Beware Re Coin Grading
flyguyfl
Posts: 127 ✭✭
I had three coins returned from grading. Two were labeled Au92 Details. Deemed not able to grade by PCGS as they decided the coins had been cleaned. I was charged for grading however. So any coin labeled 92 is code for cleaned.
The coins had lain in a safe deposit box for at least 60 years and were never cleaned after removal from the box. Not even a drop of acetone was applied. Charged for no service it seems.
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Comments
@flyguyfl can you post some pictures of the coins in question?
Sugar magnolia blossoms blooming, heads all empty and I don't care ...
The coins may have been cleaned well before they were placed in the safe deposit box. Coin cleaning as been around as long as there have been collectors.
The effects of cleaning never go away. A piece that has been improperly cleaned with hairlines or polishing resulting might only be fixed by wearing the surface to a lower grade. Even then it's hard to make that wear look natural.
Without photos, it is impossible to provide an opinion to you. Years ago, if a coin was rejected for cleaning, you got nothing for your money. The coin came back in a "body bag" and was not in a slab that stated it was genuine. Now a days a rare coin that is officially declared "genuine" can still be quite valuable. I have been amazed at the prices realized for some of these pieces which have made it into "platinum night" auction sales.
You paid for PCGS service and received it - you just didn't like the opinions you received. That's very different from not getting service. If you thought that non-gradable coins would not be charged a fee, you were mistaken.
A more accurate thread title would be “Beware Re Cleaned Coins”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Just because they weren't cleaned after being removed from the box, does not mean they weren't cleaned before entering the box.
Advice on the forum is free. Why not get the free assessment first, before you pay for it?
The results of my submissions disappointed me also. I didn’t know what I was doing though.
Lets see who has more credibility, a grading company that has been around since the '80's and is still going strong or a poster who has been posting for a extremely short amount of time, makes a statement that proves his newbeeness (if there is such a word) and on top of that provides zero evidence ie photos of said coin(s).
So who is one to believe here, him or them............no brainer I will take PCGS for $50
Let's see, 2024 -60 = 1964 when they were put into the box. Just in cause you owned them for 10 years prior and never cleaned them, that's 1954 before you ever saw the coins SO...
I'm going to guess your coins are dated sometime before 1954. Is it possible that someone cleaned them before you bought them? Apparently, that is the opinion of PCGS. Now your job is to see how to ID a cleaned coin. Post some images taken in different positions under the light and we can try to help.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Perhaps the person you bought the coin from didn't know what they were doing. This is very common. That is why any of you collectors reading this thread SHOULD TAKE OUT YOUR WALLET AND HAVE SOME OF YOUR "GEMS" GRADED by a TPGS to see how you are doing. If you cannot grade accurately, ONLY BUY GRADED COINS from one of the FOUR MOST POPULAR
grading services.
PCGS renders an opinion, for a fee. I really don't see a problem here.
Dave
Pictures would help. I have sent in a couple coins in the past that I was surprised when they details graded but once I really looked at the closely I agreed. Didn't like it but agreed.
K
@Insider3 - I only know you from reading old posts and a little bit from the CAC forum but I'm happy you're back. Even the newer, gentler, Prozac you is a delightful rollercoaster in only the best ways
Heather Rules! Perhaps more of our old friends should try to come back. I went through all the stages of being banned:
Several months later:
Years later:
They were likely cleaned before being put in the box. You'll hear the term 'old cleaning' in numismatics frequently. It usually refers to a cleaning done decades ago, even 60+ years. Back then, it wasn't as frowned upon as it is now, which is why uncleaned examples go for so much more money- there just aren't as many of them around.
As for being charged for the grading, you got what you paid for. Determining if a coin has been cleaned or not is part of the overall grading opinion you paid for and were given.
Tough crowd today
Let’s see some photos please.
Beware posting in anger.
how not to be an alt
https://www.pcgs.com/grades
click on "No Grades" on the right. FYI, a 96'd coin gets charged for everything but the fees tied to grading. the other codes you pay for their evaluation(grading}
fwiw, the 96'd coin shown is an ancient coin from a few hundred years BC. PCGS doesn't do ancients. thus it was easy to return as "no service"
but truly i can't believe you didn't know and am wondering if i'm being trolled
Nobody’s fault but mine. I picked from sealed mint sets. You gotta do both, learn to grade, buy a couple to study at.
.
If they didn't charge for cleaned, artificially toned, and other problem coins it would be an invitation for everyone to try their hand at coin doctoring and other shenanigans.
It has been said that almost every coin over 100 years old has been cleaned. If even one of those old cleanings were bad then the coin would most probably still appear to be cleaned. Some people pull out abrasive cleaners and wire brushes. Then there are others who try to mitigate the damage caused by improper cleaning and usually with only partial success.
Bad cleaning can be very hard to spot even for professionals. It can be tough to tell what caused a coin to look the way it does. It can even be hard to tell if a coin is uncirculated or not. It's not impossible the graders were wrong but it's quite unlikely.
This thread is useless without pictures
It’s possible that pictures wouldn’t even help. Often, in order to detect cleaning, a viewer needs to be able to tilt and rotate the coin under a light.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I know it's hard to accept getting a coin back as cleaned details.
It's happened to me.
I used the right tools which are at my disposal. Use a loupe or maybe a microscope.
I guarantee you that you will find hairlines or something that indicates a cleaning.
It could even be a small spot that someone tried to remove something.
It doesn't need to be the whole coin.
Complaing won't change things.
Someone on here once said to me- "you paid for and opinion and you got it".
Numerical grades can be argued but a coin cleaning cannot.
It's that simple.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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A microscope isn’t needed to detect cleaning of any significance, that would cause a coin to receive a details-grade.
And in a sense, sometimes details-grade cleaning can be argued. What I mean by that is the decision to label a coin as “cleaned/improperly cleaned” can be just as subjective and inconsistent as the choice of what numerical grade to assign.
Coins are cleaned by different means and to varying degrees. Many of us have seen large numbers of straight-grade coins with more conspicuous cleaning than appears on some details-grade, “cleaned/improperly cleaned” coins.
Additionally, many details-grade “cleaned/improperly cleaned” coins have been cracked out, resubmitted and straight graded. Conversely, some straight grade coins are cracked out, resubmitted and receive “cleaned/improperly cleaned” details grades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Said another way: you can argue about anything.
No, you can't.
Wanna bet?
I'll see myself out, there are dishes to wash
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I buy collections all the time, sometimes they have been in a box, storage for decades, some are cleaned, people cleaned coins years ago as well. Also, to the untrained eye, the coin can take on some toning or aging that covers the evidence of cleaning from long time storage. As far as PCGS, they provided a service, even though you don't agree with outcome,
And as far as thei grading, IMO they have been pretty consistant overall, most of the stuff that I submit comes back exactly what I thought it would, on occasions just a touch better. Once in a while Ill get one back not so, and Ill look at it again, and usually see something I missed.
Oh the irony.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Their probably does not exist a better forum for this very question and this is it. As said, you should have previewed your coin here before sending it in for grading. Also, as previously stated, learn to grade coins and especially cleaning results. Best of luck in the future, but please rethink your misplaced anger towards PCGS. Also, NO advice in a coins cleaning without photos. I would have hoped that you provided photos, but evidently not.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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