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    gameusedhoopgameusedhoop Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭

    From their consignments department, and a really old grade given the cert #.

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    Blame PSA not the seller

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    82FootballWaxMemorys82FootballWaxMemorys Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A tenant of great business is to keep ones largest customers happy!

    Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.

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    82FootballWaxMemorys82FootballWaxMemorys Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What's evens worse is the gaggle of Ryan RUBES who bid 10 coin on the off-center, chipped borders, horribly presenting card that is AT BEST PSA8 and most likley a 7

    Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.

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    BBBrkrrBBBrkrr Posts: 960 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @82FootballWaxMemorys said:
    What's evens worse is the gaggle of Ryan RUBES who bid 10 coin on the off-center, chipped borders, horribly presenting card that is AT BEST PSA8 and most likley a 7

    For real. No way their AI (😂) lets that centering be a 10 these days

    That’s some terrible top off centering.

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    80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Worrying about over graded cards from the past is a fools errand, we all know the grading standards have changed and that grading is incredibly inconsistent.

    The beauty of that Ryan is you can find a nicer card in an 8 or 9 flip for 25 bucks. Problem solved.

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    DavidPuddyDavidPuddy Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭

    Yuck Ryan!

    Here's another questionable card. Probably a consignment as well. OP will love this being and OPC fan...

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/386793949583?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=lRWoOGb3Tnq&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=iHf4B9WMQPm&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

    "The Sipe market is ridiculous right now"
    CDsNuts, 1/9/15
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    So what you’re saying is 82 is that PSA has lost their integrity because you think 4SC gets preferred grades? If that’s the case then every PSA card is or may be compromised. You’re saying PSA is crooked and gives preferential treatment. I don’t think so and I’ve had more than my fair share of grading complaints over the last 18 months.

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    sayheywyosayheywyo Posts: 447 ✭✭✭✭

    Not complaining Hidhoe and no interest in a '75 Bench. I occasionally track cards to see how much other folks are actually paying and the quality they're buying. I usually track auctions of cards I have and have been pleasantly surprised at Mays and '65 Mantle of all things. No difficulty in my life, I'll be 62, retired for 5 years in a couple months and enjoying making memories while still somewhat young. The hobby can be enjoyed in many ways whether observing or participating.

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    pdoidoipdoidoi Posts: 497 ✭✭✭

    @Hidhoe said:
    The people who complain about every 8,9, and 10 under the sun must live a difficult life.

    I love this hobby and enjoy it immensely. If I’m expecting a 9 and get an 8 then I could care less.

    Not in it for the money.
    In it for the memories, fun, and diversion from real life.

    How about if expecting a 9 and getting a 6 or a 5. The rumor of 4sharpcorners does raise a concern to some on this forum.

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    HidhoeHidhoe Posts: 310 ✭✭✭

    @pdoidoi said:

    @Hidhoe said:
    The people who complain about every 8,9, and 10 under the sun must live a difficult life.

    I love this hobby and enjoy it immensely. If I’m expecting a 9 and get an 8 then I could care less.

    Not in it for the money.
    In it for the memories, fun, and diversion from real life.

    How about if expecting a 9 and getting a 6 or a 5. The rumor of 4sharpcorners does raise a concern to some on this forum.

    There’s possible back room deals everywhere in this world.
    We Can’t change the world.
    Could care less too.
    I enjoy my cards and could care less about their cards or business practice. Not my business.

    Never ever had an expected 9 come back lower then an 8.

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    @pdoidoi said:

    @Hidhoe said:
    The people who complain about every 8,9, and 10 under the sun must live a difficult life.

    I love this hobby and enjoy it immensely. If I’m expecting a 9 and get an 8 then I could care less.

    Not in it for the money.
    In it for the memories, fun, and diversion from real life.

    How about if expecting a 9 and getting a 6 or a 5. The rumor of 4sharpcorners does raise a concern to some on this forum.

    Exactly, to refuse to see the politics in business and life. One of my favorite sayings

    “if you refuse to take interest in your government, you will be ruled by fools”.

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hidhoe,

    If you or dbesse don't like the threads, you don't have to respond. There are a number of people on the board that are interested in other things than you or me normally like. It's not a big deal, it's what makes the world go round. If all of us only collected Mickey Mantle stuff and nothing else, the hobby wouldn't be a lot of fun. If all i had to do was sit around downing people's PSA threads, I would be living a miserable life.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the holder does the card no justice (the 1975 bench), the whole card looks out of sorts in the holder. PSA's holders need improving. Hard to tell centering on some cards.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And fwiw, I’ve bought raw cards off them back in the day, and had some nice hits. Trustworthy company IMO

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @80sOPC said:
    And fwiw, I’ve bought raw cards off them back in the day, and had some nice hits. Trustworthy company IMO

    i bought a raw leaf clemens 1985 - graded a beckett 9.5. paid 6 sold for 1000. none of these discussions are 4sc's fault. they did ban me when i complained about receiving 4 cards with back wax stains. when i complained they said they would not refund me and then proceeded to ban me from buying from them.

    thought their move was a little over the top. they didn't show the back nor did they disclose the issues.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DBesse27 said:
    I don’t mean to crap on your thread and almost didn’t comment. This is a general statement, not picking on you. But I think it’s important to distinguish between the items 4SC subs themselves and then sells, vs. the consignments they take in.

    1) unless it's someone's consignment we know or from the this board, how do we know 100% that it's consigned. if they know their reputation , maybe its a good way to sell the cards without looking guilty.

    2) the grading isn't 4sc's fault - but they do receive some questionable grading.

    3) being or wanting to be a top notch consignor means you should be picky about what cards you are selling. there is no requirement to sell the above card for someone.

    4) just based on what i see and who it is, it would not surprise me if the card was originally graded by them. consign it and it looks like it belongs to someone else.

    dbesse27, this post is strictly my thoughts not trying to sound like a big D. not trying to tick you off.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,712 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2024 5:32PM

    The Ryan card was graded within the first few years of 4SC’s existence, like 15-20 years ago. Given their current focus on consignment selling, it is very unlikely that they submitted it.

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    shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve seen worse. I believe this is the most ludicrous PSA 10 of all time. The entire right side of the card is missing. And it still sold for $456! 😱 I added a pic of a 9 for reference.


    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PaulMaul said:
    The Ryan card was graded within the first few years of 4SC’s existence, like 15-20 years ago. Given their current focus on consignment selling, it is very unlikely that they submitted it.

    Exactly. It's 100% a consigned card.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PaulMaul said:
    The Ryan card was graded within the first few years of 4SC’s existence, like 15-20 years ago. Given their current focus on consignment selling, it is very unlikely that they submitted it.

    like a i said no one knows. we can guess. i personally would not consign it, if i am trying to be a legitimate top notch consignor. no one is making them, their certainly not hurting financially and no one on this thread believes the card is 10.

    the next question is how did the auction go to almost $400. paul and grote wouldn't buy it and no one on this thread would, much less for the highest price ever.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Harnessracing said:
    Blame PSA not the seller

    yes. but seems to be too often.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    HarnessracingHarnessracing Posts: 327 ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2024 6:47PM

    They also have a boatload of 5’s, 6’s and 7’s.
    Many of the 10s are also consignment cards.

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    grote15

    ive graded about 5,000 cards with psa over the years. i can promise you i would have received a 7 or 9 oc. the point of the thread was the obvious. the grade, the price received and the seller.

    grade - 3 grades over

    the price - the highest ever for that card

    the seller - one of the few that could accomplish this.

    the thread seems to gloss over the price received for an historically misgraded card.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    HidhoeHidhoe Posts: 310 ✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:
    grote15

    the thread seems to gloss over the price received for an historically misgraded card.

    1- The price received is the buyers business, not ours.

    2- A misgraded card is PSA’s business with the owner of the card.

    Neither of those two apply to anyone here.

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    HidhoeHidhoe Posts: 310 ✭✭✭

    @grote15 said:

    @olb31 said:

    @PaulMaul said:
    The Ryan card was graded within the first few years of 4SC’s existence, like 15-20 years ago. Given their current focus on consignment selling, it is very unlikely that they submitted it.

    like a i said no one knows. we can guess. i personally would not consign it, if i am trying to be a legitimate top notch consignor. no one is making them, their certainly not hurting financially and no one on this thread believes the card is 10.

    the next question is how did the auction go to almost $400. paul and grote wouldn't buy it and no one on this thread would, much less for the highest price ever.

    If the goal of this thread is to highlight a card graded long ago that may not be worthy of the grade and was sold by a consignment company whose role is to list for consignment the items they receive from collectors, then I guess you succeeded, but not sure what the point is. There are many cards in both old and new holders, submitted by both large submitters and small time collectors that are both high end and low end for the grade. It's not a conspiracy.

    The goal of this thread is to complain about the mistakes made in the hobby.
    Mission accomplished.
    The hobby police sometimes get it right and sometimes they don’t.

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    brad31brad31 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2024 1:19PM

    Just curious - what do we do with our over graded cards if not sell them? I have 3 cards that are not graded right - one has a wax stain on the back, two have a badly dinged corner. Plan to bring to the National and will likely consign. We all have eyes - I expect them to sell for really low for the grade. If I sent to PSA in slab and asked for a regrade what are the odds they send me a check and the cards in a lower graded slab? If someone wants to overpay then that is great, I probably did because the defect wasn’t obvious in the scans or I was dumb enough to buy without a back scan. The problem is PSA graded the card wrong. I was able to buy a better card (sometimes even in a lower grade). I don’t need duplicates. If I consign it will be to someplace that has good scans so the buyer can see what they are buying.

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/265776038859?itmmeta=01HQK4EZJY0BWQF6WQ97V3E520&hash=item3de17c83cb:g:hCUAAOSwGK9lcLKI&itmprp=enc:AQAIAAAA4OCU5NoU0FY4u1lNC3o32JR6zJ0Rgof/IMyQf0dVXT7KJOU6vN41uCMCxqE5gtSYpCqyl01gc0tsTDVWdbQMUtYw2LSl3cYNj6vfG7S34nzMw9ogLOQ3S2Sv53R7n2omaOsUEzdGolu8S0OWEF07hPDtczwZOX3lrMaZkIwkP/6Ih5id7Wz7ecEfKcubwd6u6U98f/8u6nyG0ilOz2A6D7MEx/MF/++OcFabIcwYDwv4w4+uryeOt29KyGAoZUofwnuRnrgDYkrREtJXiVyZSKOMqGCE7iB36jXhaWVfSPWX|tkp:Bk9SR4z6u-S8Yw

    Above is a sell of a 1986 fleer Barry bonds PSA 10. If you compare the front of the cards between this one and the RYan its a big difference. The bonds looks like the correct grade, if you look at the back of the card, the black sections on the top and bottom both match almost exactly. On the ryan card, the back is way off.

    But it does appear that there is very little consistency with the 1986 fleer psa 10 gradings for a bunch of the cards by PSA. I think the back gives you the top to bottom centering. But it's not clear when reviewing several PSA 10's.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    AANVAANV Posts: 331 ✭✭✭

    To me, this card doesn't seem like an egregiously bad example, especially considering the age of the cert #. Is it a modern day PSA 10? Of course not. Is it something that I feel is totally out of place for sale as a PSA 10 with an early cert #? No.

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AANV said:
    To me, this card doesn't seem like an egregiously bad example, especially considering the age of the cert #. Is it a modern day PSA 10? Of course not. Is it something that I feel is totally out of place for sale as a PSA 10 with an early cert #? No.

    doesn't look like a 10 to me, but the 1986 fleer cards are all over the place with grading. the back of the ryan shows the tale tell signs of the centering. and to me a 10 should be a 10. not a 2012 10 or 1997 10 or 2023 10.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AANV said:
    To me, this card doesn't seem like an egregiously bad example, especially considering the age of the cert #. Is it a modern day PSA 10? Of course not. Is it something that I feel is totally out of place for sale as a PSA 10 with an early cert #? No.

    Agreed. At first glance, centering looks like it may be within parameters for a PSA 10 and the card appears sharp to me. I think the OP is being a bit harsh here. There are far more egregious examples of lower end cards for the grade than this one.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grote15 said:

    @AANV said:
    To me, this card doesn't seem like an egregiously bad example, especially considering the age of the cert #. Is it a modern day PSA 10? Of course not. Is it something that I feel is totally out of place for sale as a PSA 10 with an early cert #? No.

    Agreed. At first glance, centering looks like it may be within parameters for a PSA 10 and the card appears sharp to me. I think the OP is being a bit harsh here. There are far more egregious examples of lower end cards for the grade than this one.

    After reviewing the way the 1986 Fleer have been graded, I would say that there doesn't appear to be a set standard as to what a PSA 10 is. There are many PSA 10's that look very close to the Ryan centering wise. Having the "fleer" name right on the border just seemed off to me, which I think it is. I think the way they are printed, the best way to arrive at a centered card is to view the back. The black on the top and on the bottom should be about the size. I think you have include the Fleer name as part of the card to some degree. But who knows.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    BBBrkrrBBBrkrr Posts: 960 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:

    @grote15 said:

    @AANV said:
    To me, this card doesn't seem like an egregiously bad example, especially considering the age of the cert #. Is it a modern day PSA 10? Of course not. Is it something that I feel is totally out of place for sale as a PSA 10 with an early cert #? No.

    Agreed. At first glance, centering looks like it may be within parameters for a PSA 10 and the card appears sharp to me. I think the OP is being a bit harsh here. There are far more egregious examples of lower end cards for the grade than this one.

    After reviewing the way the 1986 Fleer have been graded, I would say that there doesn't appear to be a set standard as to what a PSA 10 is. There are many PSA 10's that look very close to the Ryan centering wise. Having the "fleer" name right on the border just seemed off to me, which I think it is. I think the way they are printed, the best way to arrive at a centered card is to view the back. The black on the top and on the bottom should be about the size. I think you have include the Fleer name as part of the card to some degree. _But who knows. _

    Truer words never spoken...

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have noticed that the 1986 Fleer 10's are fetching pretty high prices. Way more than Donruss (except for Canseco). The 1986 fleer factory set may be something to consider given that several psa 10's are in the $300++ range.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    RonSportscardsRonSportscards Posts: 808 ✭✭✭✭

    @olb31 said:

    @grote15 said:

    @AANV said:
    To me, this card doesn't seem like an egregiously bad example, especially considering the age of the cert #. Is it a modern day PSA 10? Of course not. Is it something that I feel is totally out of place for sale as a PSA 10 with an early cert #? No.

    Agreed. At first glance, centering looks like it may be within parameters for a PSA 10 and the card appears sharp to me. I think the OP is being a bit harsh here. There are far more egregious examples of lower end cards for the grade than this one.

    After reviewing the way the 1986 Fleer have been graded, I would say that there doesn't appear to be a set standard as to what a PSA 10 is. There are many PSA 10's that look very close to the Ryan centering wise. Having the "fleer" name right on the border just seemed off to me, which I think it is. I think the way they are printed, the best way to arrive at a centered card is to view the back. The black on the top and on the bottom should be about the size. I think you have include the Fleer name as part of the card to some degree. But who knows.

    And I feel the opposite, that the border framing the picture being consistent looks better, even if the "fleer" is in the "frame".

    Like this Jeter RC. The white border being even top and bottom presents better to me, but it's off centered since it's measured by the name bubble. (this card is a PSA8)

    And this 83 Cey Sticker looks off because centering is measured from the bottom of the number, causing the white frame to look uneven top and bottom. (this card is a PSA10)

    But then you can have the number right at the card edge and the white frame surrounding the photo presents better, (diamond cut notwithstanding. this card is a PSA8)

    So when is PSA using the photo frame or the number or whatever graphic to measure centering?
    It's true, the back can be an indicator, but not a foolproof method.
    Looking up past graded cards is a good way, but if one stumbled on the Ryan you posted, and used that as an example, one might be disappointed in thinking how PSA would measure centering on that person's 86 Fleer sub.

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's why its fun to have this conversations like this. I think there have been some special favors given out in the past (hence the large number of PSA 10's in the 1980's that exist), some people don't think that and that's fine.

    From the past, prolly around 2014 or 2015, large submitters were being charged around $3 and the only ones being encased were 9 and 10's ( the charge was a regular charge for the time $5 or so). This lead to mass numbers of grading, hence the large numbers in the pop reports. (me and you wouldn't submit 25 1988 topps nolan ryan's for $5 apiece at the time, because psa 10's were selling for $25, no upside for us).

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    BBBrkrrBBBrkrr Posts: 960 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DBesse27 said:

    @craig44 said:
    I do not think there is a grand PSA conspiracy. I do not think they are giving "better" grades to larger submitters. All i see is anecdotal evidence, no hard evidence.

    I think that grading is a subjective process, even when there are parameters set in place. When one large submitter (100,000+ cards per year) is subbing, it will appear they are getting shown favoritism, when in fact it is just a numbers game. I am sure out of that 100K cards, there are lots that are undergraded. those ones get no play because it isnt as fun to highlight them.

    This! I’ve said it over and over again on these boards and elsewhere, but the conspiracy theorists won’t buy it.

    I'm with you. There's nothing that would undermine a company's rep than for people to find out they grade different people differently. Every customer would immediately go to a different competitor and the market for their graded slabs would dry up. It is an absolutely company-killing move to do anything like that. Of course word would get out from the graders since there seems to be a ton of turnover with that job.

    All the rest is just anecdotal. It also doesn't mean their grading standards don't change over time too, but that's not the same as giving preferential grades.

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,543 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Grading standards do change over time. sometimes more harsh, sometimes more lenient. It would be a business killer though if preferential treatment were given.

    eventually it would get out if it were true. a former employee would eventually have a "tell all" if it were the case.

    If you grade a few hundred cards a year and have a minimum grade on your cards, it sure will look like you get lots of 9's and 10's. there are also a lot of 6, 7 and 8's that we never see as they would be below the threshold.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I looked at the 1986 Fleer Canseco. There are a total of 4 on EBAY. None of the 4 have the Fleer name right against the border. But the backs are pretty even on the top and bottom. Bottom line the 1986 fleer centering is all over the place and totally inconsistent. Now that some of these cards are approaching $500 in pSA 10 , i would like to think there would be a set standard moving forward, The Ryan I posted, IMO, would not be a 10 today.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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    bgrbgr Posts: 231 ✭✭✭

    Is everyone in agreement then that it is time to unveil the PSA 11 ?!

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    olb31olb31 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bgr said:
    Is everyone in agreement then that it is time to unveil the PSA 11 ?!

    That is an advantage on SGC that have an sgc 11 called sgc 10 pristine. PSA can just be a soft 10 or a great 10.

    Work hard and you will succeed!!
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