The most interesting part of this story is that the slabs do not appear to be tamped with, and only the newly graded slabs have been deactivated except for the Brett. The Yaz, Brett, and the Bench are all older grades but are in newer slabs, so they have supposedly been at PSA pretty recently. I really don't know what to make of it.
PSA 3 1963 Rose 68588688 was intentionally DEACTIVATED in the PSA database previously sold for $1150
PSA 5 1962 Mantle 65273778 was intentionally DEACTIVATED in the PSA database previously sold for $510
PSA 8.5 1968 Bench 25827895 Certainly not an 8.5 in this slab sold for $1825
PSA 6.5 1963 Rose 67673377 was intentionally DEACTIVATED in the PSA database previously sold for $2676
PSA 8 1975 Brett 66026392 does not match the picture in the PSA database sold for $635
PSA 8 1960 Yastrzemski 16882758 visibly creased front left side sold for $2222
I don't have a dog in this fight, or rather one that I'm going to express. I just wanted to point out that the eBay links are going to go bad shortly. If any of the posters want their posts to be meaningful in several months, then they should use pictures rather than links.
I also do not see any signs of tampering from the images. ie, no frosting at the edges of the slabs. there is no way they were graded at PSA. they must be counterfeit slabs? no?
scary proposition. I hope this does not become widespread.
There's nothing proprietary or novel about the plastics or the ultrasonic welding process and there are plenty of fake slabs. The security is included in the label, but as the slab can be destroyed without destroying the label you have quite the loop-hole.
If at 12th you don't succeed... time to hire better engineers. Just make it so that the label cannot be removed nondestructively from the plastics. Jokes aside. There are many inexpensive options.
@craig44 said:
I also do not see any signs of tampering from the images. ie, no frosting at the edges of the slabs. there is no way they were graded at PSA. they must be counterfeit slabs? no?
scary proposition. I hope this does not become widespread.
Wow. Perfect counterfeit slabs and labels. That is scary.
Likely scenario. These are fake slabs using a real cert #, however real slab exists with same PSA cert # in someone’s collection. These don’t pass authentication. PSA destroys the holders and possibly the cards. Buyer gets money back from seller. Nobody investigates. If seller lists more such cards they will be banned from EBay. None of those things will be known to us.
This is more common than we think and why EBay decided to authenticate the slabs and PSA took the job to do just that. If we buy the card not the holder it is something we should not get duped on unless people like this start putting PSA 7s in PSA 8 slabs.
Now on ultra-modern this is an easy scam. Take a PSA 9 reslab as a 10, avoid EBay as a sales platform. Rinse and Repeat. As long as original 10 not on the registry the buyer will never know.
Go to aliexpress or alibaba and you can find endless amounts of blank slabs available. (for coins too)
Find one that is the most similar to a PSA slab.
Contact the manufacturer and order in bulk to have a "PSA" embossed on it and you're done.
Use a little superglue or buy a sonic welder for a few grand.
You are now a pro counterfeiter.
PSA really needs to do what TAG grading does to deter counterfeiting.
"TAG believes the card's appearance should speak for itself.
Say goodbye to distracting paper flips. Instead, the TAG grades
and data are permanently inscribed directly inside the slab."
1963 Topps Pete Rose Rookie Card RC #537 Rookie Stars Graded PSA 6.5 EX - MINT +
New (Other)
$2,676.00
38 bids
+$6.15 shipping
View similar active items
1963 Topps Pete Rose Rookie Card RC #537 Rookie Stars Graded PSA 3 Very Good
New (Other)
$1,150.00
40 bids
+$5.80 shipping
Authenticity Guarantee
View similar active items
Does anyone else see yet another problem with one of these cards?
One of them will not have to go through the Authenticity Guarantee. Someone is going to be out $2682.15 very soon.
The 75 Brett....Certification number 66026392 has been temporarily DEACTIVATED as a precaution due to its use on a known counterfeit in the market. Please contact the Customer Request Center (CRC) at PSACRC@collectors.com if you own the item or call (800) 325-1121 for further information.
The Yastrzemski & Bench cards remain in the database and have no photos as they are older grades. The 2 Rose cards and the 62 Mantle are still intentionally deactivated.
@gameusedhoop said:
1963 Topps Pete Rose Rookie Card RC #537 Rookie Stars Graded PSA 6.5 EX - MINT +
New (Other)
$2,676.00
38 bids
+$6.15 shipping
View similar active items
1963 Topps Pete Rose Rookie Card RC #537 Rookie Stars Graded PSA 3 Very Good
New (Other)
$1,150.00
40 bids
+$5.80 shipping
Authenticity Guarantee
View similar active items
Does anyone else see yet another problem with one of these cards?
One of them will not have to go through the Authenticity Guarantee. Someone is going to be out $2682.15 very soon.
In the overall scheme of the hobby perhaps for the best the buyer has been criminally swindled. Those who learn that type of valuable lesson are likley to spread the word thus helping to prevent others from making same mistake.
Hope the rube does not simply exit the hobby without saying a word.
Some feel the phrase "Buy The Card Not the Flip" has become cliche. It might be, but it remains 100% true
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Dont know if anyone already mentioned this. Im a lazy reader sometimes. But it is possible the person purchased the legit cards and just used the original flips in holders they were able to purchase from a manufacturer. Now they can take their legit cards and resub them to PSA and in new holders.
@yankeeno7 said:
Dont know if anyone already mentioned this. Im a lazy reader sometimes. But it is possible the person purchased the legit cards and just used the original flips in holders they were able to purchase from a manufacturer. Now they can take their legit cards and resub them to PSA and in new holders.
@yankeeno7 said:
Dont know if anyone already mentioned this. Im a lazy reader sometimes. But it is possible the person purchased the legit cards and just used the original flips in holders they were able to purchase from a manufacturer. Now they can take their legit cards and resub them to PSA and in new holders.
Then simply rinse and repeat.... Appears ZANELLO & RIVA have expanded from CGC scams to PSA.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
The Bench has been tagged as a counterfeit...
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Certification number 25827895 has been temporarily DEACTIVATED as a precaution due to its use on a known counterfeit in the market. Please contact the Customer Request Center (CRC) at PSACRC@collectors.com if you own the item or call (800) 325-1121 for further information.
The Yaz also has been tagged....
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Certification number 16882758 has been temporarily DEACTIVATED as a precaution due to its use on a known counterfeit in the market. Please contact the Customer Request Center (CRC) at PSACRC@collectors.com if you own the item or call (800) 325-1121 for further information.
All 6 of the obviously bad cards have all been tagged as counterfeits now by PSA. Who has possession of them at this point, I have no idea.
Given the timing of them being flagged by PSA I would say that they were purchased and got caught going through authentication. Brett was pulled on the 17th, Yaz and Bench on the 23rd.
@gameusedhoop said:
Given the timing of them being flagged by PSA I would say that they were purchased and got caught going through authentication. Brett was pulled on the 17th, Yaz and Bench on the 23rd.
This is why all the complaining about PSA authentication is misguided. PSA saw this coming as probably the biggest threat to their business and were happy to cut a deal with eBay to make sure they were the ones checking that slabs are legit. If I were PSA I would have some in house detectives that try to trace these to the perpetrators and press charges on fraud. Jail time for people doing this is the only deterrent that will keep this from becoming a huge problem. Those slabs looked legit. If they did this with ultra-modern PSA 10s and put 9s in even advanced collectors would not know.
@brad31 said:
Those slabs looked legit. ** If they did this with ultra-modern PSA 10s and put 9**s in even advanced collectors would not know.
If done that way they would likley trick many experienced collectors at a show/com. I do wonder how prevalent it already is and only logical expect it to get much worse...
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@yankeeno7 said:
Dont know if anyone already mentioned this. Im a lazy reader sometimes. But it is possible the person purchased the legit cards and just used the original flips in holders they were able to purchase from a manufacturer. Now they can take their legit cards and resub them to PSA and in new holders.
Then simply rinse and repeat.... Appears ZANELLO & RIVA have expanded from CGC scams to PSA.
Are they also connected to the Pokeman Omega Packs/Sean Bassik debacle with CGC?
@yankeeno7 said:
Dont know if anyone already mentioned this. Im a lazy reader sometimes. But it is possible the person purchased the legit cards and just used the original flips in holders they were able to purchase from a manufacturer. Now they can take their legit cards and resub them to PSA and in new holders.
Then simply rinse and repeat.... Appears ZANELLO & RIVA have expanded from CGC scams to PSA.
Are they also connected to the Pokeman Omega Packs/Sean Bassik debacle with CGC?
Nope and since being exposed during recent CGC scandal rumor has it they've gone into hiding. BTW that scam was for Comics.
It's no longer safe to purchase a Card or Comic slab at a show unless there in an image from the Grading Company that can be viewed online.
Yeah buy the card not the flip but that only goes for a 3 or 4 masquerading as a 8 or 9 for example. Many 9's look like 10's especially the last few years, and 8's like 9's etc... Collectors who have decades of experiences will be fooled by those.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Are these guys being investigated by the authorities? Are they connected to the crazy Blowout Forums detective work that was done a couple years back? That stuff was seriously impressive.
John
Conundrum - Loving my unopened baseball card collection....but really like ripping too
Why would there be discovery of PSA in a criminal case? PSA hires a detective, that detective gathers evidence, turns it over to the proper authorities and it is the state or the city vs. the defendant on charges of fraud based on the evidence.
Horrible looking card. Unfortunately it is an older grade so there are no pictures on the PSA cert verification page. It is in the middle of a run of 1970 O Pee Chee hockey cards that are graded all over the place from 4 to 9. It doesn't look like there is any tampering with the slab, I am thinking old school mechanical error, but we've seen it could be almost anything.
@brad31 said:
Why would there be discovery of PSA in a criminal case? PSA hires a detective, that detective gathers evidence, turns it over to the proper authorities and it is the state or the city vs. the defendant on charges of fraud based on the evidence.
I believe discovery would be in a Civil case - for example PSA sues alleged perps for Trademark infringement.
I am curious to know what onus would be on PSA in a criminal case.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@gameusedhoop said:
Horrible looking card. Unfortunately it is an older grade so there are no pictures on the PSA cert verification page. It is in the middle of a run of 1970 O Pee Chee hockey cards that are graded all over the place from 4 to 9. It doesn't look like there is any tampering with the slab, I am thinking old school mechanical error, but we've seen it could be almost anything.
@gameusedhoop said:
Horrible looking card. Unfortunately it is an older grade so there are no pictures on the PSA cert verification page. It is in the middle of a run of 1970 O Pee Chee hockey cards that are graded all over the place from 4 to 9. It doesn't look like there is any tampering with the slab, I am thinking old school mechanical error, but we've seen it could be almost anything.
Does that card ever deserve a 9
Not even close. Has to be a fake or a mechanical error.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Update:
It took awhile but the supplier of our bad PSA cards is gone from ebay under this name at least.
nobilityestatesale (4522)
Not a registered user
Positive Feedback (last 12 months): 100%
Member since: Jul-21-11 in United States
It took over $9,000 in 6 bad slabs and most likely an investigation with ebay and PSA. Funniest thing is that their feedback was running 100% positive with all 6 cards failing authentication, but it was a $16 Pokemon card that earned them their 1st neutral:
Great communication and support! According to PSA, the item turned out to be stolen though. They did everything to support a return
@gameusedhoop said:
Update:
It took awhile but the supplier of our bad PSA cards is gone from ebay under this name at least.
nobilityestatesale (4522)
Not a registered user
Positive Feedback (last 12 months): 100%
Member since: Jul-21-11 in United States
It took over $9,000 in 6 bad slabs and most likely an investigation with ebay and PSA. Funniest thing is that their feedback was running 100% positive with all 6 cards failing authentication, but it was a $16 Pokemon card that earned them their 1st neutral:
Great communication and support! According to PSA, the item turned out to be stolen though. They did everything to support a return
All their current and past listings are gone.
They are still listed in sold listings used for comps.
@gameusedhoop said:
Update:
It took awhile but the supplier of our bad PSA cards is gone from ebay under this name at least.
nobilityestatesale (4522)
Not a registered user
Positive Feedback (last 12 months): 100%
Member since: Jul-21-11 in United States
It took over $9,000 in 6 bad slabs and most likely an investigation with ebay and PSA. Funniest thing is that their feedback was running 100% positive with all 6 cards failing authentication, but it was a $16 Pokemon card that earned them their 1st neutral:
Great communication and support! According to PSA, the item turned out to be stolen though. They did everything to support a return
All their current and past listings are gone.
They are still listed in sold listings used for comps.
The market manipulation continues...
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Comments
eBay Execs have done and been convicted of much worse
That would take expertise that Ebay doesn’t possess! (knowing these slabs have something wrong with them).
Cyberstalking and harassment.
Jail time for some.
Never heard of shilling.
Agreed Stalking and threat of violence is more their speed
Just about 6 hours left and they are all still up. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple weeks.
Anyway you can find out ?
WIWAG coming out of retirement?
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
All 6 of the following cards will have to go through the authenticator before going to the buyer. It'll be interesting to see what happens to these cards. The 3 that haven't been deactivated yet should end up as such. We'll have to watch the feedback for the seller in the next couple weeks.
[https://ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=nobilityestatesale&store_name=nobilityestatesale&_oac=1&_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l161211]
The most interesting part of this story is that the slabs do not appear to be tamped with, and only the newly graded slabs have been deactivated except for the Brett. The Yaz, Brett, and the Bench are all older grades but are in newer slabs, so they have supposedly been at PSA pretty recently. I really don't know what to make of it.
PSA 3 1963 Rose 68588688 was intentionally DEACTIVATED in the PSA database previously sold for $1150
PSA 5 1962 Mantle 65273778 was intentionally DEACTIVATED in the PSA database previously sold for $510
PSA 8.5 1968 Bench 25827895 Certainly not an 8.5 in this slab sold for $1825
PSA 6.5 1963 Rose 67673377 was intentionally DEACTIVATED in the PSA database previously sold for $2676
PSA 8 1975 Brett 66026392 does not match the picture in the PSA database sold for $635
PSA 8 1960 Yastrzemski 16882758 visibly creased front left side sold for $2222
I don't have a dog in this fight, or rather one that I'm going to express. I just wanted to point out that the eBay links are going to go bad shortly. If any of the posters want their posts to be meaningful in several months, then they should use pictures rather than links.
I also do not see any signs of tampering from the images. ie, no frosting at the edges of the slabs. there is no way they were graded at PSA. they must be counterfeit slabs? no?
scary proposition. I hope this does not become widespread.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
There's nothing proprietary or novel about the plastics or the ultrasonic welding process and there are plenty of fake slabs. The security is included in the label, but as the slab can be destroyed without destroying the label you have quite the loop-hole.
If at 12th you don't succeed... time to hire better engineers. Just make it so that the label cannot be removed nondestructively from the plastics. Jokes aside. There are many inexpensive options.
When failing authentication process;
Are tampered or counterfeit slabs and cards confiscated or returned to seller
Wow. Perfect counterfeit slabs and labels. That is scary.
Likely scenario. These are fake slabs using a real cert #, however real slab exists with same PSA cert # in someone’s collection. These don’t pass authentication. PSA destroys the holders and possibly the cards. Buyer gets money back from seller. Nobody investigates. If seller lists more such cards they will be banned from EBay. None of those things will be known to us.
This is more common than we think and why EBay decided to authenticate the slabs and PSA took the job to do just that. If we buy the card not the holder it is something we should not get duped on unless people like this start putting PSA 7s in PSA 8 slabs.
Now on ultra-modern this is an easy scam. Take a PSA 9 reslab as a 10, avoid EBay as a sales platform. Rinse and Repeat. As long as original 10 not on the registry the buyer will never know.
Here is an image of the original Yaz in probably the legitimate slab. If this has already been posted mea culpa.
Go to aliexpress or alibaba and you can find endless amounts of blank slabs available. (for coins too)
Find one that is the most similar to a PSA slab.
Contact the manufacturer and order in bulk to have a "PSA" embossed on it and you're done.
Use a little superglue or buy a sonic welder for a few grand.
You are now a pro counterfeiter.
PSA really needs to do what TAG grading does to deter counterfeiting.
"TAG believes the card's appearance should speak for itself.
Say goodbye to distracting paper flips. Instead, the TAG grades
and data are permanently inscribed directly inside the slab."
1963 Topps Pete Rose Rookie Card RC #537 Rookie Stars Graded PSA 6.5 EX - MINT +
New (Other)
$2,676.00
38 bids
+$6.15 shipping
View similar active items
1963 Topps Pete Rose Rookie Card RC #537 Rookie Stars Graded PSA 3 Very Good
New (Other)
$1,150.00
40 bids
+$5.80 shipping
Authenticity Guarantee
View similar active items
Does anyone else see yet another problem with one of these cards?
One of them will not have to go through the Authenticity Guarantee. Someone is going to be out $2682.15 very soon.
I agree on the tag slabs. They look very nice.
I don’t understand how that auction could end up without the guarantee.
UPDATE
The 75 Brett....Certification number 66026392 has been temporarily DEACTIVATED as a precaution due to its use on a known counterfeit in the market. Please contact the Customer Request Center (CRC) at PSACRC@collectors.com if you own the item or call (800) 325-1121 for further information.
The Yastrzemski & Bench cards remain in the database and have no photos as they are older grades. The 2 Rose cards and the 62 Mantle are still intentionally deactivated.
In the overall scheme of the hobby perhaps for the best the buyer has been criminally swindled. Those who learn that type of valuable lesson are likley to spread the word thus helping to prevent others from making same mistake.
Hope the rube does not simply exit the hobby without saying a word.
Some feel the phrase "Buy The Card Not the Flip" has become cliche. It might be, but it remains 100% true
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I was going to say, where are the borders to the holder. It's likely from a cracked case.
Dont know if anyone already mentioned this. Im a lazy reader sometimes. But it is possible the person purchased the legit cards and just used the original flips in holders they were able to purchase from a manufacturer. Now they can take their legit cards and resub them to PSA and in new holders.
sounds reasonable
Then simply rinse and repeat.... Appears ZANELLO & RIVA have expanded from CGC scams to PSA.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
The Bench has been tagged as a counterfeit...
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Certification number 25827895 has been temporarily DEACTIVATED as a precaution due to its use on a known counterfeit in the market. Please contact the Customer Request Center (CRC) at PSACRC@collectors.com if you own the item or call (800) 325-1121 for further information.
The Yaz also has been tagged....
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Certification number 16882758 has been temporarily DEACTIVATED as a precaution due to its use on a known counterfeit in the market. Please contact the Customer Request Center (CRC) at PSACRC@collectors.com if you own the item or call (800) 325-1121 for further information.
All 6 of the obviously bad cards have all been tagged as counterfeits now by PSA. Who has possession of them at this point, I have no idea.
I doubt anyone really bought them. Most people that buy those type of cards are pretty darn knowledgeable to the hobby.
Given the timing of them being flagged by PSA I would say that they were purchased and got caught going through authentication. Brett was pulled on the 17th, Yaz and Bench on the 23rd.
Great work. Thanks
This is why all the complaining about PSA authentication is misguided. PSA saw this coming as probably the biggest threat to their business and were happy to cut a deal with eBay to make sure they were the ones checking that slabs are legit. If I were PSA I would have some in house detectives that try to trace these to the perpetrators and press charges on fraud. Jail time for people doing this is the only deterrent that will keep this from becoming a huge problem. Those slabs looked legit. If they did this with ultra-modern PSA 10s and put 9s in even advanced collectors would not know.
This is an existential threat to PSA and I’m sure doing the Authentication will be with us forever. It’s a good thing too
If done that way they would likley trick many experienced collectors at a show/com. I do wonder how prevalent it already is and only logical expect it to get much worse...
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Are they also connected to the Pokeman Omega Packs/Sean Bassik debacle with CGC?
Nope and since being exposed during recent CGC scandal rumor has it they've gone into hiding. BTW that scam was for Comics.
It's no longer safe to purchase a Card or Comic slab at a show unless there in an image from the Grading Company that can be viewed online.
Yeah buy the card not the flip but that only goes for a 3 or 4 masquerading as a 8 or 9 for example. Many 9's look like 10's especially the last few years, and 8's like 9's etc... Collectors who have decades of experiences will be fooled by those.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Are these guys being investigated by the authorities? Are they connected to the crazy Blowout Forums detective work that was done a couple years back? That stuff was seriously impressive.
John
PSa regardless of public stance will not pursue charges. The discovery process likely scares the bejesus out of them
as it did to CGC
So there is no end game here ?
It just is what it is ?
Why would there be discovery of PSA in a criminal case? PSA hires a detective, that detective gathers evidence, turns it over to the proper authorities and it is the state or the city vs. the defendant on charges of fraud based on the evidence.
Just hit eBay. Thoughts
Horrible looking card. Unfortunately it is an older grade so there are no pictures on the PSA cert verification page. It is in the middle of a run of 1970 O Pee Chee hockey cards that are graded all over the place from 4 to 9. It doesn't look like there is any tampering with the slab, I am thinking old school mechanical error, but we've seen it could be almost anything.
I believe discovery would be in a Civil case - for example PSA sues alleged perps for Trademark infringement.
I am curious to know what onus would be on PSA in a criminal case.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Thoughts
Does that card ever deserve a 9
Etsy is bad for reprints like this guy selling them and am sure that people are then listing them on Ebay and other platforms. You really cannot trust much anymore - https://www.etsy.com/shop/MVPNOVELTYCARDS?ref=shop-header-name&listing_id=1456333465&from_page=listing
Not even close. Has to be a fake or a mechanical error.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Looks like a 4
that card is definitely not a 9
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Update:
It took awhile but the supplier of our bad PSA cards is gone from ebay under this name at least.
nobilityestatesale (4522)
Not a registered user
Positive Feedback (last 12 months): 100%
Member since: Jul-21-11 in United States
It took over $9,000 in 6 bad slabs and most likely an investigation with ebay and PSA. Funniest thing is that their feedback was running 100% positive with all 6 cards failing authentication, but it was a $16 Pokemon card that earned them their 1st neutral:
Great communication and support! According to PSA, the item turned out to be stolen though. They did everything to support a return
All their current and past listings are gone.
They are still listed in sold listings used for comps.
The market manipulation continues...
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)