@fathom said:
The following quote from a seller is a reasonable explanation IMO.
.
I believe that I have clearly shown that all it takes to make these impressions is a momentary impact from the end of a threaded bolt. We already know of three dies that this happened to. There may have been many more that had similar accidental damage. But only the gouges that happened to be camouflaged in the design escaped detection during visual examination.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
Happy Anniversary to the 2004 D Extra leaf Quarters and the Extra Ear 2004 D Dime. It has been twenty years since these rouge varieties were created intentionally in the 2004 Denver Die Facility. Cheers for these great collectable coin examples to be part of numismatic history. Someday, the persons responsible will take credit for their handy work. It is unfortunate that it has taken so many years to be a staple member of the State Quarter Program.
.
Thinking about this, I have to consider another "Random Thought by DC" :
The Wisconsin state quarter has a cow, an ear of corn, and a cheese wheel on it.
How bad would that smell, especially after 20 years ?
@OAKSTAR said: @Creg - Looks like struck thru some grease.
Not grease, I thought that it was die cleaning marks. But, I posted not sure of what it is. . The little “leaf” does not match the other two leaves, though.
@fathom said:
The following quote from a seller is a reasonable explanation IMO.
I believe that I have clearly shown that all it takes to make these impressions is a momentary impact from the end of a threaded bolt. We already know of three dies that this happened to. There may have been many more that had similar accidental damage. But only the gouges that happened to be camouflaged in the design escaped detection during visual examination.
The two dies were also produced together, installed together, and their output released together.
Because of the way things are done this might still be coincidental but then add in the fact that the press that made the coins was restarted under "unusual" conditions while the operator was away and the odds of this being all tremendous coincidence seems to drop just about to zero. It certainly required intention to restart the press.
It's hard to believe large numbers of dies are scrapped out every year at any stage of production. You'd have more insights on this than I but it's also hard to imagine large numbers of bolts colliding with any number of dies.
I don’t imagine bolts bouncing, but wafting bits that cause those things. They look like shavings from the thread of a bolt.
How does it repeat? Fixing one problem, leaving another unfixed.
If I didn’t tune my VW well, vibration affected the adjustments for fuel, air, and spark over time. I fixed the worst in a hurry and I drove a while, then I have to address a problem again.
I think that dcarr explains it best.
@fathom said:
The following quote from a seller is a reasonable explanation IMO.
I believe that I have clearly shown that all it takes to make these impressions is a momentary impact from the end of a threaded bolt. We already know of three dies that this happened to. There may have been many more that had similar accidental damage. But only the gouges that happened to be camouflaged in the design escaped detection during visual examination.
The two dies were also produced together, installed together, and their output released together.
Because of the way things are done this might still be coincidental but then add in the fact that the press that made the coins was restarted under "unusual" conditions while the operator was away and the odds of this being all tremendous coincidence seems to drop just about to zero. It certainly required intention to restart the press.
It's hard to believe large numbers of dies are scrapped out every year at any stage of production. You'd have more insights on this than I but it's also hard to imagine large numbers of bolts colliding with any number of dies.
Does it matter if intentional or not at the end of the day? Still a cool naked eye variety with the speculation surrounding Mint hijinks. People have made a decent living on Mint hijinks, intentional or not collectors want these.
@fathom said:
Does it matter if intentional or not at the end of the day?
No, but it's bad when misinformation spreads from one collector to another. What's much worse is when misinformation is disseminated from official sources. We've made some progress from the Walter Breen era of passing unsupported nonsense off as fact, but we haven't completely left it behind.
Do you believe that an extra corn leaf was intentionally placed on Roosevelt's ear, or was that a coincidence?
Since leaves do not typically grow on human ears, probably a coincidence? 😆 Just because similar marks appear on different coin dies, even in the same year, does not mean that the tool that caused them can't be used intentionally to create a variety. The alignment was perfect, and it happened twice in the same batch.
Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm not buying it.
Just for giggles, can you post the dime you are referencing? I've seen it, but not in a long time.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@Creg said:
I don’t imagine bolts bouncing, but wafting bits that cause those things. They look like shavings from the thread of a bolt.
How does it repeat? Fixing one problem, leaving another unfixed.
If I didn’t tune my VW well, vibration affected the adjustments for fuel, air, and spark over time. I fixed the worst in a hurry and I drove a while, then I have to address a problem again.
I think that @dcarr explains it best.
Come on man. If a nail can bounce into a striking chamber, why not a bolt? 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@DCW said:
I'll always believe these were created intentionally. No disrespect to anyone here, but it's just too much of a coincidence for this guy.
Do you believe that an extra corn leaf was intentionally placed on Roosevelt's ear, or was that a coincidence?
I don't want to speak for @DCW but I don't believe he means "ALL" of these types of weird anomalies. The speared eagles and speared bison's might not have been intentional.
This 2007-P Washington $ Elongated Ray looks intentional.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Do you believe that an extra corn leaf was intentionally placed on Roosevelt's ear, or was that a coincidence?
Since leaves do not typically grow on human ears, probably a coincidence? 😆 Just because similar marks appear on different coin dies, even in the same year, does not mean that the tool that caused them can't be used intentionally to create a variety. The alignment was perfect, and it happened twice in the same batch.
Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm not buying it.
Just for giggles, can you post the dime you are referencing? I've seen it, but not in a long time.
We had a compelling discussion about this earlier in this very thread. Why not read it; it may open your eyes. I posted the image below, showing that the relative size and location of the "extra leaf" on Roosevelt's ear matches the "extra leaf" quarters almost exactly. You'll see my "telekenetic cow" variety in there as well for good measure. Do you think the telekenetic cow was created intentionally?
Not impressed with the telekinetic cow, sorry. I don't think every anomaly produced on a coin die is intentional. We have die breaks, cuds, chips, scratched, etc.
Dan is obviously the man to speak on things occurring at a Mint, because he operates one. I just think, he's proven it could have been a bolt used to create the leaf, not that it was accidental. We'll never know for sure, unless someone comes forward and admits to it.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@DCW said:
Not impressed with the telekinetic cow, sorry. I don't think every anomaly produced on a coin die is intentional. We have die breaks, cuds, chips, scratched, etc.
Dan is obviously the man to speak on things occurring at a Mint, because he operates one. I just think, he's proven it could have been a bolt used to create the leaf, not that it was accidental. We'll never know for sure, unless someone comes forward and admits to it.
I agree with you when you said it is probably a coincidence that there is an extra corn leaf on Roosevelt's ear. The same reasoning applies for why it is probably a coincidence on the quarters (telekenetic cow included).
I would be inclined to believe that the telekinetic cow was unintended, however, it remains my view that the leaves and the dime gouge were either intentional, or some mint worker has some explaining to do about how a bolt fell haphazardly on three different dies at the same mint in the same year around the same time.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
I am a collector and dealer of various modern coins. Living in South Texas since the mid eighties, I was fortunate to be a part of the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarter events since 01/2005. There were things that I have been fortunate enough to know that I believe Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod's proof that the coins were the result of unauthorized die manipulation at the Denver Mint in late 2004 to be true. They had a very interesting presentation back in 08/2007 at the Summer ANA Show in Milwaukee. I believe that the 2004 D Extra Ear Dime (FS-101) was the result of the similar die manipulation minted and released w/o fanfare before the quarters were released. Back in 2009, an established coin dealer and I had a conversation about coins in general. He asked what coins I was interested in and I answered the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters. He proceeded to say that he was hired to investigate the Denver Mint's minting of the WI. quarters and specifically the extra leaf events. He went on to say that the Mint had destroyed a number of the freshly minted quarters. I then asked him how many coins ($) were involved. He said, the Mint keep track of the amount destroyed by the pound as they used shovels to gather the coins. The IG Report Summary that the Treasury Dep't sent me stated that as many as 50,000 Wi. High Leaf quarters may have been minted before, during and after the Schuller Press Supervisor went to lunch on that Thanksgiving Weekend back in 2004. If several of the quarter coins were destroyed, then the number released to the public should be limited. The four major grading companies' Population figures total much less than 50,000 High Leaf quarters. Ten % of the POP numbers are probably regrades. Several Low Leaf coins were maybe destroyed at the same time. See my article in the April, 2024 edition of ANA's Numismatist. Thanks, Mark.
@CRHer700 said:
I would be inclined to believe that the telekinetic cow was unintended, however, it remains my view that the leaves and the dime gouge were either intentional, or some mint worker has some explaining to do about how a bolt fell haphazardly on three different dies at the same mint in the same year around the same time.
I don't recall anyone suggesting that bolts fell haphazardly on the dies, but rather that there may have been a systemic die handling problem at the time (we don't know what, exactly) that lead to several dies being damaged in a similar way. Despite not having a full explanation in hand for what that problem might have been, it still makes more sense than the alternative.
I still own my NGC MS 66 low and high leaf. They held their value consistently these 20 years. One of the better known errors along with extra trees Minnosota Quarter. Duke Ellington double die was another popular one in its day.
Back to the new info:
Is the mark on the coin that I posted the result of that shape ground off the die?
There is a lot more of the surface affected as well.
Thank you for offering an answer, @OAKSTAR, I hope that I know the difference, though.
We’ve been over that other stuff before.
If it is a dressed die, then it is evidence of a recurring problem; or the imps at the mint made another.
Is the coin relevant to the case? If it isn’t, we’ll let it drop.
You guys ain’t afraid to tell me me I’m wrong, c’mon—
@Creg said:
Back to the new info:
Is the mark on the coin that I posted the result of that shape ground off the die?
There is a lot more of the surface affected as well.
Thank you for offering an answer, @OAKSTAR, I hope that I know the difference, though.
We’ve been over that other stuff before.
If it is a dressed die, then it is evidence of a recurring problem; or the imps at the mint made another.
Is the coin relevant to the case? If it isn’t, we’ll let it drop.
You guys ain’t afraid to tell me me I’m wrong, c’mon—
On my phone it looks like it's depressed into the surface. If that's the case, it would either be struck through grease, or raised on the surface of the die (not really possible).
@Creg said:
Back to the new info:
Is the mark on the coin that I posted the result of that shape ground off the die?
There is a lot more of the surface affected as well.
Thank you for offering an answer, @OAKSTAR, I hope that I know the difference, though.
We’ve been over that other stuff before.
If it is a dressed die, then it is evidence of a recurring problem; or the imps at the mint made another.
Is the coin relevant to the case? If it isn’t, we’ll let it drop.
You guys ain’t afraid to tell me me I’m wrong, c’mon—
The known high/low leaf's are Denver Mint coins though the one you display appears to be a Philly Mint coin.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
I am a collector and dealer of various modern coins. Living in South Texas since the mid eighties, I was fortunate to be a part of the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarter events since 01/2005. There were things that I have been fortunate enough to know that I believe Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod's proof that the coins were the result of unauthorized die manipulation at the Denver Mint in late 2004 to be true. They had a very interesting presentation back in 08/2007 at the Summer ANA Show in Milwaukee. I believe that the 2004 D Extra Ear Dime (FS-101) was the result of the similar die manipulation minted and released w/o fanfare before the quarters were released. Back in 2009, an established coin dealer and I had a conversation about coins in general. He asked what coins I was interested in and I answered the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters. He proceeded to say that he was hired to investigate the Denver Mint's minting of the WI. quarters and specifically the extra leaf events. He went on to say that the Mint had destroyed a number of the freshly minted quarters. I then asked him how many coins ($) were involved. He said, the Mint keep track of the amount destroyed by the pound as they used shovels to gather the coins. The IG Report Summary that the Treasury Dep't sent me stated that as many as 50,000 Wi. High Leaf quarters may have been minted before, during and after the Schuller Press Supervisor went to lunch on that Thanksgiving Weekend back in 2004. If several of the quarter coins were destroyed, then the number released to the public should be limited. The four major grading companies' Population figures total much less than 50,000 High Leaf quarters. Ten % of the POP numbers are probably regrades. Several Low Leaf coins were maybe destroyed at the same time. See my article in the April, 2024 edition of ANA's Numismatist. Thanks, Mark.
That's quite a story @HIGHLOWLEAVES. So you're saying some dealer was hired to investigate the Denver Mint's minting of the WI? Really? Can you take a picture of that IG report the Treasury Dept. sent you and post it here? While you're at it, would you mind taking a screen shot of that April, 2024 edition of the ANA's Numismatist article? Thanks!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@CRHer700 said:
I would be inclined to believe that the telekinetic cow was unintended, however, it remains my view that the leaves and the dime gouge were either intentional, or some mint worker has some explaining to do about how a bolt fell haphazardly on three different dies at the same mint in the same year around the same time.
To expand upon something DCarr alluded to, there could have been a hundred other dies with various bolt damage, but the others may have been more obvious (damage to the open fields) and therefore caught before the dies entered production, or atleast before the first batch of coins was passed.
The Wisconsin quarters had the damage in a place that blended into the design. An extra leaf on the corn stalk wasn't noticed.
So, it might not have been that lightning struck twice in the same spot. Lighting might have struck a hundred times, but only two of them were allowed to be seen.
As for the dime, maybe the inspector thought it was an ear of corn. 🤔
Does it matter if intentional or not at the end of the day?
Yes. I think it does.
If it were unintentional it's just an error or perhaps a variety but if intentional it is a "type".
I meant from a value standpoint. Error dealers make money on purposeful Mint hijinks and unintentional. It seems to matter little from a value standpoint either occurence.
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
I am a collector and dealer of various modern coins. Living in South Texas since the mid eighties, I was fortunate to be a part of the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarter events since 01/2005. There were things that I have been fortunate enough to know that I believe Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod's proof that the coins were the result of unauthorized die manipulation at the Denver Mint in late 2004 to be true. They had a very interesting presentation back in 08/2007 at the Summer ANA Show in Milwaukee. I believe that the 2004 D Extra Ear Dime (FS-101) was the result of the similar die manipulation minted and released w/o fanfare before the quarters were released. Back in 2009, an established coin dealer and I had a conversation about coins in general. He asked what coins I was interested in and I answered the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters. He proceeded to say that he was hired to investigate the Denver Mint's minting of the WI. quarters and specifically the extra leaf events. He went on to say that the Mint had destroyed a number of the freshly minted quarters. I then asked him how many coins ($) were involved. He said, the Mint keep track of the amount destroyed by the pound as they used shovels to gather the coins. The IG Report Summary that the Treasury Dep't sent me stated that as many as 50,000 Wi. High Leaf quarters may have been minted before, during and after the Schuller Press Supervisor went to lunch on that Thanksgiving Weekend back in 2004. If several of the quarter coins were destroyed, then the number released to the public should be limited. The four major grading companies' Population figures total much less than 50,000 High Leaf quarters. Ten % of the POP numbers are probably regrades. Several Low Leaf coins were maybe destroyed at the same time. See my article in the April, 2024 edition of ANA's Numismatist. Thanks, Mark.
.
What did Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod offer as "proof" that it was done intentionally ?
@HIGHLOWLEAVES said:
I am a collector and dealer of various modern coins. Living in South Texas since the mid eighties, I was fortunate to be a part of the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarter events since 01/2005. There were things that I have been fortunate enough to know that I believe Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod's proof that the coins were the result of unauthorized die manipulation at the Denver Mint in late 2004 to be true. They had a very interesting presentation back in 08/2007 at the Summer ANA Show in Milwaukee. I believe that the 2004 D Extra Ear Dime (FS-101) was the result of the similar die manipulation minted and released w/o fanfare before the quarters were released. Back in 2009, an established coin dealer and I had a conversation about coins in general. He asked what coins I was interested in and I answered the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters. He proceeded to say that he was hired to investigate the Denver Mint's minting of the WI. quarters and specifically the extra leaf events. He went on to say that the Mint had destroyed a number of the freshly minted quarters. I then asked him how many coins ($) were involved. He said, the Mint keep track of the amount destroyed by the pound as they used shovels to gather the coins. The IG Report Summary that the Treasury Dep't sent me stated that as many as 50,000 Wi. High Leaf quarters may have been minted before, during and after the Schuller Press Supervisor went to lunch on that Thanksgiving Weekend back in 2004. If several of the quarter coins were destroyed, then the number released to the public should be limited. The four major grading companies' Population figures total much less than 50,000 High Leaf quarters. Ten % of the POP numbers are probably regrades. Several Low Leaf coins were maybe destroyed at the same time. See my article in the April, 2024 edition of ANA's Numismatist. Thanks, Mark.
.
What did Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod offer as "proof" that it was done intentionally ?
@OAKSTAR said:
Wouldn't it be remarkable if the mint employee/s responsible for this and these types of anomaly came forward in a public statement. Hi, my name is ... John Doe, I was the Chief Engraver at the United States Mint from....X to X (pick the dates) I retired on....(pick a date). On or about..(pick a date) I intentionally manipulated, altered and modified the dies on the 2004-D Wisconsin Quarters...
@OAKSTAR said:
Wouldn't it be remarkable if the mint employee/s responsible for this and these types of anomaly came forward in a public statement. Hi, my name is ... John Doe, I was the Chief Engraver at the United States Mint from....X to X (pick the dates) I retired on....(pick a date). On or about..(pick a date) I intentionally manipulated, altered and modified the dies on the 2004-D Wisconsin Quarters...
When they made the telekenetic cow, you mean?
It's not letting me enter my entire post. Don't know what's going on. It looks like I have to post it piecemeal.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@OAKSTAR said:
Wouldn't it be remarkable if the mint employee/s responsible for this and these types of anomaly came forward in a public statement. Hi, my name is ... John Doe, I was the Chief Engraver at the United States Mint from....X to X (pick the dates) I retired on....(pick a date). On or about..(pick a date) I intentionally manipulated, altered and modified the dies on the 2004-D Wisconsin Quarters...
Then he proceeds to explain why.... Maybe... "The dies were damaged. I altered the die design to prolong it's life. Or... I intentionally and maliciously changed the design because I didn't like it." This is all just wishful thinking on my part.
I don't know the names of the position that have access to the dies or who is in a position to tamper, alter, manipulate or modify the dies. Nor do I know the day to day operations of a typical day at the mint.
The designs of all coins go through a rigorous approval process.
Wouldn't it be a problem if the approved original design was altered or manipulated? @dcarr, if you were the artist or sculptor who originally designed and created it, wouldn't you question it?
It might be possible that the culprit didn't even know it happened.
@OAKSTAR said:
Wouldn't it be remarkable if the mint employee/s responsible for this and these types of anomaly came forward in a public statement. Hi, my name is ... John Doe, I was the Chief Engraver at the United States Mint from....X to X (pick the dates) I retired on....(pick a date). On or about..(pick a date) I intentionally manipulated, altered and modified the dies on the 2004-D Wisconsin Quarters...
Then he proceeds to explain why.... Maybe... "The dies were damaged. I altered the die design to prolong it's life. Or... I intentionally and maliciously changed the design because I didn't like it." This is all just wishful thinking on my part.
I don't know the names of the position that have access to the dies or who is in a position to tamper, alter, manipulate or modify the dies. Nor do I know the day to day operations of a typical day at the mint.
The designs of all coins go through a rigorous approval process.
Wouldn't it be a problem if the approved original design was altered or manipulated? @dcarr, if you were the artist or sculptor who originally designed and created it, wouldn't you question it?
Maybe it's just no big deal. Apparently the design/hair line of the Kennedy half dollar was a big deal to Mrs. Kennedy.
The above was the original post.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@OAKSTAR said:
Maybe it's just no big deal. Apparently the design/hair line of the Kennedy half dollar was a big deal to Mrs. Kennedy.
If you are referring to her supposed involvement with the Accented Hair variety, that is also a perfect example of a Breenian just-so story. Someone did a good job of debunking this recently, if I recall correctly, but either way, this is another one where common sense alone should tell you that it is not true.
There are the two plausible theories: horseplay at the Mint and hardware missteps. Both are not proven and may never but still plausible. Breen was making completely false crap up.
If you invoke Breen you assume these are not plausible circumstances.
@fathom said:
Why is Walter Breens name brought up here?
There are the two plausible theories: horseplay at the Mint and hardware missteps. Both are not proven and may never but still plausible. Breen was making completely false crap up.
If you invoke Breen you assume these are not plausible circumstances.
@fathom said:
Why is Walter Breens name brought up here?
There are the two plausible theories: horseplay at the Mint and hardware missteps. Both are not proven and may never but still plausible. Breen was making completely false crap up.
If you invoke Breen you assume these are not plausible circumstances.
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
@Clackamas1 said:
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
Where are they all today?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Comments
.
I believe that I have clearly shown that all it takes to make these impressions is a momentary impact from the end of a threaded bolt. We already know of three dies that this happened to. There may have been many more that had similar accidental damage. But only the gouges that happened to be camouflaged in the design escaped detection during visual examination.
.
.
Thinking about this, I have to consider another "Random Thought by DC" :
The Wisconsin state quarter has a cow, an ear of corn, and a cheese wheel on it.
How bad would that smell, especially after 20 years ?
.
.
I found this last night in a Loomis wrap—
edit: True View
@Creg - Looks like struck thru some grease.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Not grease, I thought that it was die cleaning marks. But, I posted not sure of what it is. . The little “leaf” does not match the other two leaves, though.
The two dies were also produced together, installed together, and their output released together.
Because of the way things are done this might still be coincidental but then add in the fact that the press that made the coins was restarted under "unusual" conditions while the operator was away and the odds of this being all tremendous coincidence seems to drop just about to zero. It certainly required intention to restart the press.
It's hard to believe large numbers of dies are scrapped out every year at any stage of production. You'd have more insights on this than I but it's also hard to imagine large numbers of bolts colliding with any number of dies.
I don’t imagine bolts bouncing, but wafting bits that cause those things. They look like shavings from the thread of a bolt.
How does it repeat? Fixing one problem, leaving another unfixed.
If I didn’t tune my VW well, vibration affected the adjustments for fuel, air, and spark over time. I fixed the worst in a hurry and I drove a while, then I have to address a problem again.
I think that dcarr explains it best.
Does it matter if intentional or not at the end of the day? Still a cool naked eye variety with the speculation surrounding Mint hijinks. People have made a decent living on Mint hijinks, intentional or not collectors want these.
No, but it's bad when misinformation spreads from one collector to another. What's much worse is when misinformation is disseminated from official sources. We've made some progress from the Walter Breen era of passing unsupported nonsense off as fact, but we haven't completely left it behind.
I'll always believe these were created intentionally. No disrespect to anyone here, but it's just too much of a coincidence for this guy.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Do you believe that an extra corn leaf was intentionally placed on Roosevelt's ear, or was that a coincidence?
Since leaves do not typically grow on human ears, probably a coincidence? 😆 Just because similar marks appear on different coin dies, even in the same year, does not mean that the tool that caused them can't be used intentionally to create a variety. The alignment was perfect, and it happened twice in the same batch.
Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm not buying it.
Just for giggles, can you post the dime you are referencing? I've seen it, but not in a long time.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Come on man. If a nail can bounce into a striking chamber, why not a bolt? 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I don't want to speak for @DCW but I don't believe he means "ALL" of these types of weird anomalies. The speared eagles and speared bison's might not have been intentional.
This 2007-P Washington $ Elongated Ray looks intentional.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
We had a compelling discussion about this earlier in this very thread. Why not read it; it may open your eyes. I posted the image below, showing that the relative size and location of the "extra leaf" on Roosevelt's ear matches the "extra leaf" quarters almost exactly. You'll see my "telekenetic cow" variety in there as well for good measure. Do you think the telekenetic cow was created intentionally?
Not impressed with the telekinetic cow, sorry. I don't think every anomaly produced on a coin die is intentional. We have die breaks, cuds, chips, scratched, etc.
Dan is obviously the man to speak on things occurring at a Mint, because he operates one. I just think, he's proven it could have been a bolt used to create the leaf, not that it was accidental. We'll never know for sure, unless someone comes forward and admits to it.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I agree with you when you said it is probably a coincidence that there is an extra corn leaf on Roosevelt's ear. The same reasoning applies for why it is probably a coincidence on the quarters (telekenetic cow included).
I would be inclined to believe that the telekinetic cow was unintended, however, it remains my view that the leaves and the dime gouge were either intentional, or some mint worker has some explaining to do about how a bolt fell haphazardly on three different dies at the same mint in the same year around the same time.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
Yes. I think it does.
If it were unintentional it's just an error or perhaps a variety but if intentional it is a "type".
I am a collector and dealer of various modern coins. Living in South Texas since the mid eighties, I was fortunate to be a part of the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarter events since 01/2005. There were things that I have been fortunate enough to know that I believe Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod's proof that the coins were the result of unauthorized die manipulation at the Denver Mint in late 2004 to be true. They had a very interesting presentation back in 08/2007 at the Summer ANA Show in Milwaukee. I believe that the 2004 D Extra Ear Dime (FS-101) was the result of the similar die manipulation minted and released w/o fanfare before the quarters were released. Back in 2009, an established coin dealer and I had a conversation about coins in general. He asked what coins I was interested in and I answered the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters. He proceeded to say that he was hired to investigate the Denver Mint's minting of the WI. quarters and specifically the extra leaf events. He went on to say that the Mint had destroyed a number of the freshly minted quarters. I then asked him how many coins ($) were involved. He said, the Mint keep track of the amount destroyed by the pound as they used shovels to gather the coins. The IG Report Summary that the Treasury Dep't sent me stated that as many as 50,000 Wi. High Leaf quarters may have been minted before, during and after the Schuller Press Supervisor went to lunch on that Thanksgiving Weekend back in 2004. If several of the quarter coins were destroyed, then the number released to the public should be limited. The four major grading companies' Population figures total much less than 50,000 High Leaf quarters. Ten % of the POP numbers are probably regrades. Several Low Leaf coins were maybe destroyed at the same time. See my article in the April, 2024 edition of ANA's Numismatist. Thanks, Mark.
I don't recall anyone suggesting that bolts fell haphazardly on the dies, but rather that there may have been a systemic die handling problem at the time (we don't know what, exactly) that lead to several dies being damaged in a similar way. Despite not having a full explanation in hand for what that problem might have been, it still makes more sense than the alternative.
I still own my NGC MS 66 low and high leaf. They held their value consistently these 20 years. One of the better known errors along with extra trees Minnosota Quarter. Duke Ellington double die was another popular one in its day.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/880230/freshly-graded-2009-d-dc-ddr/p1
Box of 20
Back to the new info:
Is the mark on the coin that I posted the result of that shape ground off the die?
There is a lot more of the surface affected as well.
Thank you for offering an answer, @OAKSTAR, I hope that I know the difference, though.
We’ve been over that other stuff before.
If it is a dressed die, then it is evidence of a recurring problem; or the imps at the mint made another.
Is the coin relevant to the case? If it isn’t, we’ll let it drop.
You guys ain’t afraid to tell me me I’m wrong, c’mon—
@Creg - It might be more helpful to start a separate for that coin. You'll probably get more feedback.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
On my phone it looks like it's depressed into the surface. If that's the case, it would either be struck through grease, or raised on the surface of the die (not really possible).
The known high/low leaf's are Denver Mint coins though the one you display appears to be a Philly Mint coin.
That's quite a story @HIGHLOWLEAVES. So you're saying some dealer was hired to investigate the Denver Mint's minting of the WI? Really? Can you take a picture of that IG report the Treasury Dept. sent you and post it here? While you're at it, would you mind taking a screen shot of that April, 2024 edition of the ANA's Numismatist article? Thanks!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Thank you, @Ljenkins11—
The coin is not relevant to the case!
Typical Philly Mint product.
Boy, do I feel dumb!
To expand upon something DCarr alluded to, there could have been a hundred other dies with various bolt damage, but the others may have been more obvious (damage to the open fields) and therefore caught before the dies entered production, or atleast before the first batch of coins was passed.
The Wisconsin quarters had the damage in a place that blended into the design. An extra leaf on the corn stalk wasn't noticed.
So, it might not have been that lightning struck twice in the same spot. Lighting might have struck a hundred times, but only two of them were allowed to be seen.
As for the dime, maybe the inspector thought it was an ear of corn. 🤔
Don't feel dumb, you're doing what the hobby needs... keep searching and have fun!
Good one!
I should probably rename this thread variety, error, anomaly something. It's gone a little off track.
Oh well, here's another little something I found.... 🤣 😂 I think they're calling it a DDR.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I meant from a value standpoint. Error dealers make money on purposeful Mint hijinks and unintentional. It seems to matter little from a value standpoint either occurence.
That's the indoor plumbing variety, big flex back in the day when you had an indoor pump.
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What did Rick Snow and Chris Pilliod offer as "proof" that it was done intentionally ?
.
they determined their theory was indeed proof
When they made the telekenetic cow, you mean?
It's not letting me enter my entire post. Don't know what's going on. It looks like I have to post it piecemeal.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
It might be possible that the culprit didn't even know it happened.
Jeezzzzz!!!! Now the entire post went away!!! I don't get?!?!?!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Like I said, we've made some progress from the Walter Breen era, but we haven't completely left it behind, unfortunately.
Edit.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
The above was the original post.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
If you are referring to her supposed involvement with the Accented Hair variety, that is also a perfect example of a Breenian just-so story. Someone did a good job of debunking this recently, if I recall correctly, but either way, this is another one where common sense alone should tell you that it is not true.
Why is Walter Breens name brought up here?
There are the two plausible theories: horseplay at the Mint and hardware missteps. Both are not proven and may never but still plausible. Breen was making completely false crap up.
If you invoke Breen you assume these are not plausible circumstances.
You're making assumptions about my assumptions.
Who was the king of assumptions?
Breen.
I remember when these came out. Some guy on Ebay had a BU roll with one of the end roll coins being an extra leaf. I gambled and bought it for like $750. It turns out it had like 17 of these in the roll with both varieties. Big score.
Where are they all today?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )