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Opinions Wanted On WLH; PVC? Verdigris? Other?

TomBTomB Posts: 20,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

Disclaimer: I don't own this coin and am not in the market to buy it, but I found this image online and want to know what others think of the reverse of this WLH. I imagine that if you right-click and take the option for opening the image in a new tab that it will show up much larger.

Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

image

Comments

  • nwcoastnwcoast Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2024 12:32AM

    At first glance it appears to be a lovely coin. However, upon closer inspection, there are some troubling dark green spots, especially evident on the right leg. Furthermore, smaller dark green spots can be seen scattered over several other regions of both the wings and fields.
    PVC?
    I have some very similar coins, in baths now.
    We’ll see what they turn out like!

    I thought verdigris mostly affected copper and nickel’s (which have some components of copper.
    It does look more like verdigris I’ve seen on some of my copper and I suspect that’s a possibility given the copper presence in the 10% composition on these coins.

    I’d be curious what other, more experienced experts think.

    Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I officially do not know. But, for me, I would think it was PVC.

    A couple of thoughts. If the coin was tilted around and maybe up on edge would any other 'film' color show up? To me it looks otherwise good but will note what I think is light tone. Is it?

    Next thought, in the cropped image those larger spots look kind of shiny. The few times I have had this look on a coin in hand those shiny spots had, what I call, turned hard. They don't want to come off (I tried). I wonder if the coin could have been soaked in acetone and removed the PVC except left the hard blobs (if that is what they are as there are a bunch of them).

    Back to, I officially don't know. Maybe it is 'Other'. :)
    .
    .

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like verdigris. If it were PVC, a soak in acetone would remove it without any damage to this coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not PVC. Corrosion. [Verdigris if you wish. ]

  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2024 6:22AM

    How about this coin?

    Note the light spots around the green crystals. This is very common on coins with these green crystals and underneath black crud. It looks like damage to me.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We are all in the same boat looking at the images- this is likely verdigris. If one had the coin, it could be probed with a tooth pick- followed by a Q-tip. The biggest concern that I have is whether the verdigris is still active. Based on the color, it seems to still be active in some spots and not others. And brings us to the question as to whether some of the smaller spots that appear more black than green are carbon spots. I am not suggesting they are... just not ruling out the possibility.

    Is the coin graded? I am asking because the generation of the slab will help define when it may have been graded and that might help further define the progression of the verdigris and how serious it might be.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2024 6:58AM

    It’s a low end coin at best. Even on first glance it’s a dog - darkish toning, lots of black spots. Needs a dip! Possibly it went bad in the holder. Better move them quickly lol. It’s what many call a Zero - simply listed at Zero on the appraisal calculation detail.

    Maybe they kept it in a hot garage. What matters is it’s unacceptable to me. Good luck in any conservation attempt. Of course some dunce might hawk it as “original.”

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks like blue ink

    LCoopie = Les
  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,805 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whatever it is, it looks like it's baked into the surface. Wonder what the obv looks like? Plus a nice hit above the talons.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Vulcan blood.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,966 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's not PVC but the spots are indeed distracting.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2024 12:28PM

    @Barberian said:
    How about this coin?

    Note the light spots around the green crystals. This is very common on coins with these green crystals and underneath black crud. It looks like damage to me.

    .

    Green wax buildup from storage in an old leather pouch. Acetone should easily take it right off.

    .

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,993 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    Disclaimer: I don't own this coin and am not in the market to buy it, but I found this image online and want to know what others think of the reverse of this WLH. I imagine that if you right-click and take the option for opening the image in a new tab that it will show up much larger.

    It looks like an early date (1916 ?).

    Some of the green looks like it is just sitting on the surface.
    Other green blobs appear to be down inside little pits.
    I think most of it may be planchet impurity spots that corroded a little bit while the normal 90% silver alloy did not.

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting comments! I initially attributed the green spots to PVC but after reading through the comments, I'm not so sure now. I'd definitely pursue an acetone bath... hopefully, that might be enough...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

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  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    After your acetone bath, if not satisfactory, try a 3-6 month evoo soak. I have had success with many copper coins removing verdigris to an extent. If you plan on keeping the coin or selling it. I would be afraid that selling it from OP's photos would only create a return after the buyer bought it and enlarged it. Good luck.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @Barberian said:
    How about this coin?

    Note the light spots around the green crystals. This is very common on coins with these green crystals and underneath black crud. It looks like damage to me.

    .

    Green wax buildup from storage in an old leather pouch. Acetone should easily take it right off.

    .

    I agree. Under the scope I take a sliver of wood and push it off. NOTE this green stuff is different from the WLH in the OP. it is very common on vintage coins especially on copper where it is usually combined with dirt. That type of debris (usually oils and dirt) is treated differently.

  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @TomB said:
    Disclaimer: I don't own this coin and am not in the market to buy it, but I found this image online and want to know what others think of the reverse of this WLH. I imagine that if you right-click and take the option for opening the image in a new tab that it will show up much larger.

    It looks like an early date (1916 ?).

    Some of the green looks like it is just sitting on the surface.
    Other green blobs appear to be down inside little pits.
    I think most of it may be planchet impurity spots that corroded a little bit while the normal 90% silver alloy did not.

    The spots on this coin are corrosion. They are hard. IF they are chipped off with the wood sliver it seaves a black spot. This coin needs conservation and can be fixed in such a way that no one except its owner will know they are there. That is the difference between professional conservation by a "White Hat" coin doctor and some ham-fisted clown's spot removal scratches. B)

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Possible corrosion.

  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2024 4:43PM

    @Insider3 said:

    @dcarr said:

    @Barberian said:
    How about this coin?

    Note the light spots around the green crystals. This is very common on coins with these green crystals and underneath black crud. It looks like damage to me.

    .

    Green wax buildup from storage in an old leather pouch. Acetone should easily take it right off.

    .

    I agree. Under the scope I take a sliver of wood and push it off. NOTE this green stuff is different from the WLH in the OP. it is very common on vintage coins especially on copper where it is usually combined with dirt. That type of debris (usually oils and dirt) is treated differently.

    I respectfully disagree based upon my encountering and removing these crystals from many coins in my collection and finding lighter, etched surfaces and even micropitting under them. Coin after coin with black gunk and/or green crystals. I've got to think about this more.

    Perhaps there's more than one green thing on coins - benign green wax and more active cupric salts? I'm

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @Barberian said:

    @Insider3 said:

    @dcarr said:

    @Barberian said:
    How about this coin?

    Note the light spots around the green crystals. This is very common on coins with these green crystals and underneath black crud. It looks like damage to me.

    .

    Green wax buildup from storage in an old leather pouch. Acetone should easily take it right off.

    .

    I agree. Under the scope I take a sliver of wood and push it off. NOTE this green stuff is different from the WLH in the OP. it is very common on vintage coins especially on copper where it is usually combined with dirt. That type of debris (usually oils and dirt) is treated differently.

    I respectfully disagree based upon my encountering and removing these crystals from many coins in my collection and finding lighter, etched surfaces and even micropitting under them. Coin after coin with black gunk and/or green crystals. I've got to think about this more.

    Perhaps there's more than one green thing on coins - benign green wax and more active cupric salts? I'm

    Thanks for your comments. I'm not a chemist. I just play one at our company. That's why I don't care what the stuff is. I have had very good success removing all sorts of stuff that gets on coins. I remove the dark green stuff on the wing of that coin at least two or three dozen times a day at no charge to our customers. This same SOFT green crud is often found on incuse $5 and $2 1/2 gold. If you wish a before and after image I'll post a few if you and other members "agree" that I should. B)

  • RobertScotLoverRobertScotLover Posts: 589 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2024 5:38PM

    This is very common I see this hard crystal like green nodules on numerous old coinage, all typically slabbed by all the tpg's as well as caced and in higher grades. But whenever I find them they are small in size, I would imagine it wouldn't get the green sticker if it were large in size. The new that I had owned and sold have never bothered me not anybody else, in fact nobody whom I sold mine to every mentioned anything about it

  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @Barberian said:

    " I respectfully disagree based upon my encountering and _ removing these crystals from many coins in my collection and finding lighter, etched surfaces and even micropitting under them. _ Coin after coin with black gunk and/or green crystals. I've got to think about this more."

    PS I forgot to add that what you are removing that is leaving an etched "pit" is the HARD GREEN/BLACK corrosion spots like those on the OP's half dollar.

  • zer0manzer0man Posts: 34 ✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @Barberian said:

    @Insider3 said:

    @dcarr said:

    @Barberian said:
    How about this coin?

    Note the light spots around the green crystals. This is very common on coins with these green crystals and underneath black crud. It looks like damage to me.

    .

    Green wax buildup from storage in an old leather pouch. Acetone should easily take it right off.

    .

    I agree. Under the scope I take a sliver of wood and push it off. NOTE this green stuff is different from the WLH in the OP. it is very common on vintage coins especially on copper where it is usually combined with dirt. That type of debris (usually oils and dirt) is treated differently.

    I respectfully disagree based upon my encountering and removing these crystals from many coins in my collection and finding lighter, etched surfaces and even micropitting under them. Coin after coin with black gunk and/or green crystals. I've got to think about this more.

    Perhaps there's more than one green thing on coins - benign green wax and more active cupric salts? I'm

    Thanks for your comments. I'm not a chemist. I just play one at our company. That's why I don't care what the stuff is. I have had very good success removing all sorts of stuff that gets on coins. I remove the dark green stuff on the wing of that coin at least two or three dozen times a day at no charge to our customers. This same SOFT green crud is often found on incuse $5 and $2 1/2 gold. If you wish a before and after image I'll post a few if you and other members "agree" that I should. B)

    Pics would be great, thanks!

    DOG acolyte

  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @Barberian said:

    @Insider3 said:

    @dcarr said:

    @Barberian said:
    How about this coin?

    Note the light spots around the green crystals. This is very common on coins with these green crystals and underneath black crud. It looks like damage to me.

    .

    Green wax buildup from storage in an old leather pouch. Acetone should easily take it right off.

    .

    I agree. Under the scope I take a sliver of wood and push it off. NOTE this green stuff is different from the WLH in the OP. it is very common on vintage coins especially on copper where it is usually combined with dirt. That type of debris (usually oils and dirt) is treated differently.

    I respectfully disagree based upon my encountering and removing these crystals from many coins in my collection and finding lighter, etched surfaces and even micropitting under them. Coin after coin with black gunk and/or green crystals. I've got to think about this more.

    Perhaps there's more than one green thing on coins - benign green wax and more active cupric salts? I'm

    Thanks for your comments. I'm not a chemist. I just play one at our company. That's why I don't care what the stuff is. I have had very good success removing all sorts of stuff that gets on coins. I remove the dark green stuff on the wing of that coin at least two or three dozen times a day at no charge to our customers. This same SOFT green crud is often found on incuse $5 and $2 1/2 gold. If you wish a before and after image I'll post a few if you and other members "agree" that I should. B)

    I like to use a cat whisker for those jobs. How do you remove the dark, waxy crud that often is found around the devices and lettering? This coin has both black, waxy crud as well as green crystals near the left wing tip and between the U and the dentils. The latter green crystal fills a pit near the rim. I've soaked the coin in acetone overnight and worked it a bit with a cat whisker. I'm considering using mineral oil to penetrate the crud and lift it off with a fine paintbrush. What do you think will remove this crud.

    Sure, I'd like to see some photos.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just remember, green is not the natural colour of raw metal. If it's "green", then that green-ness had to come from somewhere, and unless you're in the habit of crushing fresh plant leaves and smearing chlorophyll all over your coins, then the most obvious source of green is the copper and/or nickel in the metal of the coin. So a pile of "green stuff" on a coin, whether caused by PVC, leather, or battery acid, will mean there's some kind of chemical reaction that's happened and dissolved some of the copper out of your coin. This will inevitably damage the coin's surface, at a microscopic level at least. Take the green stuff away and this damage will become more evident. Whether that damage is visible to the naked eye, or even under a loupe, will depend on the degree of corrosion that has taken place but as a general rule, the more green it appears on the surface, the worse the pitting will be underneath.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
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