@cameonut2011 said:
What does the resume of the higher paid graders look like and how long does it take to get there? It could be a fun retirement job.
It’s not necessarily about resumes. Often, the really sharp graders become well known on the bourse floors and to the grading companies.
Looking auction lots in darkened room under 100 watt bulbs makes my eyes fall out. It's not the way I learned to grade. I'd last an hour or so.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@cameonut2011 said:
What does the resume of the higher paid graders look like and how long does it take to get there? It could be a fun retirement job.
From what I understand, most of these sizable salaries we are reading about are a relic of a bygone area. I’ve heard that the corporate business model went a different direction in recent years… but I can’t speak with any certainty on the subject.
@cameonut2011 said:
What does the resume of the higher paid graders look like and how long does it take to get there? It could be a fun retirement job.
It’s not necessarily about resumes. Often, the really sharp graders become well known on the bourse floors and to the grading companies.
Is there an age cut off?
Not that I’m aware of.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@cameonut2011 said:
What does the resume of the higher paid graders look like and how long does it take to get there? It could be a fun retirement job.
It’s not necessarily about resumes. Often, the really sharp graders become well known on the bourse floors and to the grading companies.
Is there an age cut off?
There's probably an age at which somebody doesn't want to start at an entry level job... But the TPGs putting an age guideline on the job is in violation of all sorts of fair employment laws.
@cameonut2011 said:
What does the resume of the higher paid graders look like and how long does it take to get there? It could be a fun retirement job.
J.P Martin posted his resume above. He said forty years. The people who started PCGS and their graders were successful coin dealers. The guys at the new CACG might be the highest paid. Look at their qualifications. It is my personal opinion that anyone starting from scratch today who is not activly being trained to grade and authenticate coins by one of the top professional numismatists or dealers would NEVERbe ready to step into that position even with twenty years of intense personal study. They would not be able to examine enough coins.
Nevertheless, where there is a will there is a way. I don't know your age but you must start working at a coin shop - even for free. You must start taking lessons from the ANA. Summer Seminar is the best but take the Correspondence Courses FIRST. I attended a few summers. Find mentors in coin clubs, read, and join all the coin chat rooms. This one is very advanced. I studied and learned a lot after being burned at the start of my forty plus years of collecting; but when I joind here as a "lurker" I realized that I din't have the "gravitas" to post for a long time. When I did start posting my opinions, one long-time professional grader and his friends made fun of me. LOL, now I really enjoy being being "blasted" by the experts and told what I cannot post. Good luck.
PS Unless you have the "cred" of a successful, famous, expert in a particular field, I find it very hard to believe that any top three TPGS would hire any old person after they retire.
Thanks again. I just figured out how to see all of your old posts! I'm going to read them all. I cannot wait to see all the new discoveries you have made that are not already publicized in books or Variety Vista! I'm going to start focusing on Washington quarters again. There is just too much to know in every series to become an expert Cherrypicker such as yourself with the quarter series. I have found a few transitional Rosevelt dimes. Then I'm going to start reading all the old posts from my favorite 5 star posters such as Mark Feld.
PS The thing is, if no one really knows about these rare coins(like your 25c) they are relatively worthless except to the true numismatists. For example, in my younger days, before they became sought after, I had to beg a knowledgeable dealer who sold varieties to buy two 1916/16 Buffalo nickels (a good and a VG) from me because they were "worthless" at the time.
MarK Feld is correct,
There are many excellent graders in the field, most of their resumes are not great focus on the Benjamins. Their skills benefit their cohort, company, and grading services.
Many specialists have skills equal or greater than the most seasoned grading service experts. That is why they all use consultants.
Once you start adding up the different skill levels and experiences you begin to see how small a field of world class really is.
Let's say there are 50,000 investors and collectors that can accurately grade in their chosen area of expertise. Now say 5000 people who are very good at their trade and may make a comfortable living in the coin trade in this country. Brick and mortar, ebay. vest pockets
weekend warriors, wholesalers, auctions, etc. Now lets start whittling it down.
50,000 Collectors/ investors good graders in specific areas
5000 - Very good graders - professionals
3000 - Can attribute most coins- no reference material
2000 -That have above average TGS returns
1000 - Graders that share their knowledge
500 Full time loners - vest-pocket
300 GUYS ON COIN BOARDS
100 Wholesalers that commonly make rips off dealers
75 People that wish they had chosen a different career path
50 People that are pretty sharp but have better job non coins
25 Graders that I'd buy a beer for
5 Graders that have a firm grasp of authentication
5 Graders that have personally Certified 5 million coins
2 Graders proficient in US., foreign, ancients
0 Graders that can do it all
0 Graders that have personally certified 10 million coins
1 Graders that claim to have personally certified 10 million coins
WHERE DO YOU FIT IN?
As far as graders with 40 years certification experience:
Anacs 2
NGC 1
PCGS 0
CAC 0
ICG 1
UPDATE; Almost forgot Skip Fazzari, one of the earliest graders
The sticker game is such a curious phenomena. As originally conceived, A way to extract
extra money for those coins that are premium for the grade. What a golden goose! Talk about a low cost, high reward. An opinion backed by nothing! The authentication, Grading, Attribution is already guaranteed. The cost of it is a sticker!
The origin of the whole "plus" system are questionable as well. The rumor is that large numismatic promoter was sued for selling coins at, let's say a premium that could not be defended in court and lost.
The grading services were then approached and were told if you give me a reason to legally charge a premium, we will submit x number of coins, The
'"plus" service was born.
When they decided to compete as a full service the gloves came off.
@KOYNGUY said:
As far as graders with 40 years certification experience:
Anacs 2
NGC 1
PCGS 0
CAC 0
ICG 0
And I trained one of the 2 guys at ANACS, who probably trained you, and I also trained the guy at NGC. I must have done something right!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@cameonut2011 said:
What does the resume of the higher paid graders look like and how long does it take to get there? It could be a fun retirement job.
It’s not necessarily about resumes. Often, the really sharp graders become well known on the bourse floors and to the grading companies.
Is there an age cut off?
There's probably an age at which somebody doesn't want to start at an entry level job... But the TPGs putting an age guideline on the job is in violation of all sorts of fair employment laws.
TPG grader job is akin to air traffic controller job where mandatory retirement age is 56. Life and death decisions are made daily by the professional grader just like air traffic controllers do, so the 56 age might be good number for a grader to be shown the door by the TPG powers that be.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The average age in the ANACS grading is in the 60's, so I am glad I am not in the airline
Industry. But I am sure we older guys would blow their doors off!
@cameonut2011 said:
What does the resume of the higher paid graders look like and how long does it take to get there? It could be a fun retirement job.
It’s not necessarily about resumes. Often, the really sharp graders become well known on the bourse floors and to the grading companies.
Is there an age cut off?
There's probably an age at which somebody doesn't want to start at an entry level job... But the TPGs putting an age guideline on the job is in violation of all sorts of fair employment laws.
TPG grader job is akin to air traffic controller job where mandatory retirement age is 56. Life and death decisions are made daily by the professional grader just like air traffic controllers do, so the 56 age might be good number for a grader to be shown the door by the TPG powers that be.
True. My whole family was lost when an overgraded Trade Dollar crashed into a 747 at SFO...I was the only survivor...
@Insider3 said:
There is some serious misinformation in this thread posted by people who should know better.
I'm going to give them some time to correct the record.
It probably would not be wise for the "new" me to comment further in this thread at this time. Wait for it.
Steady as she goes Captain. Don't sink the ship too soon.
TRUE DAT! I need to wait a few more days before correcting the record. Propagandists know that if you tell a lie for a long time, eventually folks believe it. I remember it took us almost two decades to get "America's first TPGS" corrected to "America's OLDEST TPGS" yet many don't understand why the change.
ANACS and ICG are the only TPGS's that have two graders with over 40,000 hours of hands-on experience. AT least one of them has a minimum of 20,000 hours studying the surfaces of coins using a microscope. I think 10,000 hours is considered enough to have a good grasp of any vocation.
Coin authenticators in this country came from two roots that I will write about one day.
US Mint technicians/authenticators = Hoskins = Fazzari.
Hancock, Fleishman = Hunter = ? (Tom Delory can possibly add a timeline as to when the REAL "BRAIN TRUST" was assembled).
Nevertheless, by the mid-1980s group #2 was on par with group #1 but Hoskins and I didn't know it. IMO, dissolving that "brain trust" (various reasons) at ANACS which included Fahey, Montgomery, Martin and several others was a huge mistake. I reached this conclusion when I traveled to CO and took their Authentication Test. At the time, because of their past performance, I had little respect for the ANACS Authenticators. When I took the test they had a Bay State C/F, a damaged gold pattern, lots of what I considered to be deceptive fakes to most professional coin dealers. Thus, I answered the questions as I thought inexperienced authenticators would; figuring after I was hired I could teach the guys something. LOL. How is that for dumb arrogance? Well, Mary and Brian took me to lunch and I asked them to see the test so I could show them the correct answers. No dice. Anyway, I learned later that I flunked the test. To peers like Bonser, and Randy I was a dunce! Looking back, I'm glad I was not hired because ANACS was sold. I'm unhappy that I soiled my reputation by being so ignorant and smug. The joke to this story comes around to its beginning. While being on a one week trial for a position at NGC, they were unsure about a 1796 half dollar that I knew immediately was a fake. The coin was sent overnight to ANACS authenticators for an opinion. When it came back as a counterfeit I was hired by NGC and left PCI and TN for NJ. I owe my NGC trial period to Michael Fey and my job to those authenticators at ANACS! Thanks guys.
Comments
Is there an age cut off?
Looking auction lots in darkened room under 100 watt bulbs makes my eyes fall out. It's not the way I learned to grade. I'd last an hour or so.
From what I understand, most of these sizable salaries we are reading about are a relic of a bygone area. I’ve heard that the corporate business model went a different direction in recent years… but I can’t speak with any certainty on the subject.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Not that I’m aware of.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There's probably an age at which somebody doesn't want to start at an entry level job... But the TPGs putting an age guideline on the job is in violation of all sorts of fair employment laws.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
J.P Martin posted his resume above. He said forty years. The people who started PCGS and their graders were successful coin dealers. The guys at the new CACG might be the highest paid. Look at their qualifications. It is my personal opinion that anyone starting from scratch today who is not activly being trained to grade and authenticate coins by one of the top professional numismatists or dealers would NEVERbe ready to step into that position even with twenty years of intense personal study. They would not be able to examine enough coins.
Nevertheless, where there is a will there is a way. I don't know your age but you must start working at a coin shop - even for free. You must start taking lessons from the ANA. Summer Seminar is the best but take the Correspondence Courses FIRST. I attended a few summers. Find mentors in coin clubs, read, and join all the coin chat rooms. This one is very advanced. I studied and learned a lot after being burned at the start of my forty plus years of collecting; but when I joind here as a "lurker" I realized that I din't have the "gravitas" to post for a long time. When I did start posting my opinions, one long-time professional grader and his friends made fun of me. LOL, now I really enjoy being being "blasted" by the experts and told what I cannot post. Good luck.
PS Unless you have the "cred" of a successful, famous, expert in a particular field, I find it very hard to believe that any top three TPGS would hire any old person after they retire.
@silviosi,
Thanks again. I just figured out how to see all of your old posts! I'm going to read them all. I cannot wait to see all the new discoveries you have made that are not already publicized in books or Variety Vista! I'm going to start focusing on Washington quarters again. There is just too much to know in every series to become an expert Cherrypicker such as yourself with the quarter series. I have found a few transitional Rosevelt dimes. Then I'm going to start reading all the old posts from my favorite 5 star posters such as Mark Feld.
PS The thing is, if no one really knows about these rare coins(like your 25c) they are relatively worthless except to the true numismatists. For example, in my younger days, before they became sought after, I had to beg a knowledgeable dealer who sold varieties to buy two 1916/16 Buffalo nickels (a good and a VG) from me because they were "worthless" at the time.
MarK Feld is correct,
There are many excellent graders in the field, most of their resumes are not great focus on the Benjamins. Their skills benefit their cohort, company, and grading services.
Many specialists have skills equal or greater than the most seasoned grading service experts. That is why they all use consultants.
Once you start adding up the different skill levels and experiences you begin to see how small a field of world class really is.
Let's say there are 50,000 investors and collectors that can accurately grade in their chosen area of expertise. Now say 5000 people who are very good at their trade and may make a comfortable living in the coin trade in this country. Brick and mortar, ebay. vest pockets
weekend warriors, wholesalers, auctions, etc. Now lets start whittling it down.
50,000 Collectors/ investors good graders in specific areas
5000 - Very good graders - professionals
3000 - Can attribute most coins- no reference material
2000 -That have above average TGS returns
1000 - Graders that share their knowledge
500 Full time loners - vest-pocket
300 GUYS ON COIN BOARDS
100 Wholesalers that commonly make rips off dealers
75 People that wish they had chosen a different career path
50 People that are pretty sharp but have better job non coins
25 Graders that I'd buy a beer for
5 Graders that have a firm grasp of authentication
5 Graders that have personally Certified 5 million coins
2 Graders proficient in US., foreign, ancients
0 Graders that can do it all
0 Graders that have personally certified 10 million coins
1 Graders that claim to have personally certified 10 million coins
WHERE DO YOU FIT IN?
What a curious question.
@homerunhall just launched a new sticker service!
As far as graders with 40 years certification experience:
Anacs 2
NGC 1
PCGS 0
CAC 0
ICG 1
UPDATE; Almost forgot Skip Fazzari, one of the earliest graders
The sticker game is such a curious phenomena. As originally conceived, A way to extract
extra money for those coins that are premium for the grade. What a golden goose! Talk about a low cost, high reward. An opinion backed by nothing! The authentication, Grading, Attribution is already guaranteed. The cost of it is a sticker!
The origin of the whole "plus" system are questionable as well. The rumor is that large numismatic promoter was sued for selling coins at, let's say a premium that could not be defended in court and lost.
The grading services were then approached and were told if you give me a reason to legally charge a premium, we will submit x number of coins, The
'"plus" service was born.
When they decided to compete as a full service the gloves came off.
And I trained one of the 2 guys at ANACS, who probably trained you, and I also trained the guy at NGC. I must have done something right!
You have done well master Yoda!
As to the age question, I am unaware of any grader in their 70's but I do know of teenagers.
UPDATE; I am informed that two ICG graders, Skip and Randy are in their mid to late 70's
Does anyone know who the top play callers are in grading are at PCGS now?
TPG grader job is akin to air traffic controller job where mandatory retirement age is 56. Life and death decisions are made daily by the professional grader just like air traffic controllers do, so the 56 age might be good number for a grader to be shown the door by the TPG powers that be.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The average age in the ANACS grading is in the 60's, so I am glad I am not in the airline
Industry. But I am sure we older guys would blow their doors off!
True. My whole family was lost when an overgraded Trade Dollar crashed into a 747 at SFO...I was the only survivor...
There is some serious misinformation in this thread posted by people who should know better.
I'm going to give them some time to correct the record.
It probably would not be wise for the "new" me
to comment further in this thread at this time. Wait for it.
Steady as she goes Captain. Don't sink the ship too soon.
TRUE DAT! I need to wait a few more days before correcting the record. Propagandists know that if you tell a lie for a long time, eventually folks believe it. I remember it took us almost two decades to get "America's first TPGS" corrected to "America's OLDEST TPGS" yet many don't understand why the change.
ANACS and ICG are the only TPGS's that have two graders with over 40,000 hours of hands-on experience. AT least one of them has a minimum of 20,000 hours studying the surfaces of coins using a microscope. I think 10,000 hours is considered enough to have a good grasp of any vocation.
Coin authenticators in this country came from two roots that I will write about one day.
Nevertheless, by the mid-1980s group #2 was on par with group #1 but Hoskins and I didn't know it. IMO, dissolving that "brain trust" (various reasons) at ANACS which included Fahey, Montgomery, Martin and several others was a huge mistake. I reached this conclusion when I traveled to CO and took their Authentication Test. At the time, because of their past performance, I had little respect for the ANACS Authenticators. When I took the test they had a Bay State C/F, a damaged gold pattern, lots of what I considered to be deceptive fakes to most professional coin dealers. Thus, I answered the questions as I thought inexperienced authenticators would; figuring after I was hired I could teach the guys something. LOL. How is that for dumb arrogance? Well, Mary and Brian took me to lunch and I asked them to see the test so I could show them the correct answers. No dice. Anyway, I learned later that I flunked the test. To peers like Bonser, and Randy I was a dunce! Looking back, I'm glad I was not hired because ANACS was sold. I'm unhappy that I soiled my reputation by being so ignorant and smug. The joke to this story comes around to its beginning. While being on a one week trial for a position at NGC, they were unsure about a 1796 half dollar that I knew immediately was a fake. The coin was sent overnight to ANACS authenticators for an opinion. When it came back as a counterfeit I was hired by NGC and left PCI and TN for NJ. I owe my NGC trial period to Michael Fey and my job to those authenticators at ANACS! Thanks guys.