Counterfeit certified as genuine.

TwoKopeiki

Hey @ianrussell - not sure how you handle cases like these, but the following 1842 Zacatecas 8R currently up for sale at GC is a contemporary counterfeit erroneously certified as genuine by our hosts. Lots of tells with easiest one being that crude hand engraved eagle.

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1516458/Mexico-1842-Zs-OM-Silver-8-Reales-Die-Style-of-1825-1842-KM-37713-PCGS-VF-35

ELuis

Here two samples:

That eagle does not look et-al to these two above.

PillarDollarCollector

If that is the case they should definitely end the auction and pull it down. Maybe give them a quick call.

TwoKopeiki

@PillarDollarCollector said:
If that is the case they should definitely end the auction and pull it down. Maybe give them a quick call.

Ian is the owner of GC. Looks like the listing was pulled already.

TwoKopeiki

By the way, I think it's also one of the pieces documented in Riddell's Monograph, but don't have my reference to check at the moment. It might actually bring decent bids from CCCF collectors once properly described.

PillarDollarCollector

Good job TwoKopeiki!!

davewesen

How can you tell it is a contemporary counterfeit and not just heavily tooled, putting back in feather distinctions? Are there others that look just like this?

The 2 genuine examples you posted have different eagles as well. Look at the bottom locations of both wings. Were all dies hand engraved in Mexico in 1842?

I am not arguing, just curious as I do not collect these.

TwoKopeiki

Posting the two varieties probably muddied the waters a bit. 1842 was a design change year in Zacatecas. That's why you see "Eagle Type of 1841" or "Eagle Type of 1843" usually noted on the label. The dies were hand-made, however it was done using standardized punches, so you would not expect a lot of variation in the design components.

Compare it to what the 1825-1842 Zacatecas eagle suppose to look like. The difference will become quite clear. Also, look at other design elements, like the cactus pads, etc...

PCGS makes mistakes when it comes to varieties attribution from time to time. Certifying counterfeits even less so, but as you can see it happens.

Their coinfacts page for the 1842 Zacatecas 8 Reales Early Eagle variety seems to be a trifecta - 1 properly attributed coin, 1 mis-attributed later die style, and a contemporary counterfeit.

davewesen

Thanks for the explanation.

I did notice on the fake the die chips in the letters P and A filling up the holes. I was assuming that was because the counterfeiters die was not as hard as the mints, so did not last as long (or even broke out while making die). Just another reminder to not buy things you know nothing about, no matter how good the price seems to be.

coinkat

Just curious... how widely collected are the contemporary counterfeits?

Still has a look about that makes it interesting. I suppose I have to review afew of my non-slabbed 8Rs as I think I have encountered these wings and cactus design on other dates.

TwoKopeiki

By the way, the original reference (Riddell's "Monograph of the Silver Dollar") is free on google books:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=SGMlRSEpv4MC&pg=PA196&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

There's an updated reference called "Unreal Reales" by John Lorenzo and Bob Gurney that can be bough on ebay.

threefifty

Contemporary counterfeit collectors? There are dozens of us!

For Cap and Ray counterfeits specifically - Bob Gurney has discussed a potential book in the past but I don't know the status. The Unreal Reales is outstanding and focuses on portrait 8 reales counterfeits.

ELuis

@threefifty said:

For Cap and Ray counterfeits specifically

Have own at least four 8 Reales in the past, that end up being counterfeits, and ws able to return each for my money back.

Here it is a sample of 1R:


That should be this one:

WorldCoinsDmitry

Nice catch. Also worth pointing out, in case the eagle side is not visible for future occasions, the 2 is the date and in “20 G” are not from the same punch. The second one is like a curvy inverse letter S.

SilverAge3

@TwoKopeiki said:
Posting the two varieties probably muddied the waters a bit. 1842 was a design change year in Zacatecas. That's why you see "Eagle Type of 1841" or "Eagle Type of 1843" usually noted on the label. The dies were hand-made, however it was done using standardized punches, so you would not expect a lot of variation in the design components.

Compare it to what the 1825-1842 Zacatecas eagle suppose to look like. The difference will become quite clear. Also, look at other design elements, like the cactus pads, etc...

PCGS makes mistakes when it comes to varieties attribution from time to time. Certifying counterfeits even less so, but as you can see it happens.

Their coinfacts page for the 1842 Zacatecas 8 Reales Early Eagle variety seems to be a trifecta - 1 properly attributed coin, 1 mis-attributed later die style, and a contemporary counterfeit.

Is the vf35 on coinfacts the fake?

TwoKopeiki

@SilverAge3 said:

Is the vf35 on coinfacts the fake?

Yes

SilverAge3

@TwoKopeiki said:

@SilverAge3 said:

Is the vf35 on coinfacts the fake?

Yes

Good to know. It looks off. I don't know the series, but it still looks off.

Looks like it uses same devices in area below cactus, as that in topic starter. Definitely looks different than the mountain and water, seen in genuine examples.

TwoKopeiki

@SilverAge3 said:

@TwoKopeiki said:

@SilverAge3 said:

Is the vf35 on coinfacts the fake?

Yes

Good to know. It looks off. I don't know the series, but it still looks off.

It's the coin in the original post and the one in the center of the later image to shown differences in the design as compared to 4 genuine examples.