bags and rolls. The old guys ( like me ) needed something to keep supporting the mint. Then suddenly came about 40,000 each , of both varieties into the public sector and sales took off again at the mint. . I did not want to post again because the OP implied things that insulted me earlier. Thank wondercoin for vindication. Plus, I got over it.
This is why i have long held these varieties were created in the tool/die room. Then, so many of each were struck, the die setter changed them out, they got released to the public and we got sucked in deeper.
Again….. no mint reports necessary and subsequent investigations found nothing to confirm or deny. Mysteries at the mint. That’s my thinking.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I tended to agree with Snow , but as Dan asserts : there is no proof. If we recall, the Statehood Quarter Program was halfway through by 2004. And it was losing traction. People were losing interest paying an extra 47% over face for bags and rolls. The old guys ( like me ) needed something to keep supporting the mint. Then suddenly came about 40,000 each , of both varieties into the public sector and sales took off again at the mint. . I did not want to post again because the OP implied things that insulted me earlier. Thank wondercoin for vindication. Plus, I got over it.
This is why i have long held these varieties were created in the tool/die room. Then, so many of each were struck, the die setter changed them out, they got released to the public and we got sucked in deeper.
Again….. no mint reports necessary and subsequent investigations found nothing to confirm or deny. Mysteries at the mint. That’s my thinking.
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If the US Mint wanted to promote state quarter collecting, why would they do high/low leaf Wisconsin quarters ?
What about other states ?
Why wouldn't they announce that this was being done, so as to maximize publicity ?
Why would they only release them in a couple specific cities (far from Wisconsin) instead of spreading them around the country ?
Why would the US Mint do something like that when they could just as easily put "W" mint marks on some ?
There is no reason "why", other than it being an accidental mishap that nobody even noticed at the time.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I tended to agree with Snow , but as Dan asserts : there is no proof. If we recall, the Statehood Quarter Program was halfway through by 2004. And it was losing traction. People were losing interest paying an extra 47% over face for bags and rolls. The old guys ( like me ) needed something to keep supporting the mint. Then suddenly came about 40,000 each , of both varieties into the public sector and sales took off again at the mint. . I did not want to post again because the OP implied things that insulted me earlier. Thank wondercoin for vindication. Plus, I got over it.
This is why i have long held these varieties were created in the tool/die room. Then, so many of each were struck, the die setter changed them out, they got released to the public and we got sucked in deeper.
Again….. no mint reports necessary and subsequent investigations found nothing to confirm or deny. Mysteries at the mint. That’s my thinking.
.
If the US Mint wanted to promote state quarter collecting, why would they do high/low leaf Wisconsin quarters ?
What about other states ?
Why wouldn't they announce that this was being done, so as to maximize publicity ?
Why would they only release them in a couple specific cities (far from Wisconsin) instead of spreading them around the country ?
Why would the US Mint do something like that when they could just as easily put "W" mint marks on some ?
There is no reason "why", other than it being an accidental mishap that nobody even noticed at the time.
.
Another feasible explanation.
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I tended to agree with Snow , but as Dan asserts : there is no proof. If we recall, the Statehood Quarter Program was halfway through by 2004. And it was losing traction. People were losing interest paying an extra 47% over face for bags and rolls. The old guys ( like me ) needed something to keep supporting the mint. Then suddenly came about 40,000 each , of both varieties into the public sector and sales took off again at the mint. . I did not want to post again because the OP implied things that insulted me earlier. Thank wondercoin for vindication. Plus, I got over it.
This is why i have long held these varieties were created in the tool/die room. Then, so many of each were struck, the die setter changed them out, they got released to the public and we got sucked in deeper.
Again….. no mint reports necessary and subsequent investigations found nothing to confirm or deny. Mysteries at the mint. That’s my thinking.
.
If the US Mint wanted to promote state quarter collecting, why would they do high/low leaf Wisconsin quarters ?
What about other states ?
Why wouldn't they announce that this was being done, so as to maximize publicity ?
Why would they only release them in a couple specific cities (far from Wisconsin) instead of spreading them around the country ?
Why would the US Mint do something like that when they could just as easily put "W" mint marks on some ?
There is no reason "why", other than it being an accidental mishap that nobody even noticed at the time.
.
It made the front page of many papers all over the country.
I've never seen any mint announcement accomplish this. Most are never reported at all.
You can't buy or create any better publicity and it came at a time that interest was waning and mintages were plummeting. They were making hundreds of millions of dollars on these and, no doubt, wanted it to continue. I have some doubt these coins were even unofficially sanctioned but I do believe the mint became an accessory after the fact in their investigation.
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
I remember watching them salt balistic bags with scops full of W mint quarters and thinking how it both similar and dissimilar to varieties and types like the WI quarters. It's much easier to track down most varieties because they all go to the same place and by this I don't mean there's anything typical about two distinct varieties being manufactured and shipped together like the WI quarters. I can think of no examples of this ever having occurred previously.
It's a shame they didn't mix the W quarters in a lot better. Most of them seem to have been nabbed while still Uncirculated. It would be neat having them still circulating down to beat up VF.
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
I remember watching them salt balistic bags with scops full of W mint quarters and thinking how it both similar and dissimilar to varieties and types like the WI quarters. It's much easier to track down most varieties because they all go to the same place and by this I don't mean there's anything typical about two distinct varieties being manufactured and shipped together like the WI quarters. I can think of no examples of this ever having occurred previously.
It's a shame they didn't mix the W quarters in a lot better. Most of them seem to have been nabbed while still Uncirculated. It would be neat having them still circulating down to beat up VF.
So where are all the W quarters? Are there people who have found and hoarded thousands? They seem to be holding their value at over $10 for a BU.
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
I remember watching them salt balistic bags with scops full of W mint quarters and thinking how it both similar and dissimilar to varieties and types like the WI quarters. It's much easier to track down most varieties because they all go to the same place and by this I don't mean there's anything typical about two distinct varieties being manufactured and shipped together like the WI quarters. I can think of no examples of this ever having occurred previously.
It's a shame they didn't mix the W quarters in a lot better. Most of them seem to have been nabbed while still Uncirculated. It would be neat having them still circulating down to beat up VF.
So where are all the W quarters? Are there people who have found and hoarded thousands? They seem to be holding their value at over $10 for a BU.
I don't know. I'm guessing there is enough demand to support prices at these levels. I'm also guessing more than 75% were found Unc or as sliders. This is based on the rapidly diminishing number of finds AND the average grades of those being found.
It seems reasonable to me that demand can suck up 1 1/2 million of each of these. The true irony is that there isn't even enough demand to suck up all few thousands of the few remaining 1969 quarters in chBU.
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
I remember watching them salt balistic bags with scops full of W mint quarters and thinking how it both similar and dissimilar to varieties and types like the WI quarters. It's much easier to track down most varieties because they all go to the same place and by this I don't mean there's anything typical about two distinct varieties being manufactured and shipped together like the WI quarters. I can think of no examples of this ever having occurred previously.
It's a shame they didn't mix the W quarters in a lot better. Most of them seem to have been nabbed while still Uncirculated. It would be neat having them still circulating down to beat up VF.
What place would that be?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
I remember watching them salt balistic bags with scops full of W mint quarters and thinking how it both similar and dissimilar to varieties and types like the WI quarters. It's much easier to track down most varieties because they all go to the same place and by this I don't mean there's anything typical about two distinct varieties being manufactured and shipped together like the WI quarters. I can think of no examples of this ever having occurred previously.
It's a shame they didn't mix the W quarters in a lot better. Most of them seem to have been nabbed while still Uncirculated. It would be neat having them still circulating down to beat up VF.
So where are all the W quarters? Are there people who have found and hoarded thousands? They seem to be holding their value at over $10 for a BU.
Probably mostly on eBay today. I'm thinking the vast majority of them were scooped up in boxes from banks, before they hit circulation and commerce. They weren't complete full boxes of W's. They were salted in (like @cladking said) with the P's & D's. But those boxes were not distributed evenly throughout the country. So guys like me and yes, @QuarterFreddie were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and found an insane amount of Mint State W's!
I'm embarrassed to tell you how many. Because I know, there are/were a lot of guys out there looking very hard and have never found any.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
I remember watching them salt balistic bags with scops full of W mint quarters and thinking how it both similar and dissimilar to varieties and types like the WI quarters. It's much easier to track down most varieties because they all go to the same place and by this I don't mean there's anything typical about two distinct varieties being manufactured and shipped together like the WI quarters. I can think of no examples of this ever having occurred previously.
It's a shame they didn't mix the W quarters in a lot better. Most of them seem to have been nabbed while still Uncirculated. It would be neat having them still circulating down to beat up VF.
What place would that be?
The production of each die falls onto a conveyor belt that takes it to be counted. By definition varieties are pairs of dies (die varieties) so this production ends up on the same or subsequent pallets which tend to go to the same federal reserve district and then to the same banks in this district. The WI quarters went to Tucson and a few surrounding areas where the '82 NMM dime went to Sandusky, Ohio and Baltimore, Maryland. This makes them easy to find because everyone knew where to look. A lot of the 3 legged buffalos went to Montana but these got a chance to circulate before they were popularized so XF's and AU's could be found as far away as Indiana.
Both of the WI leaf types were minted together and released together. People could find several of both types in the same roll but there were none at all released anywhere around Chicago or Denver. It appears that a lot of the W quarters ended up in the cities and relatively few in sparsely populated areas. It appears that instead of a few dozen in every bag a few bags had thousands in them. These were snagged both before and after distribution. A few thousand of these quarters in a bag would leave several of them in hundreds of rolls that came from the bag. Fortunately they were added to the tops of bags or they'd have all come out at once facilitating their removal from circulation. They should have played hide and seek with these coins and there would be only half a million Uncs.
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
I remember watching them salt balistic bags with scops full of W mint quarters and thinking how it both similar and dissimilar to varieties and types like the WI quarters. It's much easier to track down most varieties because they all go to the same place and by this I don't mean there's anything typical about two distinct varieties being manufactured and shipped together like the WI quarters. I can think of no examples of this ever having occurred previously.
It's a shame they didn't mix the W quarters in a lot better. Most of them seem to have been nabbed while still Uncirculated. It would be neat having them still circulating down to beat up VF.
So where are all the W quarters? Are there people who have found and hoarded thousands? They seem to be holding their value at over $10 for a BU.
Probably mostly on eBay today. I'm thinking the vast majority of them were scooped up in boxes from banks, before they hit circulation and commerce. They weren't complete full boxes of W's. They were salted in (like @cladking said) with the P's & D's. But those boxes were not distributed evenly throughout the country. So guys like me and yes, @QuarterFreddie were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and found an insane amount of Mint State W's!
I'm embarrassed to tell you how many. Because I know, there are/were a lot of guys out there looking very hard and have never found any.
I should have looked harder than I did so it's my own fault. But new coin goes principally to areas where the economy is growing. Old quarters ae recirculated as they come in but only in places the economy is booming are there many new quarters being introduced. While the economy here in NW Indiana is solid there isn't much growth at this time so few new quarters are needed. Some federal reserve districts have been shipping coins out for decades because they tend to accumulate more than are needed. I could have secured some new quarters without traveling far but most banks are loathe to distribute any coins to collectors and simply will not cooperate especially if you don't have an account. The logistics just made it too complex so I found three of them; a nice Unc, a nice XF+, and a ratty AU. This is close to what I predicted based on established distribution patterns in this area. I've gotten lucky before and was downtown in one variety release. I tend to not be lucky because the economy here has gone through a few slack periods in my lifetime. I used to travel to look for coins but haven't in decades.
Comments
And what are the chances that two different major varieties are found in the same original bank roll? Seems these are intentionally created and released together. Or did that dastardly bolt keep dropping while both dies were being prepared at precisely the same time and location?
The odds would be astronomical, don't you think?!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
They weren't "major varieties" when they were released. That only happened after the fact.
You've already admitted that the "extra leaf" on Roosevelt's ear is probably a coincidence; if you think the "extra leaf" quarters are not a coincidence, that seems more related to your viewing bias than anything else.
They were immediately viewed as major varieties. Were you not collecting coins back then?
Viewing bias? Get real. Sounds like some workplace discrimination training video. Lol. Also, why do you keep calling that an extra leaf on Roosevelt's ear? To me, it is just an anomaly. Not too interesting
And AGAIN- just because the same tool could have been used to make both marks doesn't mean that the same tool couldn't have been accidentally dropped in the center of a dime die and ALSO used intentionally to artfully create the "extra leaf" varieties.
I don't own either, by the way. I'm just not buying that those leaves weren't put there on purpose. And it's a valid opinion. Don't be so harsche.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
They were not released from the Mint as varieties; at that point, they were just regular coins. They had to be discovered and promoted to the public before they could become "major varieties".
Yes.
It's the same mark and in the same place on the die. I'm also doing it to make an important point. You're only calling the marks "extra leaves" because they happen to be next to other leaves on the quarter (again, due to your viewing bias). If you call the same mark an "extra leaf" when it's next to Roosevelt's ear, it doesn't make any sense. That's the whole point.
When you have reason to believe that those kinds of marks are being made by mistake, and you have no direct evidence that any were made intentionally, as well as no suspects and no motive, why would you ever attribute an intention to them? It makes no sense.
I am never harsche.
"They were not released from the Mint as varieties; at that point, they were just regular coins. They had to be discovered and promoted to the public before they could become "major varieties".
Well, of course. All varieties, even the 1955 doubled die, started out as normal coins until they were discovered. My point is they were recognized very, very quickly as significant varieties, and it was national news. I dont think many people even know about the extra ear or your telephonic cow. Lol, telekinetic whatever!
We will agree to disagree. I dont need a suspect to suspect tomfoolery. The US Mint has years and years of this kind of behavior.
But it's impossible to prove or disprove. So the point is moot
Suddenly I want to buy these things 😆
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I got them graded and sold them all at the time. Never got an MS67 but a bunch of 66's came out of it.
I'm wondering if this was the final goal all along. I'm not talking conspiracy here but maybe some type of (inside baseball) numismatic promotional gimmick. The W quarter program, speared eagles, speared Bison etc..
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I got them graded and sold them all. > @DCW said:
They were instantly recognized and people knew about them so quickly they could get BU rolls from the banks with them still in. It was a mad rush. The ones I got came out of the Phoenix area but I have heard they showed up other places. It makes sense they would be concentrated since they all came in the same ballistic bags.
You sold them all? You didn't keep any?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Nope, I had a two year old and needed to pay the bills. It was not my thing anyway and still is not. I was into Lincolns heavy at the time and making money.
Okay, thanks.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
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Yes, and this is why I think the US Mint has nothing to offer for information as to who (if anyone) was responsible. This is because nobody realized at the time that it had happened. No attempt was made to trace the causes until much later (when it was too late to determine anything).
As a sculptor, I have had a couple of my designs be altered before they were put to use. One reason that I have my own mint is that I don't have to get approval for most of the things I make.
In the case of the Rhode Island state quarter, the minted design was pretty close to my concept, except that the water, especially near the sailboat, was changed and filled in with a lot more texture. I preferred it my way, but I was still happy to have my design in any minted form. In the case of the Maine state quarter, I was not happy with the US Mint's vastly different rendition of my concept (and the state of Maine was not happy either).
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If multiple dies were handled in the same way, and a bolt was fixed in the wrong place, then multiple dies could suffer similar accidental damage.
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Thanks for that additional explanation, it's making more sense to me.
I highlighted our one above sentence.
With all these types of anomalies (not mint errors) but unexplained anomalies like these, the ones that are widely recognized, published AND graded. Particularly, these modern coins because there's a recent history.. Why couldn't the mint just come out with a short public statement: WE DON'T KNOW!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Essentially the report only states the operator was out to lunch, literally.
If they say we don't know what happened so definitively that says we don't know what we are doing.
Yes, exactly. They would be acknowledging their incompetence. This gov't has already screwed up enough, no need the add to it!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I know of one Wisconsin D quarter roll, tight paper roll originating in AZ that has a High Leaf on one end and a Low Leaf quarter on the other end. This is not a Ebay put together roll. I know of a few rolls bank wrapped that show one Extra Leaf Quarter on one end. Isn't coin collecting Fun !!!!
You sure know a lot of stuff, from IG reports to articles to bank wrapped rolls with zero proof and documentation. Why is that?.. Asking for a friend.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Hi OAKSTAR, I have been very active in these Wisconsin Quarters since January, 2005 when I followed an EBay auction from Kerrville, Tx by a seller named Cuba who was mentioned in an early Coin World article. Contact Kerville Times in Kerville, Tx and ask if they featured me holding a NGC Set of quarters on the front pages their Living Section of theDecember 10-11, 2005 newspaper featuring an avid coin collector namely Me. Ask Rick Snow if I came on board early on. Do I need to continue ??
You seem like a nice enough guy. I'm not going to do your research for you. Just product copies, links or pictures of what you're talking about and we'll be cool! Easy peasy!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Coins, is currently offering several sets and single PCGS nicely graded 20th Anniversary Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters on EBay. He has been kind enough to explain how these rare modern coins came about and how many were minted. Even the skeptics should gain some insight. I saw his Ebay offerings when I looked up Extra Leaf Quarter on EBay.
Well, I guess we can put this one to bed!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
It's just all speculation, and it doesn't even conflict with DCarr's theory, so it certainly doesn't disprove it.
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I like Rick Snow and appreciate his knowledge.
But I see absolutely nothing here that is proof that it was intentionally done.
I do agree that the extra leafs appear to have been made when the dies were soft.
But just because the impacts occurred prior to hardening of the dies doesn't mean it was intentional.
A lot can go wrong during the hubbing process, subsequent handling of the dies, and hardening.
I do not agree that the marks were made by a "nut driver". But I think that is on the right track. The Low-Leaf version has an arc with a secondary arc very close to it. My experiment using a threaded bolt, tilted about 20 degrees from vertical, made an impression with secondary arcs that look very much like the Low-Leaf.
I don't disagree with you @dcarr. I'm just the messenger, don't shoot! Get Rick's ass in here and let him defend it.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Rick used deductive reasoning to determine that the damage was done to a pre-hardened die. He then jumps to a conclusion that it was intentional.
I got an email today describing the 20th anniversary. Here is a link to the MS65 sets on his website.
https://indiancent.com/2004-d-25c-wisconsin-extra-leaf-low-washington-50-states-quarters-pcgs-ms65-212292909.html
That is an advertisement blurb—
That's quite a story or imagination by:
It's like my dog eat my homework! 🤣
Finally proven! How many were made!
According to the internal Mint investigation from June 21, 2005, the Extra Leaf dies were put into two of the presses on a Friday night shift. It was late November, 2004. A bank of five presses strike the quarters and they flow into a single huge hopper. The coins are loaded into a balistic bag and shipped to the rolling facility in Utah. Soon after the presses started the coins were checked and the Extra leaf coins were discovered by the pressman. He shut off the two presses and took the dies out and put them on the shelf of the press. He then went to lunch.
Upon returning, he discovered the dies back in the presses and they were running again. He turned them off and told a supervisor. It is estimated that between 35,000 and 50,000 were struck while he was at lunch. These were comingled with regular coins and shipped out. The remaining coins after the second discovery was made were retrieved and destroyed.
The initial investigation was made on February 21 and 24, 2005. At that time the Die Shop Chief; Quality Assurance Chief, Quality Assurance Supervisor, Die Setter and Shift Coordinator agreed that the error was not the cause of a "Come Together" or die clash. However, someone who is blanked out on the report says that he was told by the die setter that these were caused by a "Come Together", but also said that he had not personally examined the dies.
Today, 20 years later we can tally up the amount of coins graded by PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG to get a good idea of the number of coins found. My tally shows about 25,000 High Leaf and 30,000 Low leaf coins found in MS condition. This is the same overall rarity as the 1955 Doubled die cent and the 1937-D 3-legged Buffalo nickel. Although the average grade of those coins are not MS grades, but XF to AU.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I just noticed that if the corn cob were life size, the kernels would be massive!
I have a set of these lower and upper leaf graded quarters that I bought on BST. These graded quarters are great to own too.
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Those were good times. Russ would give a "You Suck" if you found one.
I tended to agree with Snow , but as Dan asserts : there is no proof. If we recall, the Statehood Quarter Program was halfway through by 2004. And it was losing traction. People were losing interest paying an extra 47% over face for bags and rolls. The old guys ( like me ) needed something to keep supporting the mint. Then suddenly came about 40,000 each , of both varieties into the public sector and sales took off again at the mint. . I did not want to post again because the OP implied things that insulted me earlier. Thank wondercoin for vindication. Plus, I got over it.
This is why i have long held these varieties were created in the tool/die room. Then, so many of each were struck, the die setter changed them out, they got released to the public and we got sucked in deeper.
Again….. no mint reports necessary and subsequent investigations found nothing to confirm or deny. Mysteries at the mint. That’s my thinking.
Whatever it was it worked! Do you know why it worked?....
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
......Because we're here talking about it! 😉
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
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If the US Mint wanted to promote state quarter collecting, why would they do high/low leaf Wisconsin quarters ?
What about other states ?
Why wouldn't they announce that this was being done, so as to maximize publicity ?
Why would they only release them in a couple specific cities (far from Wisconsin) instead of spreading them around the country ?
Why would the US Mint do something like that when they could just as easily put "W" mint marks on some ?
There is no reason "why", other than it being an accidental mishap that nobody even noticed at the time.
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Another feasible explanation.
You mean like they did with the 2019 & 2020 W quarter program?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
It made the front page of many papers all over the country.
I've never seen any mint announcement accomplish this. Most are never reported at all.
You can't buy or create any better publicity and it came at a time that interest was waning and mintages were plummeting. They were making hundreds of millions of dollars on these and, no doubt, wanted it to continue. I have some doubt these coins were even unofficially sanctioned but I do believe the mint became an accessory after the fact in their investigation.
I remember watching them salt balistic bags with scops full of W mint quarters and thinking how it both similar and dissimilar to varieties and types like the WI quarters. It's much easier to track down most varieties because they all go to the same place and by this I don't mean there's anything typical about two distinct varieties being manufactured and shipped together like the WI quarters. I can think of no examples of this ever having occurred previously.
It's a shame they didn't mix the W quarters in a lot better. Most of them seem to have been nabbed while still Uncirculated. It would be neat having them still circulating down to beat up VF.
So where are all the W quarters? Are there people who have found and hoarded thousands? They seem to be holding their value at over $10 for a BU.
I don't know. I'm guessing there is enough demand to support prices at these levels. I'm also guessing more than 75% were found Unc or as sliders. This is based on the rapidly diminishing number of finds AND the average grades of those being found.
It seems reasonable to me that demand can suck up 1 1/2 million of each of these. The true irony is that there isn't even enough demand to suck up all few thousands of the few remaining 1969 quarters in chBU.
Whodda thunk it?
What place would that be?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Probably mostly on eBay today. I'm thinking the vast majority of them were scooped up in boxes from banks, before they hit circulation and commerce. They weren't complete full boxes of W's. They were salted in (like @cladking said) with the P's & D's. But those boxes were not distributed evenly throughout the country. So guys like me and yes, @QuarterFreddie were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and found an insane amount of Mint State W's!
I'm embarrassed to tell you how many. Because I know, there are/were a lot of guys out there looking very hard and have never found any.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
The production of each die falls onto a conveyor belt that takes it to be counted. By definition varieties are pairs of dies (die varieties) so this production ends up on the same or subsequent pallets which tend to go to the same federal reserve district and then to the same banks in this district. The WI quarters went to Tucson and a few surrounding areas where the '82 NMM dime went to Sandusky, Ohio and Baltimore, Maryland. This makes them easy to find because everyone knew where to look. A lot of the 3 legged buffalos went to Montana but these got a chance to circulate before they were popularized so XF's and AU's could be found as far away as Indiana.
Both of the WI leaf types were minted together and released together. People could find several of both types in the same roll but there were none at all released anywhere around Chicago or Denver. It appears that a lot of the W quarters ended up in the cities and relatively few in sparsely populated areas. It appears that instead of a few dozen in every bag a few bags had thousands in them. These were snagged both before and after distribution. A few thousand of these quarters in a bag would leave several of them in hundreds of rolls that came from the bag. Fortunately they were added to the tops of bags or they'd have all come out at once facilitating their removal from circulation. They should have played hide and seek with these coins and there would be only half a million Uncs.
I should have looked harder than I did so it's my own fault. But new coin goes principally to areas where the economy is growing. Old quarters ae recirculated as they come in but only in places the economy is booming are there many new quarters being introduced. While the economy here in NW Indiana is solid there isn't much growth at this time so few new quarters are needed. Some federal reserve districts have been shipping coins out for decades because they tend to accumulate more than are needed. I could have secured some new quarters without traveling far but most banks are loathe to distribute any coins to collectors and simply will not cooperate especially if you don't have an account. The logistics just made it too complex so I found three of them; a nice Unc, a nice XF+, and a ratty AU. This is close to what I predicted based on established distribution patterns in this area. I've gotten lucky before and was downtown in one variety release. I tend to not be lucky because the economy here has gone through a few slack periods in my lifetime. I used to travel to look for coins but haven't in decades.
I'd say this thread has just about been run to ground.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Maybe it's time to leaf the subject alone.