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Bust Half graded MS63

Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 18, 2024 5:04AM in U.S. Coin Forum

Just curious if anyone here actually agrees with the grade given to this coin?
PCGS 63
It has adjustment marks on the obverse and reverse but aside from that it's pretty much clean. I mean really clean.
Do the adjustment marks hold it as a PCGS 63 or should they be as made and not really considered when grading?
Is it worth sending in for

Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars

Comments

  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Where is that Can of Worms?

    I'm going to respond, because the OP seems like a good guy (we have had a couple brief PM's), and this is a really tough coin for various reasons.

    From the different images I have seen I think the grade is "technically" correct. I do not think it should grade higher, and while I could accept it as a lower grade, it technically isn't any less from what I can see.

    The problem is it has a somewhat to very limited appeal because of the roller marks. These are distracting and reflect negatively on the overall eye-appeal (to me). I expect I am not the only one that feels that way, regardless of how interesting I (and others) find the coin overall. So while it may be mark-free otherwise, "otherwise" is the key word, and the overall eye appeal is what keeps it at 63.

    All my opinion, of course.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even if they don’t negatively impact the grade, the roller marks are a conspicuous distraction. Also, while I can’t tell if it’s just the lighting, there look to be a number of hazy areas on the reverse.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I certainly wouldn’t crack it out.

    My guess is that this coin has already been submitted previously, perhaps multiple times, and this is likely it’s “forever” slab.
    But of course if the OP knows otherwise about the coin’s history, then my apologies.

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not adjustment marks, but roller marks. Adjustment marks were hand cut into the planchet by a file to lower the weight to the correct mint tolerances. Roller lines were rolled into the planchet stock, then the planchets were cut, and ultimately failed to strike out in the design. Adjustment marks are virtually unknown on Capped Bust half dollars, but roller lines can be found with some searching.

    Your example has an extreme case of roller lines. The lines are acceptable if they are on the rim or perhaps slightly affecting some peripheral design detail. Your example unfortunately has the distracting marks right in the focal point of the design.

    From a technical perspective, I think the coin is very good for the grade. Not only is there little to no major contact marks, but the rub on the high points is unseen. If there were no lines, I would expect a gem grade.

    I would be interested in owning a piece like this, despite the distracting marks. Also I am a cheapskate and would pay no premium price for it. :D

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • marcmoishmarcmoish Posts: 6,142 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Crisp clean fields and surfaces, I like it as is, and would not attempt to make any changes at all.

    Enjoy it, nice pc.

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2024 2:13PM

    Thank you guys for the honest answers and for not giving me a hard time.
    I go back and fourth on this coin.
    I want to sell it then I don't want to sell it.
    It's really a nice coin in hand. Another thing I like about this forum is good information.
    I put it out there and get good honest feedback.
    I also learn something too. Roller marks not adjustment marks. To be honest I don't even know where I picked the term up.
    I think I will bring it to some local shows and see if I can't get my money back on it or do some trading.
    It's really the odd coin in my collection.
    Its one of those coins you have to see in person to appreciate. You cannot go by my images.
    Otherwise it's not a bad piece to own. I've seen worse.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These aren't adjustment marks. These are roller marks. They are two very distinct terms that do not mean the same thing. Some issues are very commonly found with roller marks (or roller lines) while others are not. This era for half dollars features a variety of coins that are commonly found with them. They are an as-made feature of the coin.

    Now, the grade. The overall grade would include eye appeal as a fairly large (larger than many folks would admit) component. The coin is graded MS63 and I would not buy it as an MS63 or pay MS63 money for it. Even though it has fairly clean fields, it appears to have a bit of haze on the reverse and the roller marks limit the eye appeal for the greater pool of buyers. However, in my opinion, the coin has been dipped, dipped, dipped and maybe dipped again. That is the real killer for me.

    In my opinion, the coin has found its forever home in this slab, just like a puppy at an animal shelter going to live with a family.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2024 2:24PM

    Sorry @TomB but I cannot agree with you on this coin being dipped or over dipped as you put it. See it anyway you want. Your coming on way to strong with your comments.
    I seldom disagree with people because I would prefer not to be considered abrasive.
    In this case I need to disagree.
    I know what over dipped coins look like all too well from my earlier days of collecting.
    Was it dipped in the past, who knows but over dipped, nope.
    It's in a PCGS holder and I don't imagine that a dead flat coin will grade out as MS.
    Let's just agree to disagree.
    I don't want any trouble and I won't respond to any further talk about its originality.
    My images make it look hazy. It's not in hand. I'll take better images of it when I am able too. Not to prove anything but for the fun of it. FUN.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,411 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2024 4:19PM

    Like it as a PCGS 63. It’s a nice lustrous CH Unc coin.

    Would not crack it out / retail it as it is.

    At that value level probably submitted many times. Take a look at your CDN app and see how it compares to others same grade - auc history.

    Coins & Currency both US and World
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Since it is a mint made defect, the straight grade is appropriate. That said, I’d price it like an UNC details coin if I were contemplating a purchase.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13 said:
    Sorry @TomB but I cannot agree with you on this coin being dipped or over dipped as you put it. See it anyway you want. Your coming on way to strong with your comments.
    I seldom disagree with people because I would prefer not to be considered abrasive.
    In this case I need to disagree.
    I know what over dipped coins look like all too well from my earlier days of collecting.
    Was it dipped in the past, who knows but over dipped, nope.
    It's in a PCGS holder and I don't imagine that a dead flat coin will grade out as MS.
    Let's just agree to disagree.
    I don't want any trouble and I won't respond to any further talk about its originality.
    My images make it look hazy. It's not in hand. I'll take better images of it when I am able too. Not to prove anything but for the fun of it. FUN.

    I'm not attempting to argue with you and I never wrote it was over-dipped. My wording was meant as it has (very) likely been dipped and likely more than one time. That's all. Your first post pointed out its relatively clean fields and you asked if it was a good candidate for reconsideration, hence my reply. It's all good.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • habaracahabaraca Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    Not adjustment marks, but roller marks. Adjustment marks were hand cut into the planchet by a file to lower the weight to the correct mint tolerances. Roller lines were rolled into the planchet stock, then the planchets were cut, and ultimately failed to strike out in the design. Adjustment marks are virtually unknown on Capped Bust half dollars, but roller lines can be found with some searching.

    Your example has an extreme case of roller lines. The lines are acceptable if they are on the rim or perhaps slightly affecting some peripheral design detail. Your example unfortunately has the distracting marks right in the focal point of the design.

    From a technical perspective, I think the coin is very good for the grade. Not only is there little to no major contact marks, but the rub on the high points is unseen. If there were no lines, I would expect a gem grade.

    I would be interested in owning a piece like this, despite the distracting marks. Also I am a cheapskate and would pay no premium price for it. :D

    Chase don't you have a nice example of these roller marks??

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Send it into CAC. If you get a bean that might suggest you are more right than wrong. If you don’t get a bean that tells you something else…

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @habaraca You should know by now we are BOTH cheapskates :p You sold me that lovely piece for a good price:)

    Funfact: I've been keeping track of all roller marks on bust halves that have passed through Ebay the past couple years. Most, if not all, were on early to mid 1830s examples.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • RobertScotLoverRobertScotLover Posts: 503 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2024 12:20AM

    Whether u send in to CAC or not I would sell it and find a more original and beautifully toned au58 if money is an issue or a ms63 if it ain't, oh and one without any neg distractions

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