OK then, semantics. I agree with your math, but I don't call 30+% a SMALL minority, i call that a minority!
With that said, when it comes to Gold coins, since apparently MANY underwent surface treatments that CAC and CACG deem unacceptable, even though apparently it's acceptable to the TPG's, I agree that with gold coins, only a small minority get approved!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@1madman said:
Perhaps I’m the only one thinking this, but the dealer you submitted through clearly doesn’t know how to grade. He should’ve been more selective to either have you submit only a small handful of the coins (~5), or submit none at all because financially it wouldn’t be worth it on the entire group. He charges a few hundred dollars for his time, and goes 3/11?
Mostly agreed but even quality graders/dealers can make mistakes. I bought an extraordinarily original coin from a well known dealer (& CACG investor). Great luster but under a THICK patina...he didn't bother to submit it because it had no shot in his opinion and you know the rest...
Gold cac sticker now?
No, not quite that good, it's properly graded, but green.
Again, I thank you all for your input. But I think I've taken this as far as I can and still be productive. So I'll sign off from this thread now, unless something comes up that might be useful to this thread (like I find out why the coins were rejected).
@124Spider - not all coins have been submitted for CAC review so one should be careful with drawing assumptions using percentages of the entire population of a given coin.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I have no problem with posting photos of the coins that were rejected by CAC. But I cannot believe that I'll learn anything from whatever people may say about them. We examined them with a 3x loupe before submitting them, and I do believe that the dealer is experienced at this process. I expect that people would say, about my rejects, that they are very nice coins, but there must be something about them....
It could simply be the coins were not solid for the grade; i. e., a 65 would be a 64+ at CACG.
For example, this coin was downgraded from a 66 to a 65+ by CACG.
I agree that that is the case. My issue (among many others), is that "solid for the grade" shouldn't be a small minority of the coins graded by NGC and PCGS. Anyone can start a third-party grading business, and simply grade "harder" than the two premier TPGs, but I seriously question why that is good for the hobby. I agree that gradeflation, if, indeed, it has happened, should be checked. But, de facto, PCGS and NGC define the scale, and CAC is trying to change that; all that does, IMO, is cause confusion.
I wouldn't describe an approximate pass rate of 43% as a "small minority".
And CAC isn't trying to change the grading scale. Long before it emerged in 2007, many market participants were already classifying coins of various grades as high-end, low-end, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@JWP said:
I just sent the 6-2021 Morgan-peace dollars coins to CACG. My cost was $148 plus my shipping cost to send them. These are the 1st coins I have sent to CACG and have been more than happy with their service so far. I will post the results with they are returned from Va Beach, Va. These have been in my safe since receiving them from the USM in 2021, so I thought it would be good to get them graded. Hopefully they will be graded as MS68 or MS69.
My 6-2021 Morgan/Peace dollars have been graded and are currently in shipping status back to me today. They were graded MS70 Morgan P, Morgan CC, and Morgan O. The other 3 were graded MS69 Peace P, Morgan S, and morgan D. I'm not surprised about the Denver; it seems that a lot of these had troubles. I was surprised at the San Fransisco morgan and especially disappointed with the Peace dollar. Overall, I'm happy. My first time sending a coin to CACG.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
"it's evident that CAC is trying (with some success, apparently) to redefine the scale."
"I agree that is the case. My issue (among many others), is that "solid for the grade" shouldn't be a small minority of the coins graded by NGC and PCGS. But, de facto, PCGS and NGC define the scale, and CAC is trying to change that; all that does, IMO, is cause confusion."
I understand you don't have much experience submitting coins to CAC.
CAC has been in business for about 15 years, their grading standards have always been stricter and more consistent than the other TPG's. Unfortunately CAC is more necessary now than ever because the TPG's accuracy, consistency, and customer service have continued to decline.
The reason CAC is only approving about 40% of the coins graded by the other TPG's is because they have loosened their grading standards. The approval percentage is even lower for early silver and gold coins.
You claim that "PCGS and NGC define the grading scale" to which I say only if dealers and collectors accept their grading.
Many numismatists need help selecting premium quality coins and CAC provides a valuable service to them. One thing for certain is J/A has helped many numismatists including me become more confident and accurate graders.
As a long time CAC member I will try to help you understand better what PCGS or NGC MS-65 graded coin will pass CAC. If CAC determines that the coin is an MS-65.4 or better it will receive a green sticker. If CAC determines that the coin grades 65.0 to 65.3 it receives no sticker but it is still accurately graded in its PCGS or NGC slab.
This works the same way for all grades.
To determine if CAC feels the coin is lower than accurately graded (or if CAC feels the coin is damaged/details coin) simply place a small post-it note on some of the slabs you are concerned about asking CAC to post any comments for educational purposes and quite often CAC will add their comments at no extra charge.
I have no problem with posting photos of the coins that were rejected by CAC. But I cannot believe that I'll learn anything from whatever people may say about them. We examined them with a 3x loupe before submitting them, and I do believe that the dealer is experienced at this process. I expect that people would say, about my rejects, that they are very nice coins, but there must be something about them....
It could simply be the coins were not solid for the grade; i. e., a 65 would be a 64+ at CACG.
For example, this coin was downgraded from a 66 to a 65+ by CACG.
>
To your point, I randomly inquired about a coin to a dealer who posted many new CACG slabbed coins in high grades. Here was his reply about his experience crossing over:
I do think the way @DeplorableDan explained the process was very informative and @DisneyFan made a point that lines up with other things I’ve read and heard.
CAC consistency is what matters. I’ll soon have my rattler grades back and I’ll post up as well.
Comments
OK then, semantics. I agree with your math, but I don't call 30+% a SMALL minority, i call that a minority!
With that said, when it comes to Gold coins, since apparently MANY underwent surface treatments that CAC and CACG deem unacceptable, even though apparently it's acceptable to the TPG's, I agree that with gold coins, only a small minority get approved!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
No, not quite that good, it's properly graded, but green.
Again, I thank you all for your input. But I think I've taken this as far as I can and still be productive. So I'll sign off from this thread now, unless something comes up that might be useful to this thread (like I find out why the coins were rejected).
@124Spider - not all coins have been submitted for CAC review so one should be careful with drawing assumptions using percentages of the entire population of a given coin.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I wouldn't describe an approximate pass rate of 43% as a "small minority".
And CAC isn't trying to change the grading scale. Long before it emerged in 2007, many market participants were already classifying coins of various grades as high-end, low-end, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My 6-2021 Morgan/Peace dollars have been graded and are currently in shipping status back to me today. They were graded MS70 Morgan P, Morgan CC, and Morgan O. The other 3 were graded MS69 Peace P, Morgan S, and morgan D. I'm not surprised about the Denver; it seems that a lot of these had troubles. I was surprised at the San Fransisco morgan and especially disappointed with the Peace dollar. Overall, I'm happy. My first time sending a coin to CACG.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
You mean CACG right?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
"it's evident that CAC is trying (with some success, apparently) to redefine the scale."
"I agree that is the case. My issue (among many others), is that "solid for the grade" shouldn't be a small minority of the coins graded by NGC and PCGS. But, de facto, PCGS and NGC define the scale, and CAC is trying to change that; all that does, IMO, is cause confusion."
I understand you don't have much experience submitting coins to CAC.
CAC has been in business for about 15 years, their grading standards have always been stricter and more consistent than the other TPG's. Unfortunately CAC is more necessary now than ever because the TPG's accuracy, consistency, and customer service have continued to decline.
The reason CAC is only approving about 40% of the coins graded by the other TPG's is because they have loosened their grading standards. The approval percentage is even lower for early silver and gold coins.
You claim that "PCGS and NGC define the grading scale" to which I say only if dealers and collectors accept their grading.
Many numismatists need help selecting premium quality coins and CAC provides a valuable service to them. One thing for certain is J/A has helped many numismatists including me become more confident and accurate graders.
As a long time CAC member I will try to help you understand better what PCGS or NGC MS-65 graded coin will pass CAC. If CAC determines that the coin is an MS-65.4 or better it will receive a green sticker. If CAC determines that the coin grades 65.0 to 65.3 it receives no sticker but it is still accurately graded in its PCGS or NGC slab.
This works the same way for all grades.
To determine if CAC feels the coin is lower than accurately graded (or if CAC feels the coin is damaged/details coin) simply place a small post-it note on some of the slabs you are concerned about asking CAC to post any comments for educational purposes and quite often CAC will add their comments at no extra charge.
>
To your point, I randomly inquired about a coin to a dealer who posted many new CACG slabbed coins in high grades. Here was his reply about his experience crossing over:
I do think the way @DeplorableDan explained the process was very informative and @DisneyFan made a point that lines up with other things I’ve read and heard.
CAC consistency is what matters. I’ll soon have my rattler grades back and I’ll post up as well.