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Should there be AU59 and AU59+ grades?

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

Given some MS64 and MS65s are being converted to AU58+ coins, should there be an AU59 and AU59+ grades for these exceptional coins?

Should there be AU59 and AU59+ grades?

This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
«1

Comments

  • ShaunBC5ShaunBC5 Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    I’m good with there just being some really PQ 58s (or 58+s)

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,601 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    Me thinks PQ, + and Star addresses that space.

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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,208 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    This proposal would sure generate a lot of income for the grading services from collectors submitting their AU58's for the reconsideration service. :D

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    Probably with US coins as well, I know one thing about Canadian coin grading and that is, the most difficult grade range for a grader to stay consistent is au58 to ms62.

    What the same coin looks like on one day as 'a low grade MS coin' looks like on another day as 'a very high grade circulated coin'. (ms62-au58).

    Please.....no more grading numbers.

    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    No, 58 and 58+ are precise enough!

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set:

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    On the 70 pt. scale, they already exist, along with many other never used grades. :D

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • epcepc Posts: 106 ✭✭✭
    No

    What was Nancy Reagan's message?

    Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states

  • No

    No

  • shishshish Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    Please, no more grading numbers.

    Unfortunately we do not have well defined grading standards, adding grades is not a good idea.

    Liberty Seated and Trade Dollar Specialist
  • david3142david3142 Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    I’m amazed that there is a statement with (at the moment) 100% agreement anywhere on the internet. Bravo finding something that can unite us all!

  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 8:36AM
    Yes

    I am the only one that voted yes. Why call it a 70 point grading system if you don't use all 70 grades? Yes I think all 70 grades and - and+ for each one. All 70 grades should be used from 1- to 70. 70 being the top end all as it is now. Why not VG-11 or F13 or XF48+ ? When is a 70 point system not a 70 point system? When it is used for coin grading! I may want to put together an XF-49 type set some day

    image
  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When you start your next thread and ask should there be ms69+, I’m a yes for that one. There are some significant coins right now that deserve that grade.

  • david3142david3142 Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 9:06AM
    No

    @rec78 said:
    I am the only one that voted yes. Why call it a 70 point grading system if you don't use all 70 grades? Yes I think all 70 grades and - and+ for each one. All 70 grades should be used from 1- to 70. 70 being the top end all as it is now. Why not VG-11 or F13 or XF48+ ? When is a 70 point system not a 70 point system? When it is used for coin grading! I may want to put together an XF-49 type set some day

    Aw man, I knew it couldn’t last!

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 3,047 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    I voted no but if it helps burn down Sheldon 70 point grading, than yes.

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,316 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    Absolutely ... I mean, why not? Please, no 70+ though!

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @david3142 said:

    @rec78 said:
    I am the only one that voted yes. Why call it a 70 point grading system if you don't use all 70 grades? Yes I think all 70 grades and - and+ for each one. All 70 grades should be used from 1- to 70. 70 being the top end all as it is now. Why not VG-11 or F13 or XF48+ ? When is a 70 point system not a 70 point system? When it is used for coin grading! I may want to put together an XF-49 type set some day

    Aw man, I knew it couldn’t last!

    It was nice while it lasted!

  • privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,142 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    What about a G5 and G7? VG9 and VG11? F13 F14? Where do we draw the line?

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    But what about 59+?? I can see it now… everyman collectors, clamoring for, and crack out artists trying to make a 59+!!’ 🤣😂😝

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set:

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • coastaljerseyguycoastaljerseyguy Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    No, just stricter adherence to what an AU58 coin should be. An original MS64 with the slightest rub that at first glance the coin appears uncirculated. Probably the most inconsistent/inflated grade. The + is enough.

  • RobertScotLoverRobertScotLover Posts: 518 ✭✭✭✭
    No

    I don't even understand how most collectors distinguish between au58 (insert any grade) and au58+. I believe the plus is ridiculous already.
    Yes I get that it is a nicer au58 but how one actually differentiate between the 2 is a nightmare

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    No. There is too much hairsplitting already, and my fear is that the AU-58 grade will be partially discredited.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,346 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    For the record, after I invented AU-58 (and MS-63 and 67) I did grade one coin as an AU-59 (a Barber Dime), but after we sent it out I decided that this was not a good idea and we never did another in my time at ANACS.

    Very cool! I wonder if that AU59 is still around today. Any way to check the census?

  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,176 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    If some AU58 coins look better than MS62/63 coins, then what grade scale would an AU59/59+ look better than? It will turn into many "Do you think my coin is undergraded" posts.

  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    No, one persons 65 is anothers 58 so how could we possibly distinguish a 58 from at 59?


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  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    @DoubleEagle59 said:
    Probably with US coins as well, I know one thing about Canadian coin grading and that is, the most difficult grade range for a grader to stay consistent is au58 to ms62.

    What the same coin looks like on one day as 'a low grade MS coin' looks like on another day as 'a very high grade circulated coin'. (ms62-au58).

    Please.....no more grading numbers.

    You realize the the MS in MS62 is short for mint state. No such thing a a circulated mint state coin.

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  • AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    Too much NGC-X style for me.

  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    No. For the same reason we don’t have XF43/48.

  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 2:09PM
    No

    @gumby1234 said:

    @DoubleEagle59 said:
    Probably with US coins as well, I know one thing about Canadian coin grading and that is, the most difficult grade range for a grader to stay consistent is au58 to ms62.

    What the same coin looks like on one day as 'a low grade MS coin' looks like on another day as 'a very high grade circulated coin'. (ms62-au58).

    Please.....no more grading numbers.

    You realize the the MS in MS62 is short for mint state. No such thing a a circulated mint state coin.

    My point was this...

    an au58, being the highest circulated coin can at times to the imperfect human eye(ie., grader) , on another day, look like a very low quality mint state coin.

    God does not grade coins, men and women do.

    There is no 'fence post' between grades.

    Do you think all the old MS coins have never been in circulation for a week or two, or longer?

    Also...I have a bit of experience in the difficulties of being spot on in grading, as I graded diamonds for over 30 years and I certainly could easily give a slightly different diamond grade to the same diamond that I saw a second time months later.

    Remember, in theory, the very highest ms64, is the lowest ms65....depends on many factors that day what the grader will be calling it.

    What you never want to see is a two grade differential when re-grading a coin (or diamond).

    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,369 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 2:10PM
    No

    Thats why many people aren't liking CACG so far. Then downgrades to 58. I think its a good thing.
    Edit to add @DoubleEagle59

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  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    @CaptHenway said:
    For the record, after I invented AU-58 (and MS-63 and 67) I did grade one coin as an AU-59 (a Barber Dime), but after we sent it out I decided that this was not a good idea and we never did another in my time at ANACS.

    Would love to have that slab!

    It might be asking a lot but do you remember the date? Do you recall the holder it would have been in? A small soap bar?

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    @OAKSTAR said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    For the record, after I invented AU-58 (and MS-63 and 67) I did grade one coin as an AU-59 (a Barber Dime), but after we sent it out I decided that this was not a good idea and we never did another in my time at ANACS.

    Would love to have that slab!

    It might be asking a lot but do you remember the date? Do you recall the holder it would have been in? A small soap bar?

    What slab? Slabbing started some years after I left ANACS. This was a photo certificate.

    As to the date on the coin, I have no idea, and the records from those years are unavailable.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 3:50PM

    @CaptHenway said:

    @OAKSTAR said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    For the record, after I invented AU-58 (and MS-63 and 67) I did grade one coin as an AU-59 (a Barber Dime), but after we sent it out I decided that this was not a good idea and we never did another in my time at ANACS.

    Would love to have that slab!

    It might be asking a lot but do you remember the date? Do you recall the holder it would have been in? A small soap bar?

    What slab? Slabbing started some years after I left ANACS. This was a photo certificate.

    As to the date on the coin, I have no idea, and the records from those years are unavailable.

    It’s a shame ANACS doesn’t have photos or scans of the certificates issued from that time.

  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    @CaptHenway said:

    @OAKSTAR said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    For the record, after I invented AU-58 (and MS-63 and 67) I did grade one coin as an AU-59 (a Barber Dime), but after we sent it out I decided that this was not a good idea and we never did another in my time at ANACS.

    Would love to have that slab!

    It might be asking a lot but do you remember the date? Do you recall the holder it would have been in? A small soap bar?

    What slab? Slabbing started some years after I left ANACS. This was a photo certificate.

    As to the date on the coin, I have no idea, and the records from those years are unavailable.

    Oh, shoot! Sorry, never mind.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • kruegerkrueger Posts: 792 ✭✭✭
    No

    I look at all AU58 coins with a quality parcing eye.

    "A" quality , / PQ eye appeal, nice acceptable surfaces not offending me just some high point wear, very light wear, maybe some would grade higher, maybe some nice color etc. Attractive. The eye appeal coin others would call PQ for grade. Maybe a "+" grade.

    "B" quality, / better than others i've seen, a little less attractive but acceptable looks , fields marks minimal but can be seen . If need the coin would keep it based more on label grade. "I guess it's OK to keep" based on others I have seen. More common in the grade then "A"quality

    "C" quality,/ not attractive fields , much more pervasive fields scratchyness. More bottom end of grade span.
    Not a coin I would like or keep. Unless very rare date etc. More common still in this state of preservation.
    I would try to upgrade this coin in grade for a better eye appeal one.

    "D" quality/ I can't stand the opinion on the grade , offends me , I will PASS on it, i've seen some in this grade that I shake my head . Who wants this! Grade mistake, probably cleaned at some point , fields terrible. scratchyness like a haze it's so bad.

    I learned this tecnique from a Jeff Gareth seminar at an ANA show.
    I I expanded on it for my preferences. Covering the AU58 Grade
    for an everyman collector.

  • CRHer700CRHer700 Posts: 446 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    I would also appreciate actual grades for details coins.

    Cheers, CRHer700 :mrgreen:

  • AotearoaAotearoa Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    @CRHer700 said:
    I would also appreciate actual grades for details coins.

    Submit to ANACS.

    Smitten with DBLCs.

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    AU59...is that already being used as 58+ ?

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 5:57PM
    No

    I think the 2-point jump from AU-58 to MS-60 (admittedly not many coins at that grade compared to other MS's) causes folks to make sure a coin is circulated (AU) or truly Mint State (even if really baggy and low-60's).

    AU-59 would just add to the confusion at this critical inflection point of grading. Let's face it, some minute wear is tough to ID as such as opposed to bag marks.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    As far as I'm concerned any 58 can also be a ms62 coin
    So, NO here

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,601 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    Increasing the resolution of the grading scale without increasing precision and accuracy of grading is folly.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 7:01PM

    @messydesk said:
    Increasing the resolution of the grading scale without increasing precision and accuracy of grading is folly.

    But it would be increasing the precision and accuracy because AU60+ market grades could be captured by the new technical grades.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,601 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:
    Increasing the resolution of the grading scale without increasing precision and accuracy of grading is folly.

    But it would be increasing the precision and accuracy because AU60+ marker grades could be captured by the new technical grades.

    No, that simply increases the capability of declaring a specific grade. Increasing the precision would mean increasing the degree to which a grade is repeatable. Increasing the accuracy means reducing the error between a number of attempted gradings and the true grade. Neither precision nor accuracy are high enough across the industry to warrant increasing the resolution of the grading scale.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 7:06PM

    @messydesk said:

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:
    Increasing the resolution of the grading scale without increasing precision and accuracy of grading is folly.

    But it would be increasing the precision and accuracy because AU60+ marker grades could be captured by the new technical grades.

    No, that simply increases the capability of declaring a specific grade. Increasing the precision would mean increasing the degree to which a grade is repeatable. Increasing the accuracy means reducing the error between a number of attempted gradings and the true grade. Neither precision nor accuracy are high enough across the industry to warrant increasing the resolution of the grading scale.

    It could be more precise and accurate than what we have today. To some extent, that is what the grading service is seeking to achieve and this would provide a technical grade vehicle for market graded AU60+ scenario.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,601 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:
    Increasing the resolution of the grading scale without increasing precision and accuracy of grading is folly.

    But it would be increasing the precision and accuracy because AU60+ marker grades could be captured by the new technical grades.

    No, that simply increases the capability of declaring a specific grade. Increasing the precision would mean increasing the degree to which a grade is repeatable. Increasing the accuracy means reducing the error between a number of attempted gradings and the true grade. Neither precision nor accuracy are high enough across the industry to warrant increasing the resolution of the grading scale.

    It could be more precise and accurate than what we have today. To some extent, that is what the grading service is seeking to achieve and this would provide a technical grade vehicle for market graded AU60+ scenario.

    Grading needs to be more precise and accurate. The scale needs only be of sufficient resolution to express the precision and accuracy of grading.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 7:26PM

    @messydesk said:

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:

    @Zoins said:

    @messydesk said:
    Increasing the resolution of the grading scale without increasing precision and accuracy of grading is folly.

    But it would be increasing the precision and accuracy because AU60+ marker grades could be captured by the new technical grades.

    No, that simply increases the capability of declaring a specific grade. Increasing the precision would mean increasing the degree to which a grade is repeatable. Increasing the accuracy means reducing the error between a number of attempted gradings and the true grade. Neither precision nor accuracy are high enough across the industry to warrant increasing the resolution of the grading scale.

    It could be more precise and accurate than what we have today. To some extent, that is what the grading service is seeking to achieve and this would provide a technical grade vehicle for market graded AU60+ scenario.

    Grading needs to be more precise and accurate. The scale needs only be of sufficient resolution to express the precision and accuracy of grading.

    True, but one issue may be that it may not have enough resolution today given use of technical grading by a major TPG.

  • fluffy155fluffy155 Posts: 221 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 8:22PM
    No

    What we need is to uncouple surface quality from wear. PCGS already uses 18 points for MS coins that really just reflects the preservation of the surface, it's just an artifact of the Sheldon scale that limits that to unc coins. Trying to distill the whole coin down to one number is always going to be an incomplete solution, all the extra AU grades (and market grades like "AU62") are ad-hoc ways to work around that issue. A system like NGC uses for ancients but with wear/surface instead of strike/surface would be ideal IMO, but the ship has sailed on that I guess.

    Edit: It would also solve the CACG problem in the other thread.

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