Has anyone done a PCGS guarantee review?
hfjacinto
Posts: 874 ✭✭✭✭✭
If you submitted a coin for the PCGS guarantee review what was your result? Was the case resolved in your favor?
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
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Comments
Indirectly, yes.
I know the coin was removed from the original holder and designated "Altered Surface". I'm not sure how the payout worked for the owner.
Coin Photographer.
Well since I got no response. I sent in the coin, I'll let you know how it went.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Can we see the coin?
The spot around 11PM is green. The person I purchased it from had blurry or touched up pictures, the coin didn't look this bad in the pictures. When I got it I tried to return it but there were no returns. I was going to break it out and put it in acetone, but let’s see what PCGS does. Otherwise I may send it to Anacs to try and conserve.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
The PCGS guarantee unfortunately does not cover that.
In the category of items the guarantee does not cover, the guarantee states:
"Coins exhibiting environmental deterioration. The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion."
Coin Photographer.
I agree but I am buying PCGS graded coins for the worry free that the coin meets the grade, in this case it doesn't, I had the same issue with a coin I got that was NGC graded and NGC took care of the coin, If PCGS doesn't than I have to take that into consideration buying a coin through pictures.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
I'm going through the same issue right now. Have a Mercury dime that was graded by PCGS a couple years ago MS67FB. At that time, there was a very small toning spot right at the bridge of Liberty's nose. Had a look at the dime yesterday & that small toning spot is now a green glob of green PVC. It's going to PCGS today for conservation & regrade. I'm hoping I caught it in time & there is no damage to the surface. Yes, I'm a little worried as it's a high $ dime, but what else to do?
Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
Or buy from dealers who offer return privileges. There are plenty to choose from.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I thought that the reason for 3rd party graders was that we would get the grade we expect? Not a details coin in a straight graded stab.
And isn’t PCGS supposed to be the best of the TPGs?
Are you saying that NGC which honors there guarantee is better than PCGS?
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
If anyone is interested this is my experience with NGC and an Appearance review.
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=394916&SearchTerms=Hfjacinto
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
They were until they stopped giving out free calendars.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You won’t get the coin that you expect (even if it was accurately graded) if it later deteriorates. And that’s not the fault of the grading company. As far as I know, NGC doesn’t have a noticeably different/better guarantee than PCGS does, with respect to coins that suffer environmental deterioration.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As I understand it, NGC's guarantee is much more comprehensive with regards to having a coin with PVC/Environmental Damage remedied.
From the NGC Guarantee (note NGC is "Guarantor"):
"Guarantor may, at its sole reasonable discretion, have a Coin submitted for Appearance Review service professionally conserved by it or an affiliated company if Guarantor believes that doing so can improve its fitness for the grade originally assigned. There will be no charges assessed to Owner for conservation service performed in conjunction with an Appearance Review."
Coin Photographer.
Yes.
I got stuck with a PCGS graded Carson City Mint half eagle which had been treated with iodine to make it look “crusty.” I had to pay some money up front, but after PCGS reviewed it, they gave me two offers. They would remove the iodine, lower the grade by a point and pay me the difference, or they would buy back the coin. I opted to let them buy it back.
I was very satisfied with their service and guarantee.
The key words are "at its sole reasonable discretion...."
Actually you are not correct, read my post in the link.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
NGC honored their guarantee , and I’m actually confident PCGS will also. As of right now the coin has been sent it and was received I’ll wait to comment on the service until I get the coin back.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Right, but PCGS has no such clause and therefore has no such obligation to do what NGC did.
Coin Photographer.
And if PCGS doesn’t which I don’t believe they won’t I can honestly say PCGS straight graded a details coin.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Though they don't like to cover problems of coins that may turn in the holder or have other issues, usually when the coins qualify they'll cover it, but none of the services like to offer free services. I had several of these with PCGS and NGC; a $20 Saint, a better date $20 Lib., a Seated dollar where I even got some nice insights from David Hall on a "presidential review". It can easily take several months.
I think your best bet would be to have PCGS conserve the coin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I am NOT a lawyer. That said, this is not how I interpret this clause.
NGC has an explicit clause that shields them from responsibility for "deterioration", just like PCGS. See section 8a, just below your "conservation" quote. Assuming the issue is PVC, this clause would likely apply. IOW, I do not think that NGC is agreeing to 'conserve/remedy' coins that develop PVC after encapsulation at their expense.
I read section 5, "coin conservation", as a way to mitigate the loss associated with a mistake. Say NGC made a mistake on the original grade (i.e., an actual overgrade, not "deterioration" after encapsulation). Rather than make a (large) payout, they reserve the right to conserve an 'appearance review' coin in an attempt to "improve" it, and try to get it to the originally assigned grade.
Edited for clarity.
To me, it's an issue with the dealer who sold it to you. Can we see the "older pictures" that hide the spots? If he/she misrepresented the coin, I would be placing a call...
Any coin bought sight unseen even with pictures should have a return window assuming the transaction wasn’t dealer to dealer. I am surprised you’re more insistent on PCGS making up for what I would consider a dealer discretion esp if they really used older photos. I have used the guarantee a couple of times over the decades and it isn’t what it once was. The original intent was to make sure there were no bunk coins in PCGS holders and collectors were never left holding the bag, now it isn’t seems to be the bare min corporately to say that there is some sort of guarantee. The will most likely offer to conserve the coin at your cost which will leave you with a nasty coin.
Your two best options are report the dealer with the ANA
Or blow the coin out at auction
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Over the past 30 years of so I've had a couple of coins I sent back to PCGS and NGC for review. The first was an 1803 Large cent I bought from Legend in an NGC MS64BN holder in the late '90's. I showed it to the late Doug Bird (according to Laura, one of the "ultimate copper weenies"). He showed me that the coin had been tooled and I should return it to NGC. With Laura's assistance I sent it to NGC (they were just moving to FL at that time from NJ). NGC returned it to me saying there was nothing wrong with it. I then brought it to the next Long Beach show and Doug walked the coin over to Mark Salzberg who took it back to NGC. A couple of weeks later I got a check for the full purchase price from NGC and they took the coin off the market.
The one or two coins I have submitted to PCGS for guarantee review all came back in the same grade, with helpful comments written by David Hall.
That was my thought about the dealer and what I was getting at in an earlier post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
All of this is conjecture, I’ll wait for response from PCGS.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
I had a similar experience years ago with ANACS. They handled it quickly and professionally. I was happy with the outcome.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
There's usually a review period, frankly I don't know any dealer except for some ebay sellers who say "no return" but ebay forces them to take returns if a buyer is disgruntled and opens a case.
Another possibility is a coin with some surface issue that is more a nuisance especially when you have a coin with strong merits that without the conservable problem could upgrade. No one wants to have to do an acetone dip and pay for another grading fee and wait a long time.
I had an NGC dpl that downgraded to a PL, which they did gratis and only gave me a credit. On a PCGS guarantee submission they offered to send me the coin back in a problem holder with a low wholesale check to make up the difference or send me a check which was well over $1000 less than what I paid. That after actually two guarantee submissions taking around ninety days each time; the first to remove putty on a gold coin the second that cac said had tooling; both for the same coin.
I did for one coin about 5 years ago. The label said it was a 1964-D type C reverse Washington quarter AU details cleaned. I had it for about 5 years before that and cost me near $80. The problem was it was not a type C reverse. I had been using it as an example for searching, and just kept getting well struck type A's. I sent in for guarantee when I got an authentic type C and determined the slab was wrong.
They sent it back as 1964-D AU details cleaned. I had to get ahold of customer service to ask about my guarantee, explaining to them it lost significant value. They checked with someone and gave me credit for 1 express grading. I have never used express before or since except for my 'freebie'.
The coin is now at PCGS and in process. I will keep everyone informed.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Fingers crossed they do the right thing for you.
Just got notification that the coin was graded. Its still the same number, but it says now that its in am NFC slab which it wasn't before, it was in a Gen 6 slab with the code matrix. I'm hoping the PCGS conserved it, but no pictures or other details. I'll wait till I get it back.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
I have sent in 4 coins for PCGS Guarantee Review. The first 2 they cut a check and reholdered the coins at the new grade and returned them to me.
1. Was a Proof quarter that holder said DCAM but came up CAM in registry. When I reported the error they had me return the coins and determined it as CAM and not DCAM.
2. The second was a CAM cent that they determined wasn't CAM.
3. The 3rd is a PR70DCAM cent that is probably PR68 or PR69 that I bought a few years ago but once I really looked at it I noticed it wasn't so flawless. It has a PCGS guide price of $3100 or so. They initially offered about $1100. I provided a receipt for around $2k from ebay auction and they agreed to pay that amount.
4. I sent in the coin from this thread and they are buying it back. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1094773/forum-thoughts-opinions-on-pcgs-restoration-on-steel-cents
Coin is shipped back. Only took a little over 2 weeks, as to what was done, I guess I'll know if a few days.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Probably nothing. If they are going to do anything on a review, they take 3 months or more to do it.
I think the same thing. If nothing was done, I will be more reluctant on getting PCGS graded coins. Especially ones with poor pictures or from BST forums. Should be here in a few days.
In case nothing was done, I already have a back up plan.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Any update on this coin?
Coin Photographer.
Yep, PCGS did nothing with it. I took it to my local dealer that conserved it and now its at NGC getting regraded. This experience really soured me on PCGS, Considering that NGC has a much better guarantee.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
No they don’t, all the TPG have watered their guarantees to mean very little unless there is physical damage to the coin that they missed. Plastic is reassurance not insurance
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Well if the guarantee is no good, then the plastic is meaningless. What good is for a TPG to grade your coin and then have no reason to honor the grade they listed?
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
As I believe I related earlier in this thread, I've had 4 coins bought from me using the PCGS guarantee. The common aspect of them all is that the coin would not grade as labeled on the slab. Their guarantee is not worthless. They cannot guarantee that environmental issues beyond their control happen after they slab a coin. No company can.
Us arguing about what was covered and what was is almost a different conversation.
What happened is the guarantee was originally established to keep bad coins in holders off the market to preserve the brand and protect collectors. Historically collectors got the benefit of the doubt (opposed to dealers) and even things outside of their control were covered. PVC, putty, copper changing color, verdigris or milk spots. There is a famous story of a red penny in ms70 getting a finger print being bought back for high 5 figures.
Since then it has been deemed an acceptable risk to market perception to water down the guarantee from (is the holder still accurate) vs (is it our fault). That is a huge shift and it undercut the “sight unseen” pledge PCGS was established on. We can quibble about PVC and stuff like that which would have been on the coin during grading mind you but, while it isn’t no guarantee, the is it our fault while being the sole determining factor of what at fault isn’t nearly the gold standard of insurance.
As I said earlier holders are now reassurance not insurance which they used to practically be. Again, I’m not naïve to why PCGS changed the standard, i just think it sucks. One of the reasons I would never pay a premium for red copper
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
It’s an opinion not quite a promise. It also doubles in protecting the coin and making them easier to organize.
Note the opinion is based on their standards not the collectors, you get your opportunity to endorse at the point of sale
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Well clearly there are some distinctions that we aren't understanding clearly. As in my other thread, this coin was bought back from me with no quibbling. Now it could be that the coin is actually an MS66 (label said MS67), but my guess is that they bought it because of the spotting.
The coin is now at NGC, let’s see how they grade it. It was conserved and only cost me a box of donuts. I will state that PCGS really disappointed me, but like was stated above it was to be expected.
A few months ago I stopped buying unless I can visually inspect the coin and that has made buying high priced coins a much safer experience and this reinforces that that was a better decision for me.
I’ve become my own CAC.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins