Why does it matter to you when a coin was graded and encapsulated?
MFeld
Posts: 13,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is it because of considerations regarding the stability of the coin’s surfaces, the chances of the coin being of better (or worse) than average quality for the grade and/or other reasons?
Thank you in advance for your participation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
7
Comments
Well, if it’s copper and in an old green holder, then you know it’s stable and less likely to go bad in the holder. And if is a new gold shield it likely has a true view available.
Mr_Spud
Yes. when it was graded matters to me. No, don’t care about the surface stability.
I just like the older vintage slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
For myself, it would be about the surface condition. I have a copper coin labeled as red/brown that is no longer red/brown in an older holder. I also have some coins that have developed the green sheen that I think is PVC that are in newer holders. It seems that it doesn't matter to me what the holder era is, the coin is what matters to me.
Tonedeaf is a nickname given to me in reference to my guitar playing ability.
I also like coins in slabs from the pre-prong era, so that’s another factor for me too.
Mr_Spud
I much prefer newer holders with TVs and clear prongs (and consistency with my other slabs for the ole OCD).
I'm not concerned with surfaces or grades due to holder age, hopefully my eyes and/or the eyes of other trusted dealers/collectors are good enough to overcome any grading inconsistencies.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
It’s primarily about the coin and the price.
I do like pre-33 gold in OGHs though, but only because the colors seem to complement each other so well.
I could care less.
I always buy the "coin"
I always know what I am buying.
Oooh, good question Mark.
For me, this actually matters quite a bit. Since I specialize in CAM 1936-1942 Proofs, the grading of those coins can often be tighter or looser, based on the grading teams and finalizers and how they see the Proofs and what makes a true CAM for the era.
For example, NGC is really tight on these coins right now, and have been for the last two years. PCGS is about as loose on them right now as I've ever seen, but this was a super quick shift from them being tight as well about a year ago. These swings between loose and tight can happen about every slab generation, and even within a slab generation. Being able to get an idea of whether or not a coin was graded in a "tight" era of grading for this particular series can help you get a better example.
It's just another factor for me when images of these coins often aren't the best.
Coin Photographer.
There is definitely something to be said for an older holder in that potential improper dip residue might be obvious with the passage of time.
The coin could have worsened in the holder from reaction to the atmosphere from the time of grading. Unattractive black spots, dark areas, ugly tarnish, etc. accumulated in the holder over time.
To some extent, time of grading/slabbing does not matter to me a much as CAC seeing it and approving it. CAC eyes means they have evaluated the surfaces for all of the things that matter. HST, older is better with a CAC sticker on it bc it likely means it has been stable in the slab with that condition for all of that time prior to CAC evaluation. Thinkin' OGH and Fatties and older gen slabs...................
Would it make me feel better if I knew?....Nope!
To late! 🤬 😫 😖
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
This is going to sound silly, yet for me it is the nastolgia of a simpler more pure time in collecting. The mid 80s to the mid 90s was a wonderful time to go to coin shows and to talk directly with fellow collectors and dealers. Cell phones were in their infancy and you didn't see people hunched over looking at their small screens.
People were more engaging and perhaps even a bit more kind. Older graded coins remind me of this.
It's like hearing a song from the 80s. It just takes me back.
When I look upon the older slabs if gives me a good and a warm feeling. (Full disclosure: raw coins in older albums also provide this relaxing mood too.)
It's all about perception. I just feel better picking up and looking at classic coins in the older slabs.
Grading simply wasn't as "mass produced" as it seems to be today.
peacockcoins
Where’s the “Strongly Disagree” option when I want it ?😉
I don’t think your post sounded the least bit silly! In fact, it resonated very strongly with me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks.
My caveat was coached in the fact there are many collectors here perhaps under the age of 40, who may then preceive my response as the ramblings of a 'boomer' collector.
peacockcoins
I love to find my coins in the older holders, partly for the security that the surfaces would most likely have turned or be showing any doctoring done in the past. And of course, as a copper collector a stable full red or red brown coin that still looks full red or red brown give me some level of security that the coin has likely been cared for and stored well up to this point. Thirdly I do love the old holders, they just call to me.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Good topic, Mark. It's no secret I like old holders for their collectability, integrity and grading standards. When I can purchase a thirty year old unstickered holder with an old copper coin and both JA and DB agree it still retains the original color, that's proof enough for me:
Tim
>
Ouch ... that piece must hurt. I wonder if it would have held up better outside of the slab?
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
This question seems reasonable to ask. It simply becomes a more complicated question based on the series and I will limit my answer solely to US coinage. And my response is equally complicated. And I will do my best to be direct and to the point.
US Gold... it matters and earlier is better. And this extends to all gold especially early and no motto gold. And then there is the whole CACG influence. So this is where knowledge and grading skills matter. We saw the post about the the so-called MS66 coins that just did not meet expectations. And there may be reasons for this that require an in hand review to recognize the difference at that level'.
Morgan Dollars... It matters if the collector is seeking DMPL or PL examples... the goal posts have changed and getting a DMPL 30 years ago is simply different than today- My apologies but I had nothing to do with moving the goal posts.
Copper... I will differ to the copper crowd on on this. I would merely suggest that red has several shades and those shades are like art... And reasonable minds may differ.
As for other coins and series... Sadly the ship has sailed. I would suggest it matters and it matters for so many reasons which in my mind are self evident.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
One other reason is the rarity of a high grade in a really old holder. One example is the 1917 Walker I sold back in 2016. It had cachet because it was one of the finest Walkers from the first couple years of production. One clear indicator of this was that all the way back in 80s/early 90s, it was graded MS67 when those grades were pretty much unheard of in early Walkers.
Unfortunately, the buyer cracked it out, probably trying to see if he could get a +.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@braddick God I hate to say it, but we kind of are "boomer's" to the 40 and under set!
Loved your post.
@MFeld For many of the same reasons of that nostalgia to a simpler time, but there is a specific range of old NGC holders when a certain team was there that seems to always be a little closer to spot on and even a bit conservative.
When was your tenure again?
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I took a chance with it several years ago and lost. It wasn't a big ticket item. I couldn't see the damage/corrosion from the sellers pictures but I likes the slab. See what happens when you buy the slab and not the coin! 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
If anything I look a bit more carefully at early holders. I've seen enough of them, especially rattlers, that have not aged well, probably due to poor storage or mishandling. Otherwise I'm pretty agnostic, although I do like the retro look of some of the early holders.
It doesn’t matter to me who, what, or when a coin was graded. I will buy a coin if I like it. There is far too much inconsistency when it comes to grading state coppers with the exception being those struck in Massachusetts.
Isn't nastolgia when you long for a nastier time?
Alrighty you Whippersnapper.
Go to your room.
peacockcoins
Stability
With a coin that is slabbed, I know the grade and feeling it is better protected thani f I kept it raw. Don't think that all my coins are grade (I not rich), but if it is a common coin in bad condition, then I put it in a 2X2. I like the raw coins sometimes even more than when they are graded too.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
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My number one thing is authenticity.
I, too, like the nostalgia of the old holders, I like the aesthetics of the old holders, and definitely the stability on the red copper.
However, the new holders look exceptionally nice, the trueviews are good. Truthfully, I like all generations of holder, they all have a place in my collection.
Probably the best looking holder is the OGH.
Look at how classic this looks:
But this looks really nice as well:
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I hate the prongs, but I hate the full circles even more. At least with the prongs, I can see most of the edges and rims of my small coins. I have had numerous coins reholdered to get the prongs, just so I can see more of the coins. Sometimes important attribution points are at the extremities.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Considering what I collect, my primary collection was all graded before 1990. Other than that, any other coins I evaluate the coin itself regardless of when it was graded.
I have a 2009 Ultra High Relief Double Eagle. Some time after release (a year maybe) at least one TPG started giving this coin a PL designation vs the MS. The PL gets a significant premium over the MS and I'd like to know if the coin was considered for PL when it was encapsulated. PCGS will not share the date of encapsulation with me because I'm not the one who had it certified and slabbed. I don't want to resubmit for suffix change if it already went thru the process and data is limited on telling the difference myself. It answers your question but probably doesn't fit the data set you're looking for,
USAF veteran 1984-2005
To me, it doesnt matter when a coin was graded, rather "how". Enter CAC, now CACG.
It matters to me because there is little to no dispute that you possess a known condition coin.
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Only for RD or RB copper. Other than that it does not matter. The coin matters.
Big turnoff is older holders that are scratched or otherwise damaged.
I like the older holders. Plus, I like the older holders, because other collectors prefer them. I like to own what others covet. That is part of the collecting fun.
Without reading other responses....
I cannot pretend to have any knowledge that would inform a decision on whether or not to like, e.g., OGH. I see that people do like the old holders, but I don't care.
Guarantee Authenticity, and then to try and preserve the condition of the coin.....
TC71
I recall the songs from the 50's and 60's...
It is for my heirs. Plain and simple. I also appreciate them, especially RD copper not turning.
Easy. I know I'm not getting ripped off. If I had only bought graded coins in the first place (before the big price increases of the eighties) I would have made a killing. In stead, when I decided to cash in for big profits the prices had got to, I learned the hard way I had bought overgraded junk! Looking back, In one way was lucky. The dealer took pity on me and my wife and we got a lesson about AU's, cleaning, etc comparing his coins to mine. Years later, I got the itch again;, joined the ANA; took some seminars; READ THE BOOKS and grading columns; work with the same dealer's son; etc. Now, I feel I can DEBATE both sides and all the angles of coin grading from that of a beginner to a coin dealer! I may be wrong but I'm sticking to my comments unless proven incorrect.
I like the OGH and SWH of pcgs and anacs merely for aesthetics. They were the holders used when I first started being concerned regarding holdered coins. I think some of them hold coins with a stricter grade outcome and may or may not upgrade now. Though that is not the reason as I have never attempted the upgrade game. The old NGC white holders with green fonts also, yet I never had many of them.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Though I’m not at all interested in collecting slabs and their various generations, I am more comfortable buying a coin, especially older copper, which has been encapsulated for a longer period of time in an older holder.
I view it as a more stable and lower risk purchase due to the time and stability over time that has already elapsed.
With bright silver, in a newer holder, I have no assurances that it hasn’t been dipped and not rinsed properly. With toned and more original looking pieces, I have much less concern with the newer holders.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
I have always been a big fan of the small white ANAC holders. They are the only type of holder I will cough up a little extra cash for. It isn't any sentimental thing . I have always thought they are the perfect way to slab a coin. Period.
Also, it was only this fall that I actually paid any attention to when coins were slabbed. I found out that there are picture/descriptive guides at the TPG websites of the different ages of slabs, so I went and checked out the "age" of my current slabs. Fun to learn but not super important. James
You must be talking about and referring to the all recognizable and identifiable holder know as the "soap bar" slab.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I got sick of negotiating the additional steps.
You used to have to negotiate the grade, quality and price. Auction records only helped the people with the time to keep their finger on the pulse of the hobby as what one catalog called an XF might not be what another did.
TPG killed two birds with one stone in settling how coins would be stored long term and in creating a comparable pricing standard. While their is a thousand outlying caveats, that is a marketed improvement from the previous millions
I misread the question, somewhat. The date doesn’t matter to me but other collectors appetite for unavailable holders factors into my evaluations. While surface stability is a thing as anyone who has a coin turn can attest, I think the nature of collectors who want things, quality and combos others can have, it will always drive the selections of rare combos. It’s in her blood, it was bound to spread to the holder as well. Most of the justifications are merely factors to decide which combo is preferred
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
The older the holder the better as far as I'm concerned, especially for copper. So yes, I wouldn't mind seeing the date a coin was professionally graded.
Dave