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Nolan Ryan or Steve Carlton?

doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭✭

Random baseball thread, who was the better pitcher, Nolan Ryan or Steve Carlton?

Comments

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,470 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Steve Carlton

    Debate over.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll tell you one thing, Nolan Ryan was one bad MF.

    https://youtu.be/0aJPqaG5_GI?si=dGKUXpHXf25Vvf3G

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 7,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nolan. He was one pitcher,when I had the chance, would never miss seeing him pitch.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2024 12:50PM

    Love this card I ran across today on the bay. It's just a bad a.. image of Ryan.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ryan

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • GroceryRackPackGroceryRackPack Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ryan & Carlton were two of my starters during my Cadaco All Star Baseball playing days... :)

  • LandrysFedoraLandrysFedora Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's their career stats comparison. You decide.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,267 ✭✭✭✭✭

    man they are close. If nolan just had better control. I think I would have to say carlton because of the cy youngs.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭✭

    Ryan. Cy Youngs are far to subjectiveof who people like the best. Ryan finished 5th in the 1987 CY vote because he was 8-16 when he had the lowest era for starters and lead the league in strikeouts. You could maybe make an argument for Oral that year, but the Cy Young winner Steve Bedrosian really wasnt that impressive given hes was a reviler. Countless relievers have have far better seasons and not gotten the CY. 1981 The only argument against Ryan was lack of Innings and it wasnt that big of a gap, 1977 another popularity contest winner

    GG shouldnt be considered ever thats even worse

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,470 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:
    Ryan. Cy Youngs are far to subjectiveof who people like the best. Ryan finished 5th in the 1987 CY vote because he was 8-16 when he had the lowest era for starters and lead the league in strikeouts. You could maybe make an argument for Oral that year, but the Cy Young winner Steve Bedrosian really wasnt that impressive given hes was a reviler. Countless relievers have have far better seasons and not gotten the CY. 1981 The only argument against Ryan was lack of Innings and it wasnt that big of a gap, 1977 another popularity contest winner

    GG shouldnt be considered ever thats even worse

    "Cy Youngs are far to subjective of who people like the best."

    Very bad example for this thread comparison.

    Steve Carlton didn't even speak to the media for years. Literally no interviews, nothing. So they couldn't have liked him too much, certainly not "the best."

    But they voted for Carlton anyway to receive 4 Cy Young awards despite all that.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nolan Ryan was a savage.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,267 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:
    Ryan. Cy Youngs are far to subjectiveof who people like the best. Ryan finished 5th in the 1987 CY vote because he was 8-16 when he had the lowest era for starters and lead the league in strikeouts. You could maybe make an argument for Oral that year, but the Cy Young winner Steve Bedrosian really wasnt that impressive given hes was a reviler. Countless relievers have have far better seasons and not gotten the CY. 1981 The only argument against Ryan was lack of Innings and it wasnt that big of a gap, 1977 another popularity contest winner

    GG shouldnt be considered ever thats even worse

    "Countless relievers"

    nope, there have hardly ever been a reliever who has deserved a cy young award. they do not work enough innings.

    there can be arguments about cy young winners, and it being a popularity contest, but in these two pitcher's cases, it isn't close, 4-0. there was a significant difference in innings in 1981. 40 innings in a strike-shortened season is very significant. 2 pitchers ahead of ryan in 81 had that many more than ryan.

    look at cy young award shares. carlton is 7th all time while ryan is 41st. ryan played a few more seasons as well.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Carlton

    Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!

    Ignore list -Basebal21

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As a Phillies fan since 1959, Super Steve Carlton.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    Ryan. Cy Youngs are far to subjectiveof who people like the best. Ryan finished 5th in the 1987 CY vote because he was 8-16 when he had the lowest era for starters and lead the league in strikeouts. You could maybe make an argument for Oral that year, but the Cy Young winner Steve Bedrosian really wasnt that impressive given hes was a reviler. Countless relievers have have far better seasons and not gotten the CY. 1981 The only argument against Ryan was lack of Innings and it wasnt that big of a gap, 1977 another popularity contest winner

    GG shouldnt be considered ever thats even worse

    "Cy Youngs are far to subjective of who people like the best."

    Very bad example for this thread comparison.

    Steve Carlton didn't even speak to the media for years. Literally no interviews, nothing. So they couldn't have liked him too much, certainly not "the best."

    But they voted for Carlton anyway to receive 4 Cy Young awards despite all that.

    Steve, that was my first thought. If it was a popularity contest then Ryan would have won many of them. Nobody was more popular than him except maybe Seaver and he deserved his cy youngs.
    Ryan was simply never the best pitcher in the league for even a single season unlike Carlton.
    Steve Carlton is my vote.

    DISCLAIMER FOR BASEBAL21
    In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
  • DarinDarin Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just an example of how popular Ryan is…….. DD started the thread and is as fair minded as anyone. Since his first post he’s posted 3 times about Ryan, 0 about Carlton.
    So that’s generally how the sportswriter’s and voters felt about Ryan also, yet 0 cy young’s for Nolan.
    He was most popular, just not most valuable.

    DISCLAIMER FOR BASEBAL21
    In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
  • GroceryRackPackGroceryRackPack Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    Nolan Ryan was a savage.

    was that the game where Nolan beat up Robin Ventura???

  • GroceryRackPackGroceryRackPack Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GroceryRackPack said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Nolan Ryan was a savage.

    was that the game where Nolan beat up Robin Ventura???

    Nope, different game, @Darin is right, I'm a Ryan popularity addict!

  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2024 10:15AM

    Ryan was tough no doubt and Ventura got roughed up there. However, gotta be fair and post that Ryan was manhandled a bit and rattled when Winfield came at him. Can't blame him for being rattled with Big Dave coming at you though. Best part was Winfield just moving the catcher away with one arm, and then the ump too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2ItlQnDaNs

    Carlton gets the slight edge over Ryan.

    Ryan being able to pitch better in his 40's than Carlton made it closer than their primes really were.

    For instance, Ryan's best(qualifying 162 IP) year in ERA+ was 142.
    Carlton beat Ryan's best season five different times.

    Through their age 40 season Carlton had 4,879 IP with a 121 ERA+
    Ryan through age 40 had 4,326 with a 112 ERA+

    Gotta give Ryan credit for being so good in his 40's though.

    So in the end they finished with nearly the same Innings with Carlton edging him 115 to 112 in ERA+

    So it ended up pretty close, but Carlton's elite years most likely gives him the edge in an otherwise close battle.

    If both those guys came up now, I would take Ryan because you can't teach his raw stuff(backed with results too), as his command most likely would have been harnessed much sooner(partly because of Ryan's work himself on honing his mechanics to gain more command). So if Ryan had a 'Ryan' example to fall back on now, he would have been better quicker. Ryan is a pioneer.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    Ryan. Cy Youngs are far to subjectiveof who people like the best. Ryan finished 5th in the 1987 CY vote because he was 8-16 when he had the lowest era for starters and lead the league in strikeouts. You could maybe make an argument for Oral that year, but the Cy Young winner Steve Bedrosian really wasnt that impressive given hes was a reviler. Countless relievers have have far better seasons and not gotten the CY. 1981 The only argument against Ryan was lack of Innings and it wasnt that big of a gap, 1977 another popularity contest winner

    GG shouldnt be considered ever thats even worse

    "Countless relievers"

    nope, there have hardly ever been a reliever who has deserved a cy young award. they do not work enough innings.

    there can be arguments about cy young winners, and it being a popularity contest, but in these two pitcher's cases, it isn't close, 4-0. there was a significant difference in innings in 1981. 40 innings in a strike-shortened season is very significant. 2 pitchers ahead of ryan in 81 had that many more than ryan.

    look at cy young award shares. carlton is 7th all time while ryan is 41st. ryan played a few more seasons as well.

    
    

    I dont believe relievers should get CY Youngs ever, they dont impact on enough of the game although my opinion may change in the future given that starters are starting to be used more like relievers now. What I said was the reliever who won the CY over Ryan wasnt anything special, countless relievers have had better seasons than he did yet for some reason he won the CY over Ryan

    We can even go as far in the future as 2005 when Rodger Clemens was 13-8 with a 1.87 era over 211.1 innings yet finished third in the CY voting behind Dontrell and Carpenter just because they won 20+ games and he didnt despite basically every number and every metric saying Clemens was the best. \

    Thats long after Ryan retired and there were still to many people voting based off record along. These awards historically have always had qualifiers on them and it has gotten better, but its still there. MVP has long been whose the best player on a playoff team, CY what pitcher has the best record etc especially back in those days. Theyve never really truly been who was the best pitcher or player. They would also punish you in voting if your team had a bad record which is why comparing players by awards really doesnt work

  • Jack131Jack131 Posts: 60 ✭✭

    For a single game, definitely Nolan Ryan.
    For a single season, probably Nolan Ryan.
    For their careers, probably Steve Carlton.

  • EchoCanyonEchoCanyon Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭

    Carlton.
    But Ryan's cards are worth way more.

  • SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 5,078 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Without Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson wouldn't have had anywhere close to the career he had. He was wild as hell until he sat down with Ryan, and got pointers; turning around his career.

    Steve

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 7,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Always watched Ryan for a no-hitter potential or high strikeout total for the game.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,267 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Carlton definitely had a better peak. He had some great seasons. 1972 was nuts. almost 350 innings and a 1.91 ERA.

    Ryan was a much better pitcher in his 40s so there is a perception amongst the masses that he was the best. That and Carlton was so prickly

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

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