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CAC Submission--Results Are In

124Spider124Spider Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 1, 2024 3:04PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I have a few higher-value coins that I think may deserve a CAC green sticker. I'm not a member of CAC, and CAC apparently is not accepting new members. So I have to bring the coins to a CAC-member dealer to get them submitted.

The nearest is over an hour from me.

I'm a bit leery about leaving many thousands of dollars worth of coins with an unknown dealer.

Am I being silly? Are there things I can do to lessen the risk?

Thanks.

Mark

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Comments

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At #734, my sense is it’ll take more than just a few months. Maybe late Spring or during the Summer?

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,435 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2024 9:32PM

    No I don’t. Yes it would make me nervous too putting super expensive stuff in the mail.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭

    Why an waiting list?? For what??? To have a coin certified??? Make no sense.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2024 4:46AM

    @silviosi said:
    Why a waiting list?? For what??? To have a coin certified??? Makes no sense.

    Makes no sense if you don’t mind disorganization with more than a few complaints about customer service and apparently LOOOOONG wait times for grading.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @silviosi said:
    Why an waiting list?? For what??? To have a coin certified??? Make no sense.

    I thank you for your helpful response....

  • ScarsdaleCoinScarsdaleCoin Posts: 5,170 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @124Spider said:
    I have a few higher-value coins that I think may deserve a CAC green sticker. I'm not a member of CAC, and CAC apparently is not accepting new members. So I have to bring the coins to a CAC-member dealer to get them submitted.

    The nearest is over an hour from me.

    I'm a bit leery about leaving many thousands of dollars worth of coins with an unknown dealer.

    Am I being silly? Are there things I can do to lessen the risk?

    Thanks.

    Mark

    Yes silly…. if they are CAC authorized dealers they are vetted and reputable. Certainly would feel more comfortable to a dealer than just giving to a member here to do for you….

    Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That said, the wait list is moving at a rate that suggests that I'll be off it in early 2026. Really.

    Maybe I'll have to make that drive to the dealer that's a member.

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,703 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @124Spider said:
    That said, the wait list is moving at a rate that suggests that I'll be off it in early 2026. Really.

    Maybe I'll have to make that drive to the dealer that's a member.

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    CAC awards stickers to coins that they feel are solid for the grade or better.
    Your chances of receiving a sticker depend upon the coin, itself, not an overall percentage of successful submissions.
    As an example, the percentage of MS66 Saint Gaudens $20's that have stickered is probably tiny, compared to the percentage for a number of other coins types and grades.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @124Spider said:
    That said, the wait list is moving at a rate that suggests that I'll be off it in early 2026. Really.

    Maybe I'll have to make that drive to the dealer that's a member.

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    CAC awards stickers to coins that they feel are solid for the grade or better.
    Your chances of receiving a sticker depend upon the coin, itself, not an overall percentage of successful submissions.
    As an example, the percentage of MS66 Saint Gaudens $20's that have stickered is probably tiny, compared to the percentage for a number of other coins types and grades.

    Yeah, I understand that they "approve" of coins "solid for the grade, or better." But I don't know what that means.

    Obviously, coins which fit within a grade are a continuum, from the very bottom of the grade to the very top of the grade. Is "solid" the top half of that continuum? The top 10%? The top 2/3?

    I'm a numbers guy; I just want to be able to figure my pot odds. I can look up what, say, Greysheet feels is the difference in value for a particular coin with and without a CAC green sticker. And I can figure out how much it costs me to submit a coin for approval. And I can get pretty good ta grading the coins I care about, in the grades I care about. But I don't yet know where along the continuum of a grade "solid for the grade or better" lies.

    Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.

  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @124Spider said:
    Obviously, coins which fit within a grade are a continuum, from the very bottom of the grade to the very top of the grade. Is "solid" the top half of that continuum? The top 10%? The top 2/3?

    I'm a numbers guy; I just want to be able to figure my pot odds. I can look up what, say, Greysheet feels is the difference in value for a particular coin with and without a CAC green sticker. And I can figure out how much it costs me to submit a coin for approval. And I can get pretty good ta grading the coins I care about, in the grades I care about. But I don't yet know where along the continuum of a grade "solid for the grade or better" lies.

    Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.

    You can't put odds on whether it will sticker. It is either a coin that CAC likes or not, there is no way to tell until it is submitted. It depends on whether your taste in coins is the same as theirs and that is independent of some random odds making. HST, your coin will be worth 30% more if its slab has a CAC sticker on it, so mail them to a certified CAC dealer and let them submit for you to see if you get that boost. Small price to pay for increasing the value........... There are plenty dealers that can do this for you as shown on their website so one does not have to drive an hour, just mail them after contacting and agreeing with said dealer.....................

    In terms of how fast they can add new members, I would not be too optimistic for quick membership - I have an express submission to CACG right now and they are already not meeting their estimated grading times. They are not as bad as other TPG's that hope to get your coins back to you in this lifetime, but clearly, demand for their services is high meaning they won't be able to add new members with supersonic speed. Just sayin'

    Best, SH


    Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,703 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @124Spider said:

    @MFeld said:

    @124Spider said:
    That said, the wait list is moving at a rate that suggests that I'll be off it in early 2026. Really.

    Maybe I'll have to make that drive to the dealer that's a member.

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    CAC awards stickers to coins that they feel are solid for the grade or better.
    Your chances of receiving a sticker depend upon the coin, itself, not an overall percentage of successful submissions.
    As an example, the percentage of MS66 Saint Gaudens $20's that have stickered is probably tiny, compared to the percentage for a number of other coins types and grades.

    Yeah, I understand that they "approve" of coins "solid for the grade, or better." But I don't know what that means.

    Obviously, coins which fit within a grade are a continuum, from the very bottom of the grade to the very top of the grade. Is "solid" the top half of that continuum? The top 10%? The top 2/3?

    I'm a numbers guy; I just want to be able to figure my pot odds. I can look up what, say, Greysheet feels is the difference in value for a particular coin with and without a CAC green sticker. And I can figure out how much it costs me to submit a coin for approval. And I can get pretty good ta grading the coins I care about, in the grades I care about. But I don't yet know where along the continuum of a grade "solid for the grade or better" lies.

    Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.

    Said another way, CAC classifies coins of each grade as being of A (high-end), B (mid-range) or C (low-end) quality and stickers the A and B quality pieces.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2024 12:31PM

    As @DisneyFan says, there are coins (especially gold coins) that have had "surface treatments" that are not acceptable to CAC but apparently lre acceptable to the TPG's. As such, if CAC fails a coin for that reason, regardless of how strong the coin is for the grade on the TPG label, EVEN if undergraded, they will not sticker the coin. Separately, if CAC determines there is a "rub" on a high point of a coin, my understanding is they will not sticker it at any MS grade, but only at an AU grade.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • slider23slider23 Posts: 632 ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, I understand that they "approve" of coins "solid for the grade, or better." But I don't know what that means.

    1) The coin is solid for grade.
    2) Strong eye appeal and original skin helps getting the sticker. Some coins that have been correctly dipped still can sticker.
    3) The following issues will often cause the coin to not sticker: cleaning hairlines, scratches, spots, PVC issues, active contaminates, damage, and coin problems in general.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @slider23 said:

    Yeah, I understand that they "approve" of coins "solid for the grade, or better." But I don't know what that means.

    1) The coin is solid for grade.
    2) Strong eye appeal and original skin helps getting the sticker. Some coins that have been correctly dipped still can sticker.
    3) The following issues will often cause the coin to not sticker: cleaning hairlines, scratches, spots, PVC issues, active contaminates, damage, and coin problems in general.

    I guess "sliders" will not sticker either. Is that correct, @slider23 :D

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @124Spider said:
    Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.

    When I first submitted coins I did not have submission ability as I do now, so I asked both Mark Feld (when he was a dealer) and a Lincoln collector friend from the NGC forum to send in some coins for me. Those first few submissions my success rate was very high, around 90% pass with a few gold beans because I very carefully screened what I sent in. Later after I had direct submissions ability I sent in more liner coins (as I had already sent in the best) and as expected my pass rate was lower. The point here is that trying to use random data is not very useful as you have no idea if those results came from carefully selected coins or just everything including the kitchen sink.

    My suggestion; pick ten coins to submit. These don't have to be super expensive but be honest with your selections. Choose three coins that you think are undergraded, or are at the very top of the grade. Three that are not undergraded but really nice, better than average for the grade. And four that are in your view marginal for the grade.

    Submit these ten coins thru the dealer you choose and see how the results align with your expectations. That way you get results biased on your predictions rather than random other people. Granted ten coins is a small amount of data, but trying this will provide you with some meaningful results with a limited level of loss risk as you don't need to send your most expensive coins for this test run.

    Just food for thought.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • slider23slider23 Posts: 632 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2024 1:18PM

    Steve, I am not sure what a slider is after looking at some of the recent CACG grading, but if I can find one with strong eye appeal and original skin, I like my chances for a green sticker.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As you suspect, I'm just kidding around with your forum name. :)

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:
    Agree with Dan, unless you are in a huge rush you should apply and be able to become a CAC member without too long a wait. If you need this done quickly and are not comfortable with using a local(ish) dealer I am planning to send coins to NJ for stickers in Jan and would be happy to include your coins. I have submitted coins for another forum member with no problems.

    The downside for you is that there is some extra expense due to the double shipping involved.

    When I submitted coin/s to CAC for someone else I just had CAC return the coins to the owner and not to me. You could have 2 submissions in the same package and request yours be returned to you and his returned to him. Shouldn't be a problem.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,255 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2024 2:32PM

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,255 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @124Spider said:
    That said, the wait list is moving at a rate that suggests that I'll be off it in early 2026. Really.

    Maybe I'll have to make that drive to the dealer that's a member.

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    CAC awards stickers to coins that they feel are solid for the grade or better.
    Your chances of receiving a sticker depend upon the coin, itself, not an overall percentage of successful submissions.
    As an example, the percentage of MS66 Saint Gaudens $20's that have stickered is probably tiny, compared to the percentage for a number of other coins types and grades.

    Yeah, I understand that they "approve" of coins "solid for the grade, or better." But I don't know what that means.

    Obviously, coins which fit within a grade are a continuum, from the very bottom of the grade to the very top of the grade. Is "solid" the top half of that continuum? The top 10%? The top 2/3?

    I'm a numbers guy; I just want to be able to figure my pot odds. I can look up what, say, Greysheet feels is the difference in value for a particular coin with and without a CAC green sticker. And I can figure out how much it costs me to submit a coin for approval. And I can get pretty good ta grading the coins I care about, in the grades I care about. But I don't yet know where along the continuum of a grade "solid for the grade or better" lies.

    Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.

    43%

  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2024 2:54PM

    Thanks, @jmlanzaf! That 43% figure is exactly what I was hoping to learn.

    Not bad odds (assuming one is fair and accurate with one's assessment of the condition of one's coins), given the upside for the more expensive coins!

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2024 3:11PM

    @DisneyFan said:

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    Ah, this seems to answer another question I've had about CACG grading--what would CACG grade a "C" coin? I infer from your answer that they call it a "plus" for the next lower grade; is that correct?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,255 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2024 3:06PM

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    The CACG grade is irrelevant to the stickering question.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

    It is not reasonable to assume that every coin without a sticker has either of those. A good number of 65 CAC rejects have none of those.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

    It is not reasonable to assume that every coin without a sticker has either of those. A good number of 65 CAC rejects have none of those.

    What has your experience been?

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

    It is not reasonable to assume that every coin without a sticker has either of those. A good number of 65 CAC rejects have none of those.

    What has your experience been?

    That every coin should be judged on its own merits. You cannot develop a bright line rule based on an ambiguous opinion. The denial of a sticker can be because it is low end for the grade, that it is overgraded, or it could be a problem coin. We don’t know without seeing the coin.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,255 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2024 7:01PM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

    It is not reasonable to assume that every coin without a sticker has either of those. A good number of 65 CAC rejects have none of those.

    What has your experience been?

    That every coin should be judged on its own merits. You cannot develop a bright line rule based on an ambiguous opinion. The denial of a sticker can be because it is low end for the grade, that it is overgraded, or it could be a problem coin. We don’t know without seeing the coin.

    This is the point, well stated. It is also the reason that CAC refused to publish a list of coins that failed to CAC. People would then assume they were defective when they are, in fact, not necessarily problem coins. They could be problem-free "C" coins.

    From the CAC website FAQs:

    Q: Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?
    A: Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

    Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

  • CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,511 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

    It is not reasonable to assume that every coin without a sticker has either of those. A good number of 65 CAC rejects have none of those.

    What has your experience been?

    That every coin should be judged on its own merits. You cannot develop a bright line rule based on an ambiguous opinion. The denial of a sticker can be because it is low end for the grade, that it is overgraded, or it could be a problem coin. We don’t know without seeing the coin.

    This is the point, well stated. It is also the reason that CAC refused to publish a list of coins that failed to CAC. People would then assume they were defective when they are, in fact, not necessarily problem coins. They could be problem-free "C" coins.

    From the CAC website FAQs:

    Q: Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?
    A: Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

    Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

    To touch on my comments in a previous thread that some balked at.. Your comment is why crossing a PC or NG coin to CACG that had been rejected for stickering at CAC is NOT an "automatic downgrade from say a 65 to 64/64+" as many assume/suggest since CACG uses the whole grade range while CAC Stickering only uses the top end of the range.

    The more you VAM..
  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 4:54AM

    @CascadeChris said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

    It is not reasonable to assume that every coin without a sticker has either of those. A good number of 65 CAC rejects have none of those.

    What has your experience been?

    That every coin should be judged on its own merits. You cannot develop a bright line rule based on an ambiguous opinion. The denial of a sticker can be because it is low end for the grade, that it is overgraded, or it could be a problem coin. We don’t know without seeing the coin.

    This is the point, well stated. It is also the reason that CAC refused to publish a list of coins that failed to CAC. People would then assume they were defective when they are, in fact, not necessarily problem coins. They could be problem-free "C" coins.

    From the CAC website FAQs:

    Q: Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?
    A: Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

    Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

    To touch on my comments in a previous thread that some balked at.. Your comment is why crossing a PC or NG coin to CACG that had been rejected for stickering at CAC is NOT an "automatic downgrade from say a 65 to 64/64+" as many assume/suggest since CACG uses the whole grade range while CAC Stickering only uses the top end of the range.

    Good luck! Regarding your implication that CACG is using the same whole grade range as the TPG's, I'm not convinced that CACG will cross most problem-free "C" coins at the same whole grade, as I believe CACG's whole grade range excludes most "C" coins in the whole grade range of the other TPG's! JA has said otherwise, and HE was in charge of getting the senior graders at CACG on the same page!.

    Separately, unless the submitter to a failed coin to CAC stickering asked to have the reason for a failure provided (usually by a color coded sticker), how would you know if a failed coin is problem-free (in the opinion of CACG)?

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 5:17AM

    @winesteven said:

    @CascadeChris said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

    It is not reasonable to assume that every coin without a sticker has either of those. A good number of 65 CAC rejects have none of those.

    What has your experience been?

    That every coin should be judged on its own merits. You cannot develop a bright line rule based on an ambiguous opinion. The denial of a sticker can be because it is low end for the grade, that it is overgraded, or it could be a problem coin. We don’t know without seeing the coin.

    This is the point, well stated. It is also the reason that CAC refused to publish a list of coins that failed to CAC. People would then assume they were defective when they are, in fact, not necessarily problem coins. They could be problem-free "C" coins.

    From the CAC website FAQs:

    Q: Why can't I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?
    A: Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

    Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

    To touch on my comments in a previous thread that some balked at.. Your comment is why crossing a PC or NG coin to CACG that had been rejected for stickering at CAC is NOT an "automatic downgrade from say a 65 to 64/64+" as many assume/suggest since CACG uses the whole grade range while CAC Stickering only uses the top end of the range.

    Good luck! Regarding your implication that CACG is using the same whole grade range as the TPG's, I'm not convinced that CACG will cross most problem-free "C" coins at the same whole grade, as I believe CACG's whole grade range excludes most "C" coins in the whole grade range of the other TPG's! JA has said otherwise, and HE was in charge of getting the senior graders at CACG on the same page!.

    Separately, unless the submitter to a failed coin to CAC stickering asked to have the reason for a failure provided (usually by a color coded sticker), how would you know if a failed coin is problem-free (in the opinion of CACG)?

    Steve

    Of course there are variables. What I'm saying is that since CACG uses the whole grade range a submitter shouldn't assume an automatic downgrade on a crossover of a coin they previously sent to NJ that didn't sticker, or put another way that a previously sticker-rejected coin sent to CACG for crossover can never be crossed at the same grade. If the coin was solid for the grade with no surface issues and didn't sticker because it wasn't at the top part of the grade range for NJ then it is *possible for it to still cross at the same grade in VB because CACG uses the full grade range.

    The more you VAM..
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,703 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @124Spider said:

    Question: Am I correct in my understanding that a coin gets a CAC green sticker if it's in the top 2/3 of that grade? If so, that suggests that, randomly, a coin has a 2/3 chance of getting a green bean?

    There are hurdles before a coin earns a CAC.

    1. Does PVC exist?
    2. Are there surface treatments?

    If no to the above two,

    1. Is it overgraded; i.e., it should be a MS64+ (or lesser) instead of MS65?

    If no to all three tests, it will get a CAC. It's not a matter of 2/3s passing.

    Think of submitting to CAC as a learning experience.

    3 is NOT correct. A low end 65 will not get a CAC even though it is properly graded.

    A low end 65 is a 64+ and as you said, will not get a CAC. It will get a 64+ at CACG.

    A low end 65 is, by definition, a 65. Did you even read the FAQ I posted. CAC rejection does NOT mean the coin is overgraded... a stated directly by CAC.

    It just doesn't have a sticker.

    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Or even the identical coin, graded at different times by two different companies.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Your comment is why crossing a PC or NG coin to CACG that had been rejected for stickering at CAC is NOT an "automatic downgrade from say a 65 to 64/64+" as many assume/suggest"

    -- That's always a possibility; but, more likely an outliner where CAC and CACG ended up disagreeing

    "since CACG uses the whole grade range while CAC Stickering only uses the top end of the range."

    -- By referring to CACG's whole grade range are you referring to it's MS64+, MS65, & MS65+ ?

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 9:24AM

    Although I agree to never say "never" (or even close to that), i strongly disagree with your point that CAC stickering in NJ is using just the top part of the range in each grade. That is NOT true. Since CAC stickering uses the top and middle part of the TPG's grade range, AND JA trained the senior graders at CACG to try and be on the same page, I stick by my point and say, "Good luck" trying to cross failed coins at the same grade with CACG. Yes, you'll get a few, perhaps, but I'd be shocked if it were anywhere near 20% - 30%.

    Separately, unless the submitter of the failed CAC stickering coin requested the reason for the failure with their color coded stickers, you don't know if a coin failed due to being a problem coin or not.

    If you're correct, you can make a ton of money taking coins that don't merit CAC stickers and crossing them to CACG at the same grade as they are. Good luck!

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2024 10:56AM

    @DisneyFan said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @DisneyFan said:
    Some may prefer to have a MS65 coin without a sticker. Others may prefer to have an CACG MS64+. I'll take the CACG MS64+.

    It may very well be an identical quality coin.

    Not if:
    1. PVC exists
    2. There are surface treatments

    You mean like this lovely 1924 PCGS MS67+ CAC Saint?:
    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/48043114

  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I visited the dealer today, with 43 candidates for submission to CAC for approval. I chose the candidates entirely on the price guide (Greysheet retail) bump from no green bean to having a green bean, in that grade, so that the cost of doing this (grading fees plus postage and insurance) would be "recouped" (yes, I know it's not that simple, but it's a good proxy) with a small number of the coins being approved.

    Before going, I rated every one A, B or C, where I arbitrarily had "A" as being the top third of the grade; "B" as the middle third, and "C" as the bottom third. Yes, I know that this isn't exactly what CAC does, but it's the best I can do.

    Without showing him my list, we went through all 43 coins. I was gratified to see that he very much agreed with my grading, except he was tougher; but the correlation between his grades and mine was strong, which was nice to see.

    In the end, because apparently the insurance cost skyrockets when the value of an individual package exceeds $10,000, we agreed that I should send two packages in; one containing only two, very expensive coins, and the other containing nine less expensive (but still expensive by my standards) coins. The eleven coins included five that he was pretty optimistic about, a couple that he was pessimistic about, and perhaps four that he thought were borderline.

    It cost $674 for postage, insurance, grading fees and insurance, with perhaps a correction in the future after the grading. I am told that the turnaround time is weeks, not months.

    I'm pretty excited by the process. Time will tell, but it will be an interesting learning experience.

    I'll give a detailed report on the results when I have them.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $674 for postage, insurance and CAC fees? That seems really, really high.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm confused
    You started with 43 coins but only submitted 11 coins?
    1 package with 2 coins and another package with 9 coins, is that correct?
    And the fees added up to $674?
    I sure would like to know this way I can prepare myself in the future
    Thanks

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2024 9:43PM

    That's why I asked, as well. CAC fees are posted on their website below-

    https://www.cacgrading.com/pricing

    I assumed one package had two coins with a total value of $10,000 and, if so, the CAC fees for those two coins would be $68 per coin if they were both $5,000 coins. The CAC fees for the other nine coins would be the standard fee of $22 (for coins $3,000 and less) per coin, if I understand the OP. Therefore, the CAC fees should be approximately $334 for all 11-coins.

    That means the OP is paying about $340 for shipping and insurance. That seems wildly overpriced for shipping and insurance.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm always willing to submit for folks. I piggyback my own coins with theirs and it saves me a few bucks. Caveat; I typically use the Econ tier.

    I don't think it would come out to $674 to submit 11 with me either, unless they're $3000+ coins, then that sounds right. Hope that works out for you, OP!

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • SurfinxHISurfinxHI Posts: 2,323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The person is paying a mark up for using the dealers account and likely time.

    Dead people tell interesting tales.

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