I'm 100% totally fine having coins in my collection that are not stickered and even several that are not straight-graded. The trick is to acquire them at a price point that is commensurate with their quality.
I completely agree that the grading skills of slab and sticker people vastly exceed my own. Their opinions are, therefore, useful. The marketplace recognizes the value too. However, it is incredibly important to remember that even the opinions of experts can be diametrically opposed, inconsistent, and ultimately, subjective. Eventually you reach a point of diminishing returns.
When talking to surgeons, a 2nd opinion is often informative and occasionally you might learn something new from a 3rd opinion. Eventually, you'll recognize that there are almost as many opinions as there are surgeons and you'll eventually just have to make a decision. A rough consensus is about all you can realistically hope for.
When it comes to coins, this point is utterly lost on some. They view grades as intrinsic properties of the coin that need to be precisely divined by gurus on mountaintops. It just doesn't work like that.
If a person was consigning coins to a Stacks auction, it's so easy to just "check a box" and have them bring the coin down the "Hall" to get the CMQ. NO extra postage, NO extra risk of shipping losses, NO time wasted in shipping. So this consignor could be one of the many who are not fans of stickering, and had not sent it to CAC, but since this process is so easy with CMQ, they decided to just check the box.
About a week ago I posted a CAC Poll and what I found interesting was that 51 out of 113 respondents said they either don't plan to or never will submit their coins to CAC. Would that resistance to CAC carry over to the time when they or their heirs decide to sell, we don't know.
As a disclaimer, this post is not intended to promote my item. I will create a new post in the BST forum for that purpose but to respond to @Walkerlover request, I have listed the Texas commem on eBay:
As a disclaimer, this post is not intended to promote my item. I will create a new post in the BST forum for that purpose but to respond to @Walkerlover request, I have listed the Texas commem on eBay:
As I said in my response (which you did not copy), there was a specific request in this thread to post the listing if I decided to sell it. For the record, I don't expect the buyer will be a forum member.
@BryceM said:
All of these grading results are just opinions guys. Informed opinions, for sure, but just opinions. The coins are what they are. Reaching a consensus on grading is never going to happen. As for the market, it will eventually decide, as it always does.
The value of a gold CAC sticker is very difficult to predict. The value of a CMQ+ sticker is impossible to predict at this stage of their existence in the marketplace. The best comp I can find (old holder, MS65, gold CAC) is the Heritage listing from last summer. It will be interesting to see where the NGC gold CAC/CMQ+ auction lands:
@BryceM said:
All of these grading results are just opinions guys. Informed opinions, for sure, but just opinions. The coins are what they are. Reaching a consensus on grading is never going to happen. As for the market, it will eventually decide, as it always does.
The value of a gold CAC sticker is very difficult to predict. The value of a CMQ+ sticker is impossible to predict at this stage of their existence in the marketplace. The best comp I can find (old holder, MS65, gold CAC) is the Heritage listing from last summer. It will be interesting to see where the NGC gold CAC/CMQ+ auction lands:
Tim what price result for your coin do you think would indicate the CMQ Gold Sticker had a substantial effect in being a successful experiment. I think your coin has more eye appeal than the Heritage coin from the photos
@BryceM said:
All of these grading results are just opinions guys. Informed opinions, for sure, but just opinions. The coins are what they are. Reaching a consensus on grading is never going to happen. As for the market, it will eventually decide, as it always does.
The value of a gold CAC sticker is very difficult to predict. The value of a CMQ+ sticker is impossible to predict at this stage of their existence in the marketplace. The best comp I can find (old holder, MS65, gold CAC) is the Heritage listing from last summer. It will be interesting to see where the NGC gold CAC/CMQ+ auction lands:
t)
A CMQ+ sticker can probably be equated to a PCGS + or an NGC star. It does not necessarily indicate a coin is under graded, although it could be. The Gold CAC of course means it is definitely under graded.
Tim what price result for your coin do you think would indicate the CMQ Gold Sticker had a substantial effect in being a successful experiment. I think your coin has more eye appeal than the Heritage coin from the photos
Good question and thanks for the eye appeal comment. I agree completely and since I bought this coin at a local coin show, I did have a good opportunity to inspect it in hand before tendering an offer.
When the auction concludes, I will share more details of what I (over)paid for the coin and CMQ stickering (~$30). Based on the my current investment and eBay fees, I will need something north of the Heritage results. But again, this purchase was less about profiteering and more about market research.
Following a handful of sales gives you nothing but random noise, statically speaking. To learn anything meaningful, you’ll need a very large sample set. Realistically, this is something beyond the capabilities of most collectors & most dealers.
@BryceM said:
Following a handful of sales gives you nothing but random noise, statically speaking. To learn anything meaningful, you’ll need a very large sample set. Realistically, this is something beyond the capabilities of most collectors & most dealers.
While absolutely correct, not every scenario has a large data set available. We are dealing in a very niche market and with a new player in the arena. I hope this process shares a little more light on these market forces, knowing it’s a very shallow pool.
@BryceM said:
I'm 100% totally fine having coins in my collection that are not stickered and even several that are not straight-graded. The trick is to acquire them at a price point that is commensurate with their quality.
I completely agree that the grading skills of slab and sticker people vastly exceed my own. Their opinions are, therefore, useful. The marketplace recognizes the value too. However, it is incredibly important to remember that even the opinions of experts can be diametrically opposed, inconsistent, and ultimately, subjective. Eventually you reach a point of diminishing returns.
When talking to surgeons, a 2nd opinion is often informative and occasionally you might learn something new from a 3rd opinion. Eventually, you'll recognize that there are almost as many opinions as there are surgeons and you'll eventually just have to make a decision. A rough consensus is about all you can realistically hope for.
When it comes to coins, this point is utterly lost on some. They view grades as intrinsic properties of the coin that need to be precisely divined by gurus on mountaintops. It just doesn't work like that.
While I agree with the first part of your comments, once again you end up poo-pooing the current recognized (by many) value of CAC opinions. You talk about the theory that opinions are being diametrically opposed, inconsistent, and ultimately subjective, reaching a point of diminishing returns. While in theory you are absolutely correct about many types of opinions in general, and I agree that CAC opinions are indeed “subjective”, they are more consistent than your implication. Despite your early comment, by your followup words, your points insinuate that CAC’s decisions should clearly be valued less by collectors than they currently are. Reaching a point of diminishing returns? The reality is that the acceptance of the value of CAC opinions has been growing significantly over the past decade by dealers and collectors, hence the growing price differentials between coins that merit CAC stickers versus those that don’t have stickers, particularly for coins valued in the high three figures and up. Yes, there are always exceptions.
Although you start out your next example saying that medical opinions can be useful and one can learn something, you continue making your point about the low value of those opinions by saying there are almost as many medical opinions as there are surgeons, so what the heck, just decide, since a rough consensus is the best you can hope for. Tying that to CAC’s opinions that are accepted by today’s growing collectors in that camp is incorrect.
Poke fun of CAC’s opinions that are being made by “guru’s on mountaintops”. Apparently, based on market valuations, it DOES work that way!
Separately, I fully agree with you that it’s perfectly fine buying non-stickered coins at prices commensurate with their quality. There’s no problem if one recognizes that there is a REASON that a coin fails to sticker, and accepting that and then making the purchase of that coin for one’s collection is fine! But I believe unfortunately there are collectors that know about CAC that put on blinders and buy relatively high value coins that failed to sticker, and end up thinking that coin is solid for the grade on the label, and has not had a surface treatment that is not acceptable in the opinion of CAC.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Steve, I think you’re taking some liberties with my comments. The point I’m trying to make is that a coin in a PCGS holder with two stickers has been seen by at least 5 expert graders. Will the sixth one change anything? For a few people, I suppose it might, but for the majority of people (and the market) maybe not. Time will tell.
All the grades, stickers, and opinions in the world don’t change what the coin actually is. Grading was simultaneously important, controversial, and essential long before TPGs came into existence. It still is. What we have sure isn’t comparable to the grading of diamonds, for example.
I never said anything that a reasonable person would consider anti-CAC (or anti-any other TPG for that matter)…… or even anti-surgeon. For the record, prior to selling the bulk of my collection, probably 80% of them had CAC stickers. I submitted many of them myself. Their opinion is informative and particularly useful when considering the realities of the market. I happen to believe that majority of collectors would be wise to stick with coins in certain holder/sticker combinations if they want to maximize the potential value of their purchases. This may or may not correlate with maximizing your enjoyment of the hobby, which is an entirely different animal.
Finally, from my experience, while some graders are more consistent than others, none of them are as consistent as you seem to imply. That’s inherit to the nature of a subjective process. Some collectors seem to be fixated on determining which of the graders “got it right.” In reality, none of them did, as grades are not an inherent property of the coin.
Comments
I'm 100% totally fine having coins in my collection that are not stickered and even several that are not straight-graded. The trick is to acquire them at a price point that is commensurate with their quality.
I completely agree that the grading skills of slab and sticker people vastly exceed my own. Their opinions are, therefore, useful. The marketplace recognizes the value too. However, it is incredibly important to remember that even the opinions of experts can be diametrically opposed, inconsistent, and ultimately, subjective. Eventually you reach a point of diminishing returns.
When talking to surgeons, a 2nd opinion is often informative and occasionally you might learn something new from a 3rd opinion. Eventually, you'll recognize that there are almost as many opinions as there are surgeons and you'll eventually just have to make a decision. A rough consensus is about all you can realistically hope for.
When it comes to coins, this point is utterly lost on some. They view grades as intrinsic properties of the coin that need to be precisely divined by gurus on mountaintops. It just doesn't work like that.
About a week ago I posted a CAC Poll and what I found interesting was that 51 out of 113 respondents said they either don't plan to or never will submit their coins to CAC. Would that resistance to CAC carry over to the time when they or their heirs decide to sell, we don't know.
As he shamelessly promotes his item!
As I said in my response (which you did not copy), there was a specific request in this thread to post the listing if I decided to sell it. For the record, I don't expect the buyer will be a forum member.
Tim
The value of a gold CAC sticker is very difficult to predict. The value of a CMQ+ sticker is impossible to predict at this stage of their existence in the marketplace. The best comp I can find (old holder, MS65, gold CAC) is the Heritage listing from last summer. It will be interesting to see where the NGC gold CAC/CMQ+ auction lands:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/commemorative-silver/1935-50c-texas-ms65-pcgs-gold-cac-pcgs-population-872-1323-ngc-census-483-973-cdn-200-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-m/a/63228-92279.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
Tim
(edited to add screenshot)
Tim what price result for your coin do you think would indicate the CMQ Gold Sticker had a substantial effect in being a successful experiment. I think your coin has more eye appeal than the Heritage coin from the photos
t)
A CMQ+ sticker can probably be equated to a PCGS + or an NGC star. It does not necessarily indicate a coin is under graded, although it could be. The Gold CAC of course means it is definitely under graded.
Good question and thanks for the eye appeal comment. I agree completely and since I bought this coin at a local coin show, I did have a good opportunity to inspect it in hand before tendering an offer.
When the auction concludes, I will share more details of what I (over)paid for the coin and CMQ stickering (~$30). Based on the my current investment and eBay fees, I will need something north of the Heritage results. But again, this purchase was less about profiteering and more about market research.
Tim
Following a handful of sales gives you nothing but random noise, statically speaking. To learn anything meaningful, you’ll need a very large sample set. Realistically, this is something beyond the capabilities of most collectors & most dealers.
While absolutely correct, not every scenario has a large data set available. We are dealing in a very niche market and with a new player in the arena. I hope this process shares a little more light on these market forces, knowing it’s a very shallow pool.
Tim
While I agree with the first part of your comments, once again you end up poo-pooing the current recognized (by many) value of CAC opinions. You talk about the theory that opinions are being diametrically opposed, inconsistent, and ultimately subjective, reaching a point of diminishing returns. While in theory you are absolutely correct about many types of opinions in general, and I agree that CAC opinions are indeed “subjective”, they are more consistent than your implication. Despite your early comment, by your followup words, your points insinuate that CAC’s decisions should clearly be valued less by collectors than they currently are. Reaching a point of diminishing returns? The reality is that the acceptance of the value of CAC opinions has been growing significantly over the past decade by dealers and collectors, hence the growing price differentials between coins that merit CAC stickers versus those that don’t have stickers, particularly for coins valued in the high three figures and up. Yes, there are always exceptions.
Although you start out your next example saying that medical opinions can be useful and one can learn something, you continue making your point about the low value of those opinions by saying there are almost as many medical opinions as there are surgeons, so what the heck, just decide, since a rough consensus is the best you can hope for. Tying that to CAC’s opinions that are accepted by today’s growing collectors in that camp is incorrect.
Poke fun of CAC’s opinions that are being made by “guru’s on mountaintops”. Apparently, based on market valuations, it DOES work that way!
Separately, I fully agree with you that it’s perfectly fine buying non-stickered coins at prices commensurate with their quality. There’s no problem if one recognizes that there is a REASON that a coin fails to sticker, and accepting that and then making the purchase of that coin for one’s collection is fine! But I believe unfortunately there are collectors that know about CAC that put on blinders and buy relatively high value coins that failed to sticker, and end up thinking that coin is solid for the grade on the label, and has not had a surface treatment that is not acceptable in the opinion of CAC.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
That’s not a fair criticism. IMO, stickers are more about marketing than grading.
Steve, I think you’re taking some liberties with my comments. The point I’m trying to make is that a coin in a PCGS holder with two stickers has been seen by at least 5 expert graders. Will the sixth one change anything? For a few people, I suppose it might, but for the majority of people (and the market) maybe not. Time will tell.
All the grades, stickers, and opinions in the world don’t change what the coin actually is. Grading was simultaneously important, controversial, and essential long before TPGs came into existence. It still is. What we have sure isn’t comparable to the grading of diamonds, for example.
I never said anything that a reasonable person would consider anti-CAC (or anti-any other TPG for that matter)…… or even anti-surgeon.
For the record, prior to selling the bulk of my collection, probably 80% of them had CAC stickers. I submitted many of them myself. Their opinion is informative and particularly useful when considering the realities of the market. I happen to believe that majority of collectors would be wise to stick with coins in certain holder/sticker combinations if they want to maximize the potential value of their purchases. This may or may not correlate with maximizing your enjoyment of the hobby, which is an entirely different animal.
Finally, from my experience, while some graders are more consistent than others, none of them are as consistent as you seem to imply. That’s inherit to the nature of a subjective process. Some collectors seem to be fixated on determining which of the graders “got it right.” In reality, none of them did, as grades are not an inherent property of the coin.
@RYK “That’s not a fair criticism. IMO, stickers are more about marketing than grading.”
I like this point a lot.