How to tell if coin is artificially toned?
MercuryFB
Posts: 3 ✭
I'm new to collecting toned coins. Here is one I purchased on an online auction that was in a PCI slab as MS65. Of course I don't trust them for grading so I sent it off to PCGS to get graded. Came back questionable color. For people who collect toned coins do you think it is toned or questionable color. To me it looks like a very nice toned coin. Please let me know what you think? I really need everyone's help. If I can't figure out how to tell, I'm going to stop buying them.
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Howdy and welcome to the boards.
You've opened up a whole can of worms here, but I will tell you that my first inclination (really, immediate reaction) was that this coin was either artificially toned or has secondary (or tertiary) toning on it from dipping. The best I can tell you, without writing on and on and on, is that the colors and/or patterns do not look right to my eyes for it to have gotten that way without help. However, and this is a big however, I don't know what the coin looks like in-hand because the TruView shots at PCGS lately have been a little hit-or-miss.
At this point in time I would suggest that if you want a toned coin, or any coin, in a PCGS holder that you purchase one already in a PCGS holder.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
How to tell if coin is artificially toned?
Perform SEM-EDX (~2500 to 3000$) and you will find. The rest is relative. Many factors can affect the color spectrum development.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
What you will learn is that Mother Nature is a devious female. All kinds of colors can occur on metal objects. Most natural coloration follows patterns - with experience it becomes a "I know it when I see it thing" that is often correct but not always. I make it easy on myself. IF IT LOOKS NATURAL, it may as well be. I've seen too many long neglected silver objects in buckets covered by cobwebs with unusual pastels of pink, yellow, green, blue and violet so amazing that no person on earth would believe were not chemically altered by man rather left to the whims of that old girl.
The internet is your friend. Look at coins that have been straight graded to refine your eye for "market acceptability."
PS PCI slabs, of the 90's especially, were prone to turning coins different colors. If you sent the coin in raw, PCGS determined it was not "Market Acceptable" because it looks AT.
Notice how the toning pattern has a wet look with little droplets. That almost always means the coin was dipped and not properly rinsed and the disproportionate residue made it tone disproportionately in a wet pattern. Or a liquid agent was applied and then heated or exposed to a secondary influencer to bring the color about. Even if it had graded it wasn’t going to grade close to 65 anyway. Grading is as important as identifying original surfaces
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I personally find the colored toning on the coin to be attractive.
Toning appreciation is one of the more personal and subjective aspects of Numismatics. In the past I have purchased “Questionable Toning” coins as designated on the slab, that to my eye were attractive, at a significant discount based on not having a numeric grade on the slab.
IMO the more pertinent question is about the grade. I understand you purchased it in a PCI slab.
My initial reaction is that it appears to be circulated based on the haphazard orientation and amount of hairline scratches. I’m guessing AU-55 to 58, solely based on the photos you’ve provided.
It’s possible that IF the toning was applied artificially, it could have been in an attempt to conceal the signs of circulation, to improve the grade by making it more difficult to see the circulation wear.
My best advice for you is to learn inexpensively by looking at a lot of Toned coins at Coin Shows in PCGS and NGC holders to get a feel for Market Acceptance and how they determine Natural vs Artificial toning.
Hope this helps…
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
The color pattern of a whitish blue, blending to a dark blue, blending to purple is a tell tale sign of artificial tone for me. Look around the words “United States” on the reverse of your coin to see the area I’m referring to.
Like @TomB said.
There are a couple websites where you can learn more about toning on coins.
Here is one, but there are other ones with more information.
https://www.originalskincoins.com/blogs/news/coin-toning-101-the-differences-between-naturally-and-artificially-toned-coins
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Here are three examples of coins that IMO are attractive, that I purchased knowingly with “Questionable Toning” on the slab.
I still own all 3 and will tightly hold onto them. 😎👍
1876-S Trade Dollar
1878-CC Morgan Dollar
1921 Peace Dollar
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Natural toning often settles around the devices, while artificial toning appears on the devices.
Dealing in Canadian and American coins and historical medals.
Uhhhhh… are you suggesting a sign of natural toning is toned fields and untoned devices?
from which point of view are original on the link???
Wrong aprouch of the tonning.
Different environement, chemical interferances, lighting and etc.
This was UV from one side:
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
@silviosi - I’d like to also see the white light photo for comparison…
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
The photo was took with white 0. Sorry for my ignorance. You want the photo in white and black? Let me know. I have the system from Ray but not pro in photos. Just my camera without the lens has 350 manual pages to complex.
Let me know or explain me and will be done.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
Natural toning occurs at the molecular level, devices are like giant Mt. Everests at that level. This is part of the why that NT coins don't get toning on the high portions. It also has to do with how hard the metal is. AT coin's get flooded with reactive compounds quickly and it shows. It is quite easy to tell if you have seen enough. I have had body bags for AT coins that were legit not AT.
Hey, What you talk about??? you will see with your eye the molecular change??? Do you want to kill me???? You must study mere my friend. The molecular science and the basic metalurgy are to different beasts. Keep your bags or sell them.
After you finish the studies come back with something concrete. EX: If a coin will tonning in humid Na environement and me in laboratory I will do almost same environement, you tell me you can see this with out sophiticate test as SEM-EDX???
Give me a brake please. The both NT and AT react at the level of the free anions if you know what it is.
PS: Sorry Guys, but I can not accept such inepties.
Silvio
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
He thought you were saying that the coin photo was taken with UV light while I THINK you meant to say that the toning was due to UV light.
What free anions? Most toning requires no free anions.
I'm sorry, but devices at the "molecular level" are not any higher than the fields. It's just a question of what part of the surface the molecules contact.
Toning difference on coin surfaces can be related to material stress differences from striking. "Altitude" is irrelevant.
Ok, so you like AT. How does that help the OP recognize it and avoid it? As you pointed out, such coins trade at a discount. MA toning trades at a premium. It benefits the buyer to recognize the difference.
Just a suggestion and make your life easy on your self - First, buy only (or view carefully) PCGS CAC or CAC graded coins that are toned. More likely than not these toned coins are naturally toned. Study them and the toning patterns along with the toning colors. Over time, you will know what is artificially toned or not. If you see a toned coins not in a PCGS or CAC, then ask the dealer why do they think it wasn't CAC. Another suggestion is go take a grading class like the one offered at ANA summer seminar. They had an hour course where a instructor showed how to tone a coin in an hour or so. Very educational. So dont give us but once you got the hang of it and understand eye appeal, your on your way building a great collection.
The phrase market acceptable comes to mind.
These in my humble opinion are not artificially toned:
Note the consistency of the toning pattern without any spots.
You know a lot more about coins than I do. Will you please explain this post. What EXACTLY will you find with this test that will indicate a coin is natural or AT. Thanks in advance.>
@Stuart said: "Here are three examples of coins that IMO are attractive, that I purchased knowingly with “Questionable Toning” on the slab. I still own all 3 and will tightly hold onto them. 😎👍
Send me the grade/dates/Type of the toned coins you need for your collection. I have a friend...
From the main applications of the SEM-EDX:
1. Characterisation of material structures
2. Assessment of reaction interfaces, service environment and degradation mechanisms
3. Characterization of surface defects, stains and residues on metals, glasses, ceramics and polymers
4. Measurement of the thickness of layered structures, metallised layers, oxide films, composite materials using cross sectional imaging
5. Particulate and contaminant analysis on and within materials.
SEM:
1. Rapid, high resolution imaging with identification of elements present
2. Spatially resolved quantitative EDX (EDA) analysis of user defined areas on sample surface
3. Characterization of particulates and defects
4. Examination of grain structure and segregation effects
5. Coating thickness measurement using cross sectional imaging of polished sections.
They are more characteristics of this but I will not go in details. Because this it is an electron microprobe at about 50000x allow sub micron-scale features you to see, it easy to determine for example if the tonning was natural or artificial. Any artificial tonning will change the molecular structure in an incentive way. Then recognising the composition of this micro film could be determinate clear if was develop naturaly or artificialy.
EX: with electron microprobe we find many spectrum color of tonning in coins with different elements combinated with high % of iodine (I2) or potassium iodide (I-) which naturally could not be posible.
So this it is an example.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
Look for any remnants of Taco Bell sauce. (Not to be confused with mustard). RGDS!
I'm not buying this. There is no reason why AT (accelerated toning) needs to be distinct from NT at any level of analysis. Exactly how would natural toning with sulfide exposure present differently than "artificial toning" by exposure to the some sulfide?
It is POSSIBLE that the structures would grow differently under some conditions. But what conditions? And where is the research to support this?
"Album toning" is due to high sulfur cardboard. It is deemed NA or NT. Show me the micrograms that show the Taco Bell sulfide growth to be structurally different.
AT is sort of like porn- you know it when you see it.
I suppose part of the difference is that AT that really creates controversy has to be seen in hand. Images may not always help. This is my coin. I submitted it to PCGS and I paid for the True View so I can post it here without the threat of violating any copy right issues.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Sulphur is an electrically neutral element **with symbol **S.
Sulphide is an inorganic anion **but with formula **S2--
Sulphur is a chemical element present in the periodic table.
Sulphide is the compound made up of Sulphur and metal or Sulphur with an electropositive element.
Sulphur is used directly in our food, batteries, detergents, gun powder, lamp oil, fireworks, manufacturing fertilizers,
Sulphide is used in dyes, Kraft paper, Crude petroleum process, treating the metal pollution etc.
Example of the compounds formed by Sulphur is Sulphur dioxide SO2 Sulphur trioxide SO3 etc.
Example of the compounds formed by Sulphide is Hydrogen sulphide** H2S**is a diprotic acid Iron
I try to do easy for you, but if you confound apples with oranges, then eat green salad.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
I think the devices/field talk above is just talking about where the disturbed metal flow makes the toning not just go right up and over the devices if it’s slow more natural toning versus quick AT toning where the toning just goes right up and over the devices. But on the NT toning often doesn’t go onto the devices where the metal flow makes the surface not tone as easy as the fields. Heres an example where 2 coins are both red, but the one that comes from a 1958 mint set has disturbances in the toning on the devices whereas the AT one has toning that just goes right up and over the devices:
And yes, if there is purple present it makes a toned coin questionable because it’s real hard to AT a coin and not get purple. But on many NT coins you can get reds and blues without the purple. It something to do with quick toning not getting separation in the color bands for blue and you usually get some purple with AT. But some NT coins have some purple too, especially if something made the NT happen quick like high temps or humidity, and those end up getting slabbed as Questionable Toning designations. Here’s some AT coins and you can see that purple on most of them:
And here’s a AT coin toned really quickly where I took a picture every few seconds during the toning process. I did it in a way that made the toning uniform on the coin, whereas with lots of AT it’s done in a way to make the rainbow bands appear. But you can see the reddish purple that I’m talking about
You can also see how the toning goes right up and over the devices in the AT coin photos above with no interruption. That’s cause it’s a quick thick layer and the different metal flow of the devices doesn’t impede the toning like it usually does when the toning happens really slowly over several years.
Mr_Spud
I'm a PhD chemist. I know more about sulfide than you do. Your response is totally non-responsive. What is the difference between "natural" sulfide growth and "artificial". Please provide a reference with micrographs.
Exposure to sulfur in a redox reaction will create growth of a metal sulfide.
Now show me a mother-effing micrograph. You've yet to justify your claim that there is a measurable difference.
@jmlanzaf ...I love your response. Signed...PhD Scientist (Me)
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
My typos aside. I would love it, if it's true. But I've never seen any such evidence. I'm open to the possibility, but he hasn't presented any evidence.
As CB would say: good grief.
Smitten with DBLCs.
I've always found it interesting how the toning can be of 1 or 2 or even 3 solid colors and other coins have a multiple of colors which I tend to lean towards more as NT.
Years ago at one of the larger coin shows, came across a dealer who had a number of wildly toned Jefferson nickels and later date Buffalo nickels all with the same toning. He told me that he buys coin albums and folders whenever they come into his store and in one group of albums, the toning was about the the same with most of the coins and had sent a few in for grading. That half came back NT, the other half AT. Needless to say, believing his story because he had the same toned coins both in and out of the holders and that made me a buyer!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
When you start looking at toners in TPG holders, you will see repetitive patterns of toning by series of coin. Learn how the storage environment effect's toning. Was the toning caused by paper, envelope, cigar or jewelry box, wood, album, cardboard flip, cloth, bag, holder, etc. Once you can identify the common toning patterns and colors on the coin by storage environment, it will give you a better chance of purchasing a coin with market acceptable toning.
So true. There is no simple way to determine what the grading companies will conclude when it comes to artificial toning. There are many straight graded examples on the market that would not pass the smell test for inclusion into my collection.
As stated previously, better to buy straight graded coins you like in holders you prefer and then not worry about it!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
My opinion will get you nothing but the coins I collect from the 19th century have probably seen many things . Natural and unnatural. I always assume all Seated coins have had something done to them. Is it Attractive? Acceptable? I just know that most coins tone from the edges in, So no big surprise if a coin has darker toning on the edges . Doesn't make it original or natural or whatever word you like. Just seems to work that way. James
Hi @MercuryFB This is a tough question, and it takes a lot of experience to detect. When I was new to collecting I got burned and bought some artificially toned coins and it almost made me quit the hobby. Maybe this will help. I've posted a 100% natural toned Bust quarter. Notice the colors and the way the toning is laid down on the coin. PS, To be more safe, I would stay with TPG coins, and CAC is helpful as well. Be careful! Best, Eldo.
Everyone, Thanks so much for your feedback. I will probably just keep it because to me it looks great; however, I don't think I will buy anymore graded or raw toned coins. I just looked at a couple toned graded coins on PCGS website first 2 pictures below and the last 2 pictures are PCGS Tone graded MS64 coins that are for sell. To me some of them look similar to mine and a couple look fake as hell to me. They all have purple color in them and a couple look like they have spots. To me they all look artificially toned yet PCGS graded all of these as Naturally toned. It cost too much to take chances. Thanks again!
My coin with questionable color I think looks better and more natural than the 4 graded PCGS coins posted below mine.
PCGS Toned Graded coins below
Do what you need to do.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Sorry for delay but some days I could be busy.
OK mister who like to bullying. First for an PhD the expression "mother-effing" I didn't expected, but freedom of expresssion.
What kind of chemist are you?: un-organic, organic, bio, or maybe nuclear. Sure just one field with knowleadge of the other. As me in my field, I will sign at the end.
First I will put photos and hope will not be annoying for many here, but hope you understand.
This be done let rock.
The S is find more as derivative as nonbinary compound as polyatomic ions SO3 sulfite or SO4(2-) or binary compaund S(2-)
Because you mention the cardbord (paper) what was fund was CaS calcium sulfide Ca2+ and S2-.
In artificial tonning (I talk only about the S compaunds) we fund traces of polysulphide Sn2-, also sulphur oxide as SO2 sulfur dioxide which it is acide anhidride of sulfurous acid and also SO3 sulfur trixide which it is an anhidride od sulfuric acid.
The most oxidizing in the S it is H2S with the redox -0.57V pKa1 close to ionized 80% and 20% un-ionized
H2S has 35uM to 274uM , complex IV
The high oxidation capacity could be understend from the sulfite S= +4 on organic and on inorganic SO4(2-) (S=+6)
On all AT we find traces of iodine.
Thanks, Silvio
PS: the S and the compound was one of my studyies which you can find on the academia, and this because one of the carcinoma causes it is the H2S in mitochondria.
Signed PhD MD Radio-Oncology Obstetric-Genicology, M in Bio-Chemistry and electro-chemistry.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
On this second post, I want to touch NT. I like the previous trade dollard with some green-blue nuances. I never had one silver coin to analize, but on other artifacts silver we find that was develop and has nice waves of tonning due to the cupric sulfide. Some times I see also in combination with blue and show on analizes cupro sulfate.
Those are nice coins for me.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
So far, I have the same question about detecting AT as the other member. I will read what is posted below with micro images at high power. For now I'll say to the other members that HIGH MAGNIFICATION LETS YOU SEE THINGS ON A SURFACE THAT YOU CANNOT IMAGINE. It makes sense to me that aside from unusual colors, patterns, and chem flow barriers easily seen with the naked eye that at powers over 100X there** MAY ** be a difference between AT and NT (both a form of oxidation) that affect the surface in a visible way hidden from normal examination. I was unaware that an SEM could determine the thickness of a film yet the grain size of a crust can be measured.
I'm the buily for asking for proof? You basically called me an idiot for asking the question.
I'm a physical chemist.
On to the science: I don't see any images that are coin related.
How was the AT determination made for the coins prior to imaging?
Why would there be iodine present in all AT? Some AT is just accelerated sulfide growth using the same cardboard that causes NT sulfide growth. There would be no other chemicals present. While the lattice structure could be different, I still haven't seen any such proof from you or anyone else.
If this is so definitive, why don't the TPGs do this?
This is interesting but I don't think the science is as settled as you claim it to be.
So far, I have the same question about detecting AT as the other member. I will read what is posted below with micro images at high power. For now I'll say to the other members that HIGH MAGNIFICATION LETS YOU SEE THINGS ON A SURFACE THAT YOU CANNOT IMAGINE. It makes sense to me that aside from unusual colors, patterns, and chem flow barriers easily seen with the naked eye that at powers over 100X there** MAY ** be a difference between AT and NT (both a form of oxidation) that affect the surface in a visible way hidden from normal examination. I was unaware that an SEM could determine the thickness of a film yet the grain size of a crust can be measured.
I wrote this last night. I still need to read the chemists response. Until then I had another thought. The time it takes a chem reaction such as toning to occur effects the micro changes to the metal . For example the time it takes a metal to crystalize changes the size of the crystals. When we pin down the member making claims about AT and NT with very specific questions we all will either be enlightened or disappointed. We'll see. ANYWAY IT IS NICE TO HAVE KNOWLEDGEABLE MEMBERS TAKE THE TIME TO POST LONG EXPLANITATIONS TO OUR QUESTIONS.
@ jmlanzaf:
Ok, till you will not see, normal to doubt. But thinking of the density of those sulfides or sulfites. What kind it is. Some of them we never find naturally.
I do not think the TPG's will buy SEM.TEM because cost a small fortune and who work with also will cost. Those tests took at least 4 hours and then the human analysis must be done and not only the machine.
Now I have to go back to my work for my self. I will put you here example we use for restoration and analyse with the SEM in order to be able to preserve the age tonning and inhibit future oxidations and also to determine if some artificial interventions was appplyed. All those are mine and the PET boxes ready to took.
Finish wort for this 12th century Mongol tea cup from North China
To finish Gold caruse Sun dinasty midle south of china
and this boll only 4 in the world
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
Very cool
Over 50 years ago, I bought an attractive Walker in a 2 by 2. Forgot about it and got on with my life. 30 plus years later, I took another look at it, wondered it was worth anything, and took it to a coin dealer. It had developed a yellowish silver sulfide tint over this time. Dealer dipped the compound right off, and it's now in an MS 66 holder. Based on this, it appears that sulfides on coins can occur just by leaving them as is.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Yes. It's about the environment they are in. The rate of deposition CAN affect the morphology, but I've never seen definitive proof on coins. [Still haven't. 😉 ]