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MS65 St Gaudens or 1995 W Silver Eagle Proof

VetterVetter Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭✭

If you had the money which would you buy considering you had neither of both? I’m trying to decide.

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  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭

    Except the 1924 or 1927 I will go with St-Gauldens. Personal oppinion

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1995 W Silver Eagle Proof.
    If it is close to immaculate, spot free (and Mitch (wondercoin) views the coin and gives his nod of approval, I'd go with it.

    peacockcoins

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is there a reason you limited yourself to these two?

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m generally not one to focus on dates (unless the date itself is cool, like a 179X versus 180X) and prefer the type. This scenario pits a very valuable date over a fabulous design. I could get the Saint and then separately any other date proof silver eagle for relatively nothing, but I couldn’t get the 1995 along with a Saint in any condition. Unless I’m getting the 1995 as an investment (and I don’t know enough about either option to know which is likely a better investment) I’m taking the Saint.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS 65 Saint

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • HillbillyCollectorHillbillyCollector Posts: 484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Saint, everyday of the week and twice on Sunday!!😉

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2024 6:48PM

    How much is each coin going to cost you ? What Saint and what condition for the 1995-W ASE are we comparing ?

    The 1995-W ASE has a monstrous numismatic premium. Select trophy coins were bid up in a bubble...as their price fell, they depressed the entire mintage. I haven't checked prices lately for all the specialized variations on the label, but at one time some of the premium 1995-W's were down 75% in price. I suspect by now the incoming certification supply has abated.

    I am biased to Saints like many here and my flagship is an MS-66 1923-D. There are other fine coins like some of the 1908 NM CACs that look pretty nice with great luster.

    Unless the 1995-W costs much less than I suspect, I thought the Saint you'd be looking at is a scarcity condition Saint or a more rare type. Since the amount you have to spend is the same for each coin, knowing what that amount is would be key to the choice, IMO.

  • jkrkjkrk Posts: 948 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Saint. I have a bias. I'm attracted to gold... less to coins.

    I assume we are talking generic 65? The Saint (in any condition) will always be worth the gold price minus a few %. I like to have an idea where my floor is. The rarer the coin, the less interest I have (bigger premium).

    WTS, A 65 should be worth some relatively small premium.

  • SurfinxHISurfinxHI Posts: 2,323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    JT nails it.

    Dead people tell interesting tales.
  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Make sure you find a true gem for that $20.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    Saint melts at $1950 ASE melts at $23. Think downside.

    The PCGS PF 70 DCAM's sell for just under $20,000. You save a ton of $$$ by going for 69's or 68's, with or without DCAM.

    The population increased from 8 in 2013 when the record of $87,000 was set....23 in 2014.....381 in 2018.....424 in 2021. I don't know how many of the 30,000 or so would qualify for a PF 70 DCAM designation, technology wasn't as good then as it is today. But it's possible a few more hundred can come out over the next decade as 10-20 have been certified each year on average since 2017.

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭

    The ASE in 69 DCAM last year has a trend around 3000$. Except 24,27 and 28 which has same price around 3000$. Saints in 65 was trade far more then the ASE and with the perspective to rise another 1000$ this year when the gold is presumed to rich 3000$/oz.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,310 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Saint any day (no Brainer here)

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 6:03AM

    Seems like a "no brainer" to me.

    Common is common but at least the Saint is what I would call a "real" coin. It's also got about $2K in metal value.

    Conversely, I consider the 95-W in the top 5 most overrated and overpriced coins on the planet based upon its actual collectible attributes. The only two that I know which are more overrated is the 2008 South Africa Mandela 90th BD 5R (which has crashed and burned financially but still an overpriced piece of pocket change) and the 2019 ERP ASE.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:
    The 1995-W ASE has a monstrous numismatic premium. Select trophy coins were bid up in a bubble...as their price fell, they depressed the entire mintage.

    95-W in below 70 hasn't crashed in price but it isn't even close to what I would call an actual "trophy" coin either, except by the very low standards of distinction US collectors may use.

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Saint

  • erscoloerscolo Posts: 421 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Go for the gold. It is beautiful, a magnificent piece of art and it circulated (though not this specimen). I do not collect gold coins and do collect non-bullion silver eagles, yet I very much admire the Twenty Dollar gold piece as a pinnacle of American coinage.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 7:37AM

    @WCC said:
    95-W in below 70 hasn't crashed in price but it isn't even close to what I would call an actual "trophy" coin either, except by the very low standards of distinction US collectors may use.

    True, the real "crash" was in the PCGS PR 70 DCAM 1st Strike designation or something like that. It was auctioned at GC in 2013 when the pop of such coins (ex-1st Strike) was still single digits.

    For some reason, I can't find previous ASE PR 70 DCAM sales at GC or HA, but I will assume that while the labelized premium coins went down by 75% that the drop was closer to 50% for straight PF 70 DCAMs. For 69's or 68's, I am sure the drop was less as they didn't go up as much, either.

    The thing is that there is still supply hitting the market and the pop numbers keep going up. Even the 69's and 68's in DCAM or not could see declining prices.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 7:56AM

    @WCC said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:
    The 1995-W ASE has a monstrous numismatic premium. Select trophy coins were bid up in a bubble...as their price fell, they depressed the entire mintage.

    95-W in below 70 hasn't crashed in price but it isn't even close to what I would call an actual "trophy" coin either, except by the very low standards of distinction US collectors may use.

    That’s a bit cynical. There are more ASE collectors out there than just about any classic series and many of them combined. While I agree they aren’t the most intellectually stimulating series one must remember this is a hobby that appeals to the range of collector experience levels and financial resources. The ASE program scratches an itch for many coin fans that like being able to buy large intrinsically significant coins directly from the mint who haven’t yet or may never branch out into classics. Most of us dump on mint sets but that represents the foundation of the hobby that breeds the next generation of collectors and is a necessary part of the ecosystem. ASE are a step up from those.

    The 95w is absolutely a trophy coin to someone who took amassing to the next Evolution into completion and wants to finish their set. I bought the 95w for my father in-law as a birthday gift after he had wanted one for years and I had run out of holes in his set to backfill. It is his fav coin.

    Just because you feel above them for what ever reason doesn’t mean it isn’t a trophy. My heart no longer races for a G4 SVDB and I know how many are really out there. But I know that coin has the potential to be the most expensive coin a true collector ever buys and the last hole filled in their folder so I respect it as such. It is more of a trophy than many much more expensive coins will ever be.

  • JJMJJM Posts: 7,961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Gold

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  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:

    That’s a bit cynical.

    It's an unpopular opinion, as I suspect your sentiments are shared by many.

    I don't have a negative opinion of the coin as a collectible, only the price. I'm aware most collectors have to buy common coins and my estimate is that somewhere in the vicinity of 80% of US collectors don't buy coins above $300.

    I'm also aware of the reason. No coin with this supply and a noticeably lower preference will ever sell for its price.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    The thing is that there is still supply hitting the market and the pop numbers keep going up. Even the 69's and 68's in DCAM or not could see declining prices.

    The current supply must be in the vicinity of 100% of the initial mintage of roughly 30,000.

    My inference is that this coin is bought in noticeable proportion at least partly for financial reasons, not just by ASE (set) collectors.

    It's unlikely the price will decline substantially absent involuntary selling which I don't think will happen without noticeably less favorable economic conditions.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 10:08AM

    @WCC said:

    @Crypto said:

    That’s a bit cynical.

    It's an unpopular opinion, as I suspect your sentiments are shared by many.

    I don't have a negative opinion of the coin as a collectible, only the price. I'm aware most collectors have to buy common coins and my estimate is that somewhere in the vicinity of 80% of US collectors don't buy coins above $300.

    I'm also aware of the reason. No coin with this supply and a noticeably lower preference will ever sell for its price.

    I get your math and your point but there a host of CC Morgan’s and other classics that are inflated simply because people will pay which causes dealers to chase and stock them which in turn cause people to hold them thus requiring money to pry them out. And so on with that cycle. My point is there are different level trophy coins and I have seen people more proud of their SVDB than whales were of their 1838o halves.

    And to your math that there simply isn’t 30k collectors for the 30k coins. You’re not wrong but if we condensed the market to absolute supply correlated to end user collectors, I suspect the entire hobby would collapse hitting the “classics” way harder than ASEs. Speculation, marketing and upward demand pressure is not exclusive to widgets

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    1995 W Silver Eagle Proof.
    If it is close to immaculate, spot free (and Mitch (wondercoin) views the coin and gives his nod of approval, I'd go with it.

    If it hasn't spotted by now it probably never will.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 12:24PM

    Given that gold bullion is probably not going to drop that much, I'd go with the $20 gold.

    The 1995-W ASE has been dropping in price over the years. It would not surprise me if it continued to do that. With a mintage 30,125 and a near 100% survival rate, there is nothing rare about that coin. Yea, there are a lot of Silver Eagle collectors, but most of them are out at the very high prices that coin has brought.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭✭

    The current supply must be in the vicinity of 100% of the initial mintage of roughly 30,000.
    It's unlikely the price will decline substantially absent involuntary selling which I don't think will happen without >noticeably less favorable economic conditions.

    But isn't the population census for the 1995-W's in various grades and conditions (label additions) INCREASING even if at a slower rate than 2013-2018 ?

    I gave the numbers above, we know that 30,000 were minted and while the technology that provides PF 70's and maybe 69's wasn't as good as the technlogoy today (or even in 2009 when the UHR Saint was recreated).....if only 3-4% are PF 70's that's over 1,000 coins and we're still below 500.

    You guys who are the experts.....what percentage of 1990's stuff from the mint would get a 70 or 69 (compared to today, which maybe it's easier to calculate) ?

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:

    I get your math and your point but there a host of CC Morgan’s and other classics that are inflated simply because people will pay which causes dealers to chase and stock them which in turn cause people to hold them thus requiring money to pry them out. And so on with that cycle.

    I agree with you. I apply the same concept to the most widely collected 20th century US classics too. The buyer expects to get most, all, or more of their money back or far fewer of them would pay the going market price.

    @Crypto said:

    And to your math that there simply isn’t 30k collectors for the 30k coins. You’re not wrong but if we condensed the market to absolute supply correlated to end user collectors, I suspect the entire hobby would collapse hitting the “classics” way harder than ASEs. Speculation, marketing and upward demand pressure is not exclusive to widgets

    True, which is why I view this coin as having noticeable financially motivated buying, even if not specifically to make a profit, certainly to avoid losing a noticeable proportion of their cost.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 12:22PM

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    But isn't the population census for the 1995-W's in various grades and conditions (label additions) INCREASING even if at a slower rate than 2013-2018 ?

    I gave the numbers above, we know that 30,000 were minted and while the technology that provides PF 70's and maybe 69's wasn't as good as the technlogoy today (or even in 2009 when the UHR Saint was recreated).....if only 3-4% are PF 70's that's over 1,000 coins and we're still below 500.

    You guys who are the experts.....what percentage of 1990's stuff from the mint would get a 70 or 69 (compared to today, which maybe it's easier to calculate) ?

    Only a low proportion are ever going to buy this coin as a "70". I don't see it as particularly meaningful to discussion. It's not like the other dates in the series due to the cost.

    I see the $3K (roughly) it takes to buy the "68" or "69" as an entirely different thing. If you're a typical ASE collector, the basic ASE proof set costs under $10K below a "70" with the 95-W around one-third or slightly more? I haven't added it up.

    This is what I interpret @Crypto to be getting at and in this context, the 95-W is what I would describe as an aspirational coin which the majority of ASE collectors can probably realistically afford at some point.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭✭

    NGC has certified over 800 as PF 70 UCAM, if you add that to the PCGS total, there's your 1,000 (actually 1,200) coins that have the 70 and the cameo rating.

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 3:43PM

    Very interesting topic this one. I find very interesting also how collectors mixt different side of collecting.

    Compare coins collecting with bullions or maybe why not sport cards??? I do not think could be put on same taller of balances. Let go to basic:

    Collecting it is an hobby, an attachement to something and also an investment.

    Now because we come to investment: what represent each, (put aside the collecting factor), current and in the future:

    Bullion: FV= 0 + value=metal + historical,numismatic value=NO TOTAL= metal
    Coins: **FV=YES, value=metal, historical,numismatic value=YES **TOTAL= metal + FV + historical

    Very interesting for me this visions of bullions collector to assimilate theirs collections as the numismatic coins. Someone compare the ASE with Morgans. I preffere my few hundreds of Morgans who are all over my office then my rare bullions in different forms as different lingots many from special events or the rounds with different designs (inclusive the ASE)

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,957 ✭✭✭

    I've had so many milking issues over the years (hit or miss) where coins turn in the holder years later. Just because of this I stay away from high value ASEs. But I guess if like others mentioned there are zero spots and it has been in the holder this long without turning and you are prepared to keep it in a dry well maintained storage area.......and you like the design and collect ASE's.....I could see going that route.

    I'm assuming you asked this question because you are working on an ASE set registry and need the 1995 proof?

    Otherwise.....me personally I'd go for the Gold.

  • goldengolden Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Go with the gold all day.

  • Farmer1961Farmer1961 Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    Let's compare the 1995-W silver eagle to the mintages of proof platinum eagles. You could combine the mintage of several proof platinum eagles to equal the 1995-W proof silver eagle. Off the top of my head I'm not sure but I would guess that it would take at least 6-7 to equal the 95w probably more and platinum is well over $900 an oz

  • Farmer1961Farmer1961 Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    Just did a quick check and it looks like the 6 lowest mintage different date platinum proof eagles is close to the mintage of the 95w proof silver eagle. Each of these dates is cheaper to purchase than the 95w individually.

  • Farmer1961Farmer1961 Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    Combined mintage of the 6 lowest platinum eagles equals 95w. Should have clarified that

  • Farmer1961Farmer1961 Posts: 160 ✭✭✭

    To further add the 2015w proof platinum eagle 1 oz. Coin has a mintage of 3,886 and I saw one for sale on e bay as low as $2,399 on an NGC proof 69 holder. This is the lowest mintage proof in the platinum series.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $1900 worth of classic gold or $22 worth of modern gutter metal? I'd have to stick with the Au Bob. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

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