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Beware Re Coin Grading

I had three coins returned from grading. Two were labeled Au92 Details. Deemed not able to grade by PCGS as they decided the coins had been cleaned. I was charged for grading however. So any coin labeled 92 is code for cleaned.
The coins had lain in a safe deposit box for at least 60 years and were never cleaned after removal from the box. Not even a drop of acetone was applied. Charged for no service it seems.

Comments

  • baddogssbaddogss Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @flyguyfl can you post some pictures of the coins in question?

    Thank you PCGS for the Forums! ANA # 3150931 - Successful BST with: Bah1513, ckeusa, coin22lover, coinsarefun, DCW, guitarwes, SLQ, Sunshine Rare Coin, tmot99, Tdec1000, dmarks, Flatwoods, Wondercoin, Yorkshireman
    Sugar magnolia blossoms blooming, heads all empty and I don't care ...
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭

    Just because they weren't cleaned after being removed from the box, does not mean they weren't cleaned before entering the box.

    Lurking and learning since 2010
  • FrazFraz Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The results of my submissions disappointed me also. I didn’t know what I was doing though.

  • RobertScotLoverRobertScotLover Posts: 503 ✭✭✭✭

    Lets see who has more credibility, a grading company that has been around since the '80's and is still going strong or a poster who has been posting for a extremely short amount of time, makes a statement that proves his newbeeness (if there is such a word) and on top of that provides zero evidence ie photos of said coin(s).
    So who is one to believe here, him or them............no brainer I will take PCGS for $50

  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 118 ✭✭✭

    @flyguyfl said:
    I had three coins returned from grading. Two were labeled Au92 Details. Deemed not able to grade by PCGS as they decided the coins had been cleaned. I was charged for grading however. So any coin labeled 92 is code for cleaned.
    The coins had lain in a safe deposit box for at least 60 years and were never cleaned after removal from the box. Not even a drop of acetone was applied. Charged for no service it seems.

    Let's see, 2024 -60 = 1964 when they were put into the box. Just in cause you owned them for 10 years prior and never cleaned them, that's 1954 before you ever saw the coins SO...

    I'm going to guess your coins are dated sometime before 1954. Is it possible that someone cleaned them before you bought them? Apparently, that is the opinion of PCGS. Now your job is to see how to ID a cleaned coin. Post some images taken in different positions under the light and we can try to help.

  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • Insider3Insider3 Posts: 118 ✭✭✭

    @Fraz said:
    The results of my submissions disappointed me also. I didn’t know what I was doing though.

    Perhaps the person you bought the coin from didn't know what they were doing. This is very common. That is why any of you collectors reading this thread SHOULD TAKE OUT YOUR WALLET AND HAVE SOME OF YOUR "GEMS" GRADED by a TPGS to see how you are doing. If you cannot grade accurately, ONLY BUY GRADED COINS from one of the FOUR MOST POPULAR :p grading services.

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,310 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS renders an opinion, for a fee. I really don't see a problem here.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pictures would help. I have sent in a couple coins in the past that I was surprised when they details graded but once I really looked at the closely I agreed. Didn't like it but agreed.

    K

    ANA LM
  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @flyguyfl said:
    I had three coins returned from grading. Two were labeled Au92 Details. Deemed not able to grade by PCGS as they decided the coins had been cleaned. I was charged for grading however. So any coin labeled 92 is code for cleaned.
    The coins had lain in a safe deposit box for at least 60 years and were never cleaned after removal from the box. Not even a drop of acetone was applied. Charged for no service it seems.

    They were likely cleaned before being put in the box. You'll hear the term 'old cleaning' in numismatics frequently. It usually refers to a cleaning done decades ago, even 60+ years. Back then, it wasn't as frowned upon as it is now, which is why uncleaned examples go for so much more money- there just aren't as many of them around.

    As for being charged for the grading, you got what you paid for. Determining if a coin has been cleaned or not is part of the overall grading opinion you paid for and were given.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tough crowd today

    Let’s see some photos please.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,184 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beware posting in anger.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:
    Heather Rules! Perhaps more of our old friends should try to come back. I went through all the stages of being banned:

    1. What the heck!
    2. You got to be kidding. :o
    3. Oops, I broke the rules - ah, three times. :(
    4. Oh come on. Those posters didn't have a clue about the truth (now confirmed) concerning COVID! :s
    5. Resignation.
    6. Who fives a flying _____! It's CU's loss. :p

    Several months later:

    1. I wonder what's going on at CU? <3
    2. What the heck am I reading and not being able to post. :o:s:'(

    Years later:

    1. I've >:) got to get on that forum <3 again. o:)
    2. Bingo! :)B)

    how not to be an alt

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    https://www.pcgs.com/grades

    click on "No Grades" on the right. FYI, a 96'd coin gets charged for everything but the fees tied to grading. the other codes you pay for their evaluation(grading}

    fwiw, the 96'd coin shown is an ancient coin from a few hundred years BC. PCGS doesn't do ancients. thus it was easy to return as "no service"

    but truly i can't believe you didn't know and am wondering if i'm being trolled

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • FrazFraz Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @Fraz said:
    The results of my submissions disappointed me also. I didn’t know what I was doing though.

    Perhaps the person you bought the coin from didn't know what they were doing. This is very common. That is why any of you collectors reading this thread SHOULD TAKE OUT YOUR WALLET AND HAVE SOME OF YOUR "GEMS" GRADED by a TPGS to see how you are doing. If you cannot grade accurately, ONLY BUY GRADED COINS from one of the FOUR MOST POPULAR :p grading services.

    Nobody’s fault but mine. I picked from sealed mint sets. You gotta do both, learn to grade, buy a couple to study at.
    .

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2024 5:53PM

    If they didn't charge for cleaned, artificially toned, and other problem coins it would be an invitation for everyone to try their hand at coin doctoring and other shenanigans.

    It has been said that almost every coin over 100 years old has been cleaned. If even one of those old cleanings were bad then the coin would most probably still appear to be cleaned. Some people pull out abrasive cleaners and wire brushes. Then there are others who try to mitigate the damage caused by improper cleaning and usually with only partial success.

    Bad cleaning can be very hard to spot even for professionals. It can be tough to tell what caused a coin to look the way it does. It can even be hard to tell if a coin is uncirculated or not. It's not impossible the graders were wrong but it's quite unlikely.

    Tempus fugit.
  • vplite99vplite99 Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This thread is useless without pictures

    Vplite99
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @vplite99 said:
    This thread is useless without pictures

    It’s possible that pictures wouldn’t even help. Often, in order to detect cleaning, a viewer needs to be able to tilt and rotate the coin under a light.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know it's hard to accept getting a coin back as cleaned details.
    It's happened to me.
    I used the right tools which are at my disposal. Use a loupe or maybe a microscope.
    I guarantee you that you will find hairlines or something that indicates a cleaning.
    It could even be a small spot that someone tried to remove something.
    It doesn't need to be the whole coin.
    Complaing won't change things.
    Someone on here once said to me- "you paid for and opinion and you got it".
    Numerical grades can be argued but a coin cleaning cannot.
    It's that simple.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,184 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    I know it's hard to accept getting a coin back as cleaned details.
    It's happened to me.
    I used the right tools which are at my disposal. Use a loupe or maybe a microscope.
    I guarantee you that you will find hairlines or something that indicates a cleaning.
    It could even be a small spot that someone tried to remove something.
    It doesn't need to be the whole coin.
    Complaing won't change things.
    Someone on here once said to me- "you paid for and opinion and you got it".
    Numerical grades can be argued but a coin cleaning cannot.
    It's that simple.

    A microscope isn’t needed to detect cleaning of any significance, that would cause a coin to receive a details-grade.
    And in a sense, sometimes details-grade cleaning can be argued. What I mean by that is the decision to label a coin as “cleaned/improperly cleaned” can be just as subjective and inconsistent as the choice of what numerical grade to assign.
    Coins are cleaned by different means and to varying degrees. Many of us have seen large numbers of straight-grade coins with more conspicuous cleaning than appears on some details-grade, “cleaned/improperly cleaned” coins.
    Additionally, many details-grade “cleaned/improperly cleaned” coins have been cracked out, resubmitted and straight graded. Conversely, some straight grade coins are cracked out, resubmitted and receive “cleaned/improperly cleaned” details grades.

    Said another way: you can argue about anything.

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,015 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Said another way: you can argue about anything.

    No, you can't.
    Wanna bet?

    I'll see myself out, there are dishes to wash

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,573 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I buy collections all the time, sometimes they have been in a box, storage for decades, some are cleaned, people cleaned coins years ago as well. Also, to the untrained eye, the coin can take on some toning or aging that covers the evidence of cleaning from long time storage. As far as PCGS, they provided a service, even though you don't agree with outcome,
    And as far as thei grading, IMO they have been pretty consistant overall, most of the stuff that I submit comes back exactly what I thought it would, on occasions just a touch better. Once in a while Ill get one back not so, and Ill look at it again, and usually see something I missed.

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,468 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Morgan13 said:
    I know it's hard to accept getting a coin back as cleaned details.
    It's happened to me.
    I used the right tools which are at my disposal. Use a loupe or maybe a microscope.
    I guarantee you that you will find hairlines or something that indicates a cleaning.
    It could even be a small spot that someone tried to remove something.
    It doesn't need to be the whole coin.
    Complaing won't change things.
    Someone on here once said to me- "you paid for and opinion and you got it".
    Numerical grades can be argued but a coin cleaning cannot.
    It's that simple.

    A microscope isn’t needed to detect cleaning of any significance, that would cause a coin to receive a details-grade.
    And in a sense, sometimes details-grade cleaning can be argued. What I mean by that is the decision to label a coin as “cleaned/improperly cleaned” can be just as subjective and inconsistent as the choice of what numerical grade to assign.
    Coins are cleaned by different means and to varying degrees. Many of us have seen large numbers of straight-grade coins with more conspicuous cleaning than appears on some details-grade, “cleaned/improperly cleaned” coins.
    Additionally, many details-grade “cleaned/improperly cleaned” coins have been cracked out, resubmitted and straight graded. Conversely, some straight grade coins are cracked out, resubmitted and receive “cleaned/improperly cleaned” details grades.

    Said another way: you can argue about anything.

    Oh the irony. ;)

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 8,973 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Their probably does not exist a better forum for this very question and this is it. As said, you should have previewed your coin here before sending it in for grading. Also, as previously stated, learn to grade coins and especially cleaning results. Best of luck in the future, but please rethink your misplaced anger towards PCGS. Also, NO advice in a coins cleaning without photos. I would have hoped that you provided photos, but evidently not.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Beware posting in anger.

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