My first "details" grade piece
BillJones
Posts: 33,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have avoided pieces in "details" grade slabs, but bought my first one this month. It is an 1837 Feuchtwanger "defiant eagle" three cent piece. PCGS called it "Unc. sharpness, details" because it has the "JMP" counterstamp on the reverse. That counterstamp is on about 15 or 16 examples of this variety. Overall, I suppose there are 50 to 60 examples known. It's rated as an R-5, 30 to 75 known.
Rulau gave it a separate variety number in his Hard Times token book. NGC straight graded one with it as an MS-64. I figured the piece would sell for less at auction because of the "details" mark on the slab, and I was right.
To me, it shows up enough times to make it a variation of the variety, not a damaged token, but some probably disagree. At any rate it was added not long after the piece was struck.
Who was "JMP"? No one knows. It's been lost to history to so far. Some people think that he may have been a silversmith, but why would a silversmith put his hallmark on a piece that contains no silver? Dr. Feuchtwanger called his composition "American silver." Most people call it "German silver."
Comments
Great pickup, Bill.
That counter stamp adds character, at least to me.
One of the very few of these I’ve seen in the wild in the past 15 years had a hole in it, and I was still tempted to buy it…. But the dealer decided he was going to try to get it “repaired” instead.
Cool piece Bill!
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I like it. The size and location of the CS is a plus IMHO
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Very nice. I'd have no problem adding that piece to my collection.
BTW, about a month ago I added my first intentional "Details" coin to my collection.
In my opinion, that should not have been graded "details." PCGS and NGC have no issue putting trade dollars hammered with chopmarks into straight graded holders. They also didn't have a problem giving my D. SKIDMORE civil war token a straight grade.
Counterstamps should not be considered damage! The coins and tokens are often collected for the counterstamp alone. And yours was artfully done.
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"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Interesting ...
That Skidmore token with the eagle holding the cigar usually comes in high grade, or least most of their examples I have seen are high grade, Do you know who "H. Frantz" was?
My impression of the Skidmore lounge was that it was a 19th version of "a man cave" with guys smoking cigars and reading the latest newspapers.
Yes, research has shown he was the proprietor after acquiring the hotel from Darius Skidmore. He must have continued to accept them
Counterstamps add history to these pieces. It is different than graffiti
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Great addition, Bill. As I have stated on this forum, many times, without my decision to accept details coins for what they are and not what they were, I would not enjoy them nearly as much as I do now. I can now own and view beautifully struck half cents in all varieties with readable dates, viewable attributes and beautiful color that I could have only drooled over without their individual detail issues. Unfortunately, I had not made this breakthrough acceptance with my large cent collection and most early dates barely readable, barely attributable and mixed colorings, but not details.
I'm glad the hobby feels this way toward details coins, as it makes it easier on me collecting them.
Again, beautiful token, Bill.
Jim
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Heck yeah! That is a nice piece with character! @BillJones As far as the counterstamp goes, wouldn't that be the same as chop marks? They were once considered "details" but, PCGS came around. I would like to acquire a 3 Cent Feuchtwanger but they are out of my slush fund zone.
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Very cool token and counter-stamp. It is a little difficult to see with great detail, but could the counter-stamp actually be JVP instead of JMP?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It could be interpreted as "JVP", but all of the observers I have read call it "JMP." The "J" is not easy to see. Rulau called it "MP" and listed it in his counterstamp section as HTT 461.
Minor point, but NGC doesn’t straight grade any chopmarked coins.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Please don't be too jealous, but I have completed the run for Feuchtwanger three cent tokens.
The New York State Seal variety is the most common.
The 1837 Eagle variety is the second most common.
Third piece is the 1864 eagle, which is listed as a Civil War token. The estimate in these is somewhere around 20 examples. This and the next piece were not issued for circulation but were only proposals for a three cent coinage.
And, here is the rarity, which frequently confused with the other 1837 dated token. The dies for this piece were made in the late 1850s or the 1860s, despite the the fact that it is dated "1837." The fancy word for this piece is "novodel", a piece made with dies that were sunk at a date later than what shows on the piece. The most famous novodel is the 1804 Dollar.
The population of this piece might be less than 10.
They straight graded this Feuchtwanger three cent MS-64 which had a counterstamp which is the same as the piece I have.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/hard-times-tokens/1837-3c-feuchtwanger-three-cent-eagle-ms64-ngc/a/1126-1865.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
Great token, Bill! Thanks for posting it!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
That’s a counterstamp, not a chopmark. Both services certify many types of counterstamps. Though of course anyone can make a counterstamp, so not all counterstamps will be straightgraded. But only PCGS straight grades chopmarks on Trade Dollars.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
A chopmark is still considered damage if it isn't on a Trade dollar. A counterstamp seems to be regarded as damage on all coins.
When it comes to rare coins better to own one in any grade vs never owning one. Congrats on a nice looking rare coin!!!
Partly correct.
The chopmarked Trade Dollars each have a separate PCGS Coin number, so they can be tracked separately from the unchopped.
The PCGS Price guide does not have separate prices for chopped and unchopped, but they could in theory do it.
The PCGS Population tables have them separate and also grouped together.
Super token!! Really nice collection you have!!
Love your three centers Bill. Here is my graded counterstamp:
Seems inconsistent to grade some counterstamps but not others..............
Here is my only token made by Mr. Feuchtwanger:
CAC only considers a few tokens and this is one of them......
Best, SH
PCGS is not the only one that straight grades chopmarked trade dollars, CACG does as well. Got this AU-55 1874-S from forum member @lermish. It's only got one chopmark and I wonder what the story behind it is.
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I feel far differently about a Trade dollar that has one or two chopmarks. Beyond that it strikes me as mutilation but that is just personal taste.
Awesome thread... Bill, thanks for sharing! I was thinking about a 1837 Feuchtwanger cent as part of my Box of 20 and I didn't know about this "variety" and that the counterstamp has been documented on other pieces.
Interesting about Trade Dollars and other pieces destined for commerce with foreign entities... my 8-R piece is a PCGS VF Details coin. I was hoping for a similar Trade Dollar for the Box...
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