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Is CACG Non Legacy Worth More Than CACG Legacy?
Walkerlover
Posts: 783 ✭✭✭✭
In the thread with Rexfords posts and other submitters claiming that their coins were harshly graded by CACG can this be surmised.
1) CACG is indeed the strictest grading service.
2) CACG coins that were graded raw or as a crossover are indeed worth more than Legacy Coins that were rubber stamped as a crossover from CAC. Interesting to see how this plays out. What do you guys think?
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What do you think?
Perhaps too early to tell but the different set of graders appear stricter than CAC graders. So I am inclined to think maybe the new CACG coins are somewhat undergraded and may be a good buy just like the OGH from PCGS were. Now what is your opinion?
Hallmark was suppose to be the strict grader back in the day and you see what happened. CACG just might over strict themselves right out of submissions. Who wants to submit coins knowing their coins are likely going to be undergraded and the next guy makes the money (crackout)
Gresham's Slab
Pay money for opinions and opinions are what you get.
The mere fact that CACG felt the need to designate coins as" legacy" should tell you that tightening the screws in grading was a part of their business model. Don't want anyone passing off an NGC MS65 CAC as a CACG MS65. Obviously they are not the same....gotta add an L to let everyone know and more importantly to protect the market for true CACG coins. What a bunch of crap! And for good measure we will detail grade PCGS cross over coins from the dealers who are part of our inner circle to show just how tough we are. Gotta give JA his due.....a master class in manipulating a market...well played.
While I can only speak for myself I did not think my submission to CACG was graded harshly, in fact the grades were by and large exactly what I thought they would be. As to your questions:
1) I see CACG grading as accurate and what I expect from a TPG, call a spade a spade not sell me an overgraded grade.
2) I don't know, but I think that in time all this will settle and any CACG graded coin will sell for a premium.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Based on the CACG coins I’ve seen and numismatists I’ve spoken with, much of the talk on this forum about overly harsh grading is significantly over-blown. Over the years, I’ve also heard countless comments from market participants about how harshly PCGS or NGC coins were graded, too. Just a reminder that not everything you read here is accurate.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Your various assumptions and conclusions miss the mark and badly.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It remains amazing to me what a magnet CAC/CACG is for criticism. I know there are PCGS fan boys on this forum. However, no other TPG or numismatic entity gets as much criticism or conspiracy theories.
Luke Skywalker: Noooooooooooooooooo! That's not True! That's impossible!
First of all I'd would think it's a bit too early to make judgements at this point. Even after some time is allowed it's difficult. The fact is that these TPG's need to figure out out how to stay consistent. Staying consistent is far more important that being so called "accurate". Decide on your grading standard and STICK TO IT. I'm sure CACG has decided what that is but whether that agrees with PCGS and NGC standards is the question. But whatever CACG has decided they just need to stick with it. That's all we want or need from a TPG.
jom
A few others have discussed these finer points before me. Nevertheless, the way to answer this question is first to address which TPG has more legacy stickered coins being crossed to CACG. From what we've learned thus far, it's overwhelmingly NCAC coins being crossed over to CACG L's vs. PCAC coins.
As a result of this, many others have speculated (with some of the most detailed points from our very own @DeplorableDan) that CACG L coins seem to be less desired currently because of the market bias against our friends across the street. The main point supporting this is that there's a lot of PCAC still out there that collectors and dealers will not cross over to CACG for a lot of reasons. PCGS Set Registry reasons, because PCAC coins still command a higher premium vs. NCAC / CACG L (when you believe it's mostly former NCAC coins), and also a lot of people waiting to see how the market irons itself out over time.
In the long run, I think there will be enough top quality stickered PCAC coins crossed over to CACG L, especially once the CAC Set Registry is set up, becomes competitive a la PCGS (especially given that CACG has promised theirs will include PCGS, NGC, and CACG in their registry vs. PCGS which only allows for PCGS / PCAC), and some of the bigger names agree to cross their coins over.
I would just like to add for the record that while I did explain the rationale behind this line of thinking, I do not hold the opinion that L coins should be devalued in any way. It's very early in the game and it turns out NGC stickered coins aren't the only ones crossing....this monster is certainly not worth any less in its new holder.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/four-dollar-gold-pieces/three-and-four-dollar-gold/1879-4-flowing-hair-judd-1635-pollock-1833-jd-1-r3-pr66-pcgs-cac-pcgs-8057-/a/1348-4032.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
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I know over there they go round n round about legacy. In reality if the coin goes bad in the holder the legacy dingy gesunken. But I guess they would still fight over it lol.
No I don’t see anything in CDN CPG for CAC material for that op aregument. Furthermore their decision is to value stickered and CACG the same which I agree with.
Agree with Dan above - really nice coins too.
I watched as much as I could what was being submitted to CACG today at FUN in terms a crossing. I saw, the best that I could see from the sidelines, that as many PCGS coins were being crossed as NGC holdered coins, to CACG. So overhwelmingly NGC coins being crossed? NOT as far as I could tell........................ So CACG L should do fine as predicted by @mattniss above.
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It's already happening apparently, with the DLH Proof Barber Half Set currently on display at the CACG table at FUN.
This one didn't get an L. Perhaps cracked but with the downside most wouldn't have gone that route.
You musta missed the years of ACG.
Now, only two companies in the world are under the watchful eye of one company’s. interesting they are all of the same fold.
It should be worth mentioning that my last CACG submission took 3 weeks (previous submissions were about the same) from the date of mailing to the day it was returned. CACG has the other services covered by a country mile on that front.
Don't pay money for opinions and opinions are what you get.
This is why I use dealers to buy my high end coins. I have my opinions but they know more than me.
No. I remember ACG. But you have a tense problem.
If I like the coin and it’s in a reputable slab, I don’t see the need to keep cracking it and resubmitting it for the latest market craze. That could get risky and expensive.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Who cares? Just collect what makes you happy and enjoy.
Since NGC coins in general have been priced lower and with slightly less marketability then PCGS, I assume the initial surge of NGC to CACG Legacy is sellers/dealers trying to level the pricing field and any pricing disparity. Once in the new holder, who cares where it came from, it has the CAC/CACG seal of approval. PCGS may have a higher % of the best coins, but not all of them. I could care less who first graded the coin.
The more I see these hypothetical questions, it really becomes evident that it is simply not about coins but the plastic they are currently housed in or the stickers... or possible reasons for not stickering or not crossing at legacy status. Perhaps the merit of the coin has somehow been lost in all of this. Coins at various grade levels are simply not equal. I really am less interested in the subjective overtones that may impair the perception of the coin. And that seems to be the larger issue... the elephant in the room if you will. The coin itself is what remains constant... unless it has been enhanced. And any enhancement plays a significant role at many levels in terms how it will grade and be perceived within what should be an acceptable grade range. So opinions of that coin become a moving target until the coin is maxed out at a grade that begs the question... How did this coin end up in this holder?
There is far too much weight placed on opinions that can and often do change. Look at the coin... its surfaces and its overall appearance. What are those characteristics telling you? Think about what matters .
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Perhaps it's time for a special platinum CACGL bean? Could you imagine how much we could overinflate the values then? LOL
Man long gone are the days of people collecting coins. Now we got a whole generation chasing silly little colored stickers and plastic slabs. Crazy World. More dollars than sense they say. SMH!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Agree with everything you said but unfortunately when you sell a coin the holder it’s in and the presence or absence of a sticker does make a difference and it can be very significant at times.
Including slabs that are essentially "empty".
No one knows more about whether or not I like a coin more than I do.
Isn't getting a graded coin An Opinion?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Amen, dealers and TPG's are essential filters, as are all professionals when it comes to important decisions.
I love it, Mark! Sense of humor like the desert at night.
I'm not sure what that even means, but in the words of Sheldon Cooper "is that Sarcasm".
Yes. He was kidding that even if you don't pay for an opinion (slab), people will still give you an opinion.
Like the Desert at night... Maybe it has more to do with clarity and vision- look up at the stars. There is simply a huge difference from that vantage point than from a lighted urban area. So maybe there is something to be learned and gained from what vision and clarity provides that is often overlooked.
That might be enough arm chair philosophy for one post.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
At night, the desert is dark and cold
That's my favorite sense of humor. Just because it is posted on the internet ...
I have not submitted any coins to CACG as of yet, and I am taking a break from collecting at the moment. As such, I don’t have a large enough sample size to opine on the accuracy of the statements regarding CACG’s allegedly overly conservative standards.
If, however, there is a kernel of truth to it particularly as it relates to CACG being more strict than CAC, many will begin to question whether their purportedly ultra PQ CAC stickered coins are as conservatively graded as people once thought potentially hurting their value and the CAC brand. This will be all amplified except for the top 1% if CAC the sticker company reduces its volume as a market maker and no one fills the void. FWIW, CACG standards largely look like the standards I learned in the mid 1990s. So if CAC the sticker company deviates from those standards with any significant frequency, then it is a sign CAC has acquiesced in grade inflation (I.e. the very thing it was started to help combat). If so, how does the sticker differ from any other inventory sticker (such as Tomaska’s Everest sticker, etc.)?
I also echo the comments about CACG hurting its market share if it is too strict if the market doesn’t afford a portional increase in price to compensate for the tighter standards.
In short, these threads signify confusion in the markets and may be a bad thing for CAC, CACG, and the larger market especially as many economists predict an impending recession.
>
I too do not think the coin dropped in value from its precrossover state. The question, however, is whether it would be worth even more without the little “L” on the label. That remains to be seen.
There are many collectors who insist on only the finest by most the most conservative standards. A small number of these are extremely ego driven and these are some times the one bidding coins into the stratosphere in block buster sales.
Anyone building a top tier CACG gold Registry set consisting solely of “L less” coins yet? 😉
I think I may be CACG -L only now… 😆
Some people say CACG is tighter than CAC. Others say the opposite.
Keep in mind, that if CAC thinks that a coin graded mint state deserves an AU58 grade, they simply decline to sticker it. They’ve probably been quietly doing for years, what CACG’s doing more obviously, now.
Overall, I’d bet that CACG’s grading is remarkably similar to CAC’s and that individual concerns or outrage are largely unjustified.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm reasonably certain that this happened to me exactly about 10 years ago. It was a 1920 SLQ PCGS 64 that CAC would not sticker. Looking back on it now there's a very good chance they saw rub that I did not which lead to the rejection. So, yeah, hearing now a lot of coins being put into CACG 58 doesn't surprise me in the least.
jom
Many economists have been predicting an impending recession for months if not years... that is mold news.
The real problem is the continuation in the belief that the TPG plastic and the stickers trump what can easily be learned from a reasonable look at the coin instead of the plastic. And the continuation of excluding the coin in favor of plastic from the discussion is equally problematic.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Many believe the "L" stands for NGC crossed coins. If those babies were in Fatty's, I'll buy the "L" all day long!
I don’t think people believe that’s what the “L” stands for. But rather, they think that “L” designated coins were more likely to have previously been in NGC holders, than in PCGS holders.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Hmm, sounds exactly like what I just said!
You said “Many believe the "L" stands for NGC crossed coins”.
It’s known that the “L” also stands for PCGS crossed coins. And even those who choose to assume that an “L” coin was once in an NGC holder, know that it could have been in a PCGS holder. That’s not the same thing as believing that the “L” stands for crossed NGC coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
CAC has had the highest grading standards for early coins since their inception. I can't comment on modern coins because of my lack of experience in that area. Is CACG grading tighter than CAC? Perhaps a little bit initially but give them a little more time, I'm convinced their standards will be virtually the same as CAC (J/A).
I was fortunate to have an opportunity to meet and share some thoughts on specific areas of interest with both finalizers, Ron and John. They listened and shared some interesting perspectives and analysis. Both are very impressive people who are clearly world-class graders.
Not really ....
For many US coin collectors who remain less confident/experienced in their own grading ....stickers are enormously helpful .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
L is for legacy and indicates a crossover (at same grade) of a PCGS or NGC coin that was also stickered by CAC prior to June 2023.
Not real obvious in CAC website what Legacy is. Where can I find definitions CAC Legacy, NGC CAC Legacy, PCGS CAC Legacy, etc. What is CAC Legacy ? I own NGC CAC and PCGS CAC material, is it Legacy stuff ? Is it worth keeping anymore. Please we need some explanation. Or no maybe I need it ?