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1921 Peace Dollar w/ Denver mint mark

I have a 1921 Peace Dollar with a D mint mark
I’m confused

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Comments

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,316 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bogus

  • I heard the Denver mint received the 1921 peace dollar dies

  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,157 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jager322 said:
    I heard the Denver mint received the 1921 peace dollar dies

    From????? Uncle's sister's brother's cousin who has a friend?

  • OwnerofawheatiehordeOwnerofawheatiehorde Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jager322 said:
    Who’s to say they didn’t throw in some 1921 peace test coins into 1921 Morgan batch or 1922 peace batch

    What do morgans have anything to do with this? Besides, the coin pictured has the reverse of 1922 and onward.

    Type collector, mainly into Seated. Young Numismatist. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jager322 said:
    Who’s to say they didn’t throw in some 1921 peace test coins into 1921 Morgan batch or 1922 peace batch

    Yours is fake even if there are 100,000 real ones out there.

    Welcome to the forum.

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jager322 said:
    I’m confused

    That is by far the best observation you've made. Whenever a knowledgeable person tries to help you and you feel the urge to contradict them, just remind yourself that you are confused. :)

  • I’m just posting what I know or heard, what a bunch of psychos on here. I got the coin from a friend and I did an hour of research. Thank you for all the comments and feedback. Just wanted to know what I had. Some you guys need to chill out and not to drink and post. Acting like coin crackheads

  • privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,140 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jager322 said:
    I’m just posting what I know or heard, what a bunch of psychos on here. I got the coin from a friend and I did an hour of research. Thank you for all the comments and feedback. Just wanted to know what I had. Some you guys need to chill out and not to drink and post. Acting like coin crackheads

    I think I'll have a drink.....

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

  • Jager322Jager322 Posts: 6
    edited January 7, 2024 1:10PM

    @CaptHenway said:
    Fake> @Jager322 said:

    I heard the Denver mint received the 1921 peace dollar dies

    No. In my research into the 1922-D cent coinage I have the correspondence from the Philadelphia Mint regarding the first Peace Dollar dies sent to Denver and they were not shipped until January 6, 1922.
    The Denver Mint continued striking 1921-D Morgan dollars through December 31, 1921.

    thanks brother. How you think they faked this coin I got? Chinese or it’s a different peace coin that got altered?

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jager322 said:
    I’m just posting what I know or heard, what a bunch of psychos on here. I got the coin from a friend and I did an hour of research. Thank you for all the comments and feedback. Just wanted to know what I had. Some you guys need to chill out and not to drink and post. Acting like coin crackheads

    CaptHenway, above, has done YEARS of research. If he said Denver never had the dies to coin that dollar, then believe him.

    bob :)
    vegas, baby!

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AUandAG said:

    @Jager322 said:
    I’m just posting what I know or heard, what a bunch of psychos on here. I got the coin from a friend and I did an hour of research. Thank you for all the comments and feedback. Just wanted to know what I had. Some you guys need to chill out and not to drink and post. Acting like coin crackheads

    CaptHenway, above, has done YEARS of research. If he said Denver never had the dies to coin that dollar, then believe him.

    bob :)
    vegas, baby!

    Additionally, in answer to the question “Chinese or it’s a different peace coin that got altered?”, the coin wasn’t altered - it’s a counterfeit.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2024 2:01PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2024 2:23PM

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

  • hfjacintohfjacinto Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jager322

    If you don’t want to listen to the negative nanny’s on here you should get it graded and show everyone the result! I think you’ll be shocked at what you get!

    Good luck! I recommend sending it in overnight service!

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    Other than the OP. 🤣

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2024 2:42PM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    This ^^^^. It's actually very simple, and has nothing to do with the fact that someone like Dan is very well respected while a Chinese hack is not.

    No one with an intent to deceive is going to take the time to produce something that never existed, and then try to pass it off as genuine. Hence, those are fantasy pieces, no matter who is producing them, how good (or bad) a particular example happens to be, or whether or not it is overstruck on a genuine coin.

    A counterfeit is an altered or fake version of an actual Mint release. By definition, with an intent to deceive if it is not marked as a copy.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    These aren't questions for me to answer, or for this thread, for that matter. The issue has been debated endlessly, but if you want to have another go at it, feel free to start a new thread. It would not be appropriate to hijack this thread with it.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NJCoin said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    This ^^^^. It's actually very simple, and has nothing to do with the fact that someone like Dan is very well respected.

    No one with an intent to deceive is going to take the time to produce something that never existed, and then try to pass it off as genuine. Hence, those are fantasy pieces, no matter who is producing them, or how good (or bad) a particular example happens to be.

    A counterfeit is an altered or fake version of an actual Mint release. By definition, with an intent to deceive if it is not marked as a copy.

    I think it’s inaccurate to label a genuine, but altered coin as a counterfeit. For example, if you have a 1914 cent with an added D mintmark, it’s referred to as added mintmark, not counterfeit. Another example would be a Seated Liberty (with arrows) coin with the arrows removed. It would be labeled as tooled, altered or something else other than counterfeit.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @NJCoin said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    This ^^^^. It's actually very simple, and has nothing to do with the fact that someone like Dan is very well respected.

    No one with an intent to deceive is going to take the time to produce something that never existed, and then try to pass it off as genuine. Hence, those are fantasy pieces, no matter who is producing them, or how good (or bad) a particular example happens to be.

    A counterfeit is an altered or fake version of an actual Mint release. By definition, with an intent to deceive if it is not marked as a copy.

    I think it’s inaccurate to label a genuine, but altered coin as a counterfeit. For example, if you have a 1914 cent with an added D mintmark, it’s referred to as added mintmark, not counterfeit. Another example would be a Seated Liberty (with arrows) coin with the arrows removed. It would be labeled as tooled, altered or something else other than counterfeit.

    Fair enough, and I'll defer to you as being far more knowledgeable than me in general. To me, it's all the same if it's not genuine and it's not a clear fantasy piece, since the intent is to commit fraud.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    I'm not the one you have to convince.

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 3,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @privatecoin said:

    @Jager322 said:
    I’m just posting what I know or heard, what a bunch of psychos on here. I got the coin from a friend and I did an hour of research. Thank you for all the comments and feedback. Just wanted to know what I had. Some you guys need to chill out and not to drink and post. Acting like coin crackheads

    I think I'll have a drink.....

    I plan to smoke some crack later.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NJCoin said:

    @MFeld said:

    @NJCoin said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    This ^^^^. It's actually very simple, and has nothing to do with the fact that someone like Dan is very well respected.

    No one with an intent to deceive is going to take the time to produce something that never existed, and then try to pass it off as genuine. Hence, those are fantasy pieces, no matter who is producing them, or how good (or bad) a particular example happens to be.

    A counterfeit is an altered or fake version of an actual Mint release. By definition, with an intent to deceive if it is not marked as a copy.

    I think it’s inaccurate to label a genuine, but altered coin as a counterfeit. For example, if you have a 1914 cent with an added D mintmark, it’s referred to as added mintmark, not counterfeit. Another example would be a Seated Liberty (with arrows) coin with the arrows removed. It would be labeled as tooled, altered or something else other than counterfeit.

    Fair enough, and I'll defer to you as being far more knowledgeable than me in general. To me, it's all the same if it's not genuine and it's not a clear fantasy piece, since the intent is to commit fraud.

    I agree with your sentiments. My comments pertained to the classification of coins, as opposed to the bottom line reality that you pointed out.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @NJCoin said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    This ^^^^. It's actually very simple, and has nothing to do with the fact that someone like Dan is very well respected while a Chinese hack is not.

    No one with an intent to deceive is going to take the time to produce something that never existed, and then try to pass it off as genuine. Hence, those are fantasy pieces, no matter who is producing them, how good (or bad) a particular example happens to be, or whether or not it is overstruck on a genuine coin.

    A counterfeit is an altered or fake version of an actual Mint release. By definition, with an intent to deceive if it is not marked as a copy.

    I offer you the OP. Just because Dan Carr himself doesn't intend to deceive doesn't mean his creations could not be used to deceive. How hard would it be to convince a newbie that your Dan Carr piece is actually a U.S. Mint pattern.

    By your definition, the coin on this thread is not a counterfeit. It's a collectible fantasy.

    Would it be legal to take a genuine 1921 and overstrike it with a fantasy D Reverse?

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,436 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    The fact that he overstrikes his stuff on genuine coins is the technicality that makes most of his legal tender coin design pieces legal, that plus the fact that most of his legal tender coin design pieces are of date and mint mark combinations that the U.S. Mint never struck.

    I believe that he was unfortunately mistaken when he made his 1964-D Peace Dollar overstrikes, because it is a fact that a U.S. Mint DID strike 1964-D Peace dollars. I do not think that the fact that no genuine 1964-D Peace Dollars are currently and publicly known to exist makes the 1964-D overstrikes legal. Others are entitled to their opinions on the matter, and I am entitled to mine. The U.S. Government does not seem to care about them, and in the end theirs is the only opinion that matters.

    And just as an aside, many years ago I speculated that a certain person very active in the hobby in the mid-1960's might have one, and I called that person and offered that person 100 ounces of common gold bullion coins in exchange for one. That person said "That's a very interesting offer" and changed the subject. That person is now long deceased.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,842 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This has turned out to be an educational and fun thread to read.
    In reference to the subject coin: would you speculate it was die struck or cast?
    I see what appears to be bubbles, but can't tell.
    I'd also find it interesting if it is 90% silver.
    If it was struck and is 90% silver than it is one of the "better" counterfeits.

    peacockcoins

  • I guess I might as well send it in to be graded 😎

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @NJCoin said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    This ^^^^. It's actually very simple, and has nothing to do with the fact that someone like Dan is very well respected.

    No one with an intent to deceive is going to take the time to produce something that never existed, and then try to pass it off as genuine. Hence, those are fantasy pieces, no matter who is producing them, or how good (or bad) a particular example happens to be.

    A counterfeit is an altered or fake version of an actual Mint release. By definition, with an intent to deceive if it is not marked as a copy.

    I think it’s inaccurate to label a genuine, but altered coin as a counterfeit. For example, if you have a 1914 cent with an added D mintmark, it’s referred to as added mintmark, not counterfeit. Another example would be a Seated Liberty (with arrows) coin with the arrows removed. It would be labeled as tooled, altered or something else other than counterfeit.

    But what if we take a common date 1940s copper cent, take affirmative steps to eradicate as much of the original details as possible, and then overstrike it with counterfeit dies to produce a 1914-D cent, would this be a counterfeit? What about taking a 1943 steel cent and over striking a 1942 cent cent design?

    The argument that stamping a new coin over an old coin of the same design and composition deprives the resulting piece of its counterfeit status has already been rejected by at least one federal appellate court.

    https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-wilson-115

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anyway, I’ll go back to my original point. OP: Flip it on eBay as a fantasy coin and take the proceeds and apply it towards buying a real 1921 Peace Dollar.

  • cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whatever it is it looks cast. Strange crack through the O in one on reverse.

    Many happy BST transactions
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @NJCoin said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    This ^^^^. It's actually very simple, and has nothing to do with the fact that someone like Dan is very well respected.

    No one with an intent to deceive is going to take the time to produce something that never existed, and then try to pass it off as genuine. Hence, those are fantasy pieces, no matter who is producing them, or how good (or bad) a particular example happens to be.

    A counterfeit is an altered or fake version of an actual Mint release. By definition, with an intent to deceive if it is not marked as a copy.

    I think it’s inaccurate to label a genuine, but altered coin as a counterfeit. For example, if you have a 1914 cent with an added D mintmark, it’s referred to as added mintmark, not counterfeit. Another example would be a Seated Liberty (with arrows) coin with the arrows removed. It would be labeled as tooled, altered or something else other than counterfeit.

    But what if we take a common date 1940s copper cent, take affirmative steps to eradicate as much of the original details as possible, and then overstrike it with counterfeit dies to produce a 1914-D cent, would this be a counterfeit? What about taking a 1943 steel cent and over striking a 1942 cent cent design?

    The argument that stamping a new coin over an old coin of the same design and composition deprives the resulting piece of its counterfeit status has already been rejected by at least one federal appellate court.

    https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-wilson-115

    Based on the appellate court decision you linked, I think that the two hypotheticals you presented could be prosecuted under18 U.S.C. §§ 331, 485 or both.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    In reference to the subject coin: would you speculate it was die struck or cast?
    I see what appears to be bubbles, but can't tell.
    I'd also find it interesting if it is 90% silver.
    If it was struck and is 90% silver than it is one of the "better" counterfeits.

    The wire rim at the top left of the reverse suggests that it was die struck. However, the surfaces in the pictures suggest that it was cast.

    In either case, "boy would I be surprised" if it contained any silver at all, let alone 90%.

  • NJCoinNJCoin Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2024 6:00PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @NJCoin said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @JBK said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jp84 said:
    It's counterfeit

    The prefered parlance by many members here is “fantasy coin.” No Denver pieces were ever produced… No one will be fooled. 🙄😉

    "Fantasy coin" is only used if its Dan Carr. For everyone else, it's counterfeit.

    Why is he given special status? His work is materially no different than Henning’s work, the Omega man’s work, or the modern works of the orient in my humble opinion.

    A huge difference is that he strikes over genuine coins.

    Also, his creations are not intended to deceive.

    If this were overstruck on a Morgan or Peace Dollar, would it be okay? Do we know for a fact it wasn’t ? How do we know the producer of this piece intended to deceive? It is clearly marked with a D and no 1921-D Peace Dollars we’re ever issued by the Mint. Anyone with a Red Book would know.

    This ^^^^. It's actually very simple, and has nothing to do with the fact that someone like Dan is very well respected while a Chinese hack is not.

    No one with an intent to deceive is going to take the time to produce something that never existed, and then try to pass it off as genuine. Hence, those are fantasy pieces, no matter who is producing them, how good (or bad) a particular example happens to be, or whether or not it is overstruck on a genuine coin.

    A counterfeit is an altered or fake version of an actual Mint release. By definition, with an intent to deceive if it is not marked as a copy.

    I offer you the OP. Just because Dan Carr himself doesn't intend to deceive doesn't mean his creations could not be used to deceive. How hard would it be to convince a newbie that your Dan Carr piece is actually a U.S. Mint pattern.

    By your definition, the coin on this thread is not a counterfeit. It's a collectible fantasy.

    Would it be legal to take a genuine 1921 and overstrike it with a fantasy D Reverse?

    Yes, it would be. Dan Carr does it all day long, with all sorts of overstrikes that he does not label as copies, with no negative consequences.

    As long as actual coins do not exist in the purported date, mint mark, design, denomination, metallic composition, etc., as an overstrike, it is a legal fantasy coin and not a counterfeit, added mintmark, tooled, etc. illegal item.

    And, please, do not offer me the OP, who is very clearly a troll, from their post count to their responses, as opposed to a misguided soul or victim. The coin they posted is absolutely a fantasy. Collectible is in the eye of the beholder.

  • PapiNEPapiNE Posts: 269 ✭✭✭

    Pretty good fake. For me, the obv motto gives it away.

    USAF veteran 1984-2005

  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Scrape off the D mint mark and should be good … 👍

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Che_Grapes said:
    Scrape off the D mint mark and should be good … 👍

    It would still be counterfeit

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