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My first "details" grade piece

BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 29, 2023 10:13AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I have avoided pieces in "details" grade slabs, but bought my first one this month. It is an 1837 Feuchtwanger "defiant eagle" three cent piece. PCGS called it "Unc. sharpness, details" because it has the "JMP" counterstamp on the reverse. That counterstamp is on about 15 or 16 examples of this variety. Overall, I suppose there are 50 to 60 examples known. It's rated as an R-5, 30 to 75 known.

Rulau gave it a separate variety number in his Hard Times token book. NGC straight graded one with it as an MS-64. I figured the piece would sell for less at auction because of the "details" mark on the slab, and I was right.

To me, it shows up enough times to make it a variation of the variety, not a damaged token, but some probably disagree. At any rate it was added not long after the piece was struck.


Who was "JMP"? No one knows. It's been lost to history to so far. Some people think that he may have been a silversmith, but why would a silversmith put his hallmark on a piece that contains no silver? Dr. Feuchtwanger called his composition "American silver." Most people call it "German silver."

Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

Comments

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great pickup, Bill.
    That counter stamp adds character, at least to me.

    One of the very few of these I’ve seen in the wild in the past 15 years had a hole in it, and I was still tempted to buy it…. But the dealer decided he was going to try to get it “repaired” instead.

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  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it. The size and location of the CS is a plus IMHO

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  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice. I'd have no problem adding that piece to my collection.

    BTW, about a month ago I added my first intentional "Details" coin to my collection.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 10:17AM

    @DCW said:
    In my opinion, that should not have been graded "details." PCGS and NGC have no issue putting trade dollars hammered with chopmarks into straight graded holders. They also didn't have a problem giving my D. SKIDMORE civil war token a straight grade.

    Counterstamps should not be considered damage! The coins and tokens are often collected for the counterstamp alone. And yours was artfully done.

    Interesting ...

    That Skidmore token with the eagle holding the cigar usually comes in high grade, or least most of their examples I have seen are high grade, Do you know who "H. Frantz" was?

    My impression of the Skidmore lounge was that it was a 19th version of "a man cave" with guys smoking cigars and reading the latest newspapers.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting ...

    That Skidmore token with the eagle holding the cigar usually comes in high grade, or least most of their examples I have seen are high grade, Do you know who "H. Frantz" was?

    Yes, research has shown he was the proprietor after acquiring the hotel from Darius Skidmore. He must have continued to accept them
    Counterstamps add history to these pieces. It is different than graffiti

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,038 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great addition, Bill. As I have stated on this forum, many times, without my decision to accept details coins for what they are and not what they were, I would not enjoy them nearly as much as I do now. I can now own and view beautifully struck half cents in all varieties with readable dates, viewable attributes and beautiful color that I could have only drooled over without their individual detail issues. Unfortunately, I had not made this breakthrough acceptance with my large cent collection and most early dates barely readable, barely attributable and mixed colorings, but not details.
    I'm glad the hobby feels this way toward details coins, as it makes it easier on me collecting them. :D
    Again, beautiful token, Bill.
    Jim


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  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2023 10:30AM

    Heck yeah! That is a nice piece with character! @BillJones As far as the counterstamp goes, wouldn't that be the same as chop marks? They were once considered "details" but, PCGS came around. I would like to acquire a 3 Cent Feuchtwanger but they are out of my slush fund zone.

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  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool token and counter-stamp. It is a little difficult to see with great detail, but could the counter-stamp actually be JVP instead of JMP?

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    Very cool token and counter-stamp. It is a little difficult to see with great detail, but could the counter-stamp actually be JVP instead of JMP?

    It could be interpreted as "JVP", but all of the observers I have read call it "JMP." The "J" is not easy to see. Rulau called it "MP" and listed it in his counterstamp section as HTT 461.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:
    In my opinion, that should not have been graded "details." PCGS and NGC have no issue putting trade dollars hammered with chopmarks into straight graded holders. They also didn't have a problem giving my D. SKIDMORE civil war token a straight grade.

    Counterstamps should not be considered damage! The coins and tokens are often collected for the counterstamp alone. And yours was artfully done.

    Minor point, but NGC doesn’t straight grade any chopmarked coins.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:

    @DCW said:
    In my opinion, that should not have been graded "details." PCGS and NGC have no issue putting trade dollars hammered with chopmarks into straight graded holders. They also didn't have a problem giving my D. SKIDMORE civil war token a straight grade.

    Counterstamps should not be considered damage! The coins and tokens are often collected for the counterstamp alone. And yours was artfully done.

    Minor point, but NGC doesn’t straight grade any chopmarked coins.

    They straight graded this Feuchtwanger three cent MS-64 which had a counterstamp which is the same as the piece I have.

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/hard-times-tokens/1837-3c-feuchtwanger-three-cent-eagle-ms64-ngc/a/1126-1865.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,347 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great token, Bill! Thanks for posting it!

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • RexfordRexford Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    @Rexford said:

    @DCW said:
    In my opinion, that should not have been graded "details." PCGS and NGC have no issue putting trade dollars hammered with chopmarks into straight graded holders. They also didn't have a problem giving my D. SKIDMORE civil war token a straight grade.

    Counterstamps should not be considered damage! The coins and tokens are often collected for the counterstamp alone. And yours was artfully done.

    Minor point, but NGC doesn’t straight grade any chopmarked coins.

    They straight graded this Feuchtwanger three cent MS-64 which had a counterstamp which is the same as the piece I have.

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/hard-times-tokens/1837-3c-feuchtwanger-three-cent-eagle-ms64-ngc/a/1126-1865.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

    That’s a counterstamp, not a chopmark. Both services certify many types of counterstamps. Though of course anyone can make a counterstamp, so not all counterstamps will be straightgraded. But only PCGS straight grades chopmarks on Trade Dollars.

  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oih82w8 said:
    Heck yeah! That is a nice piece with character! @BillJones As far as the counterstamp goes, wouldn't that be the same as chop marks? They were once considered "details" but, PCGS came around. I would like to acquire a 3 Cent Feuchtwanger but they are out of my slush fund zone.

    A chopmark is still considered damage if it isn't on a Trade dollar. A counterstamp seems to be regarded as damage on all coins.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When it comes to rare coins better to own one in any grade vs never owning one. Congrats on a nice looking rare coin!!!

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  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,545 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:
    ... PCGS ... have no issue putting trade dollars hammered with chopmarks into straight graded holders.

    Partly correct.
    The chopmarked Trade Dollars each have a separate PCGS Coin number, so they can be tracked separately from the unchopped.
    The PCGS Price guide does not have separate prices for chopped and unchopped, but they could in theory do it.
    The PCGS Population tables have them separate and also grouped together.

  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,981 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Super token!! Really nice collection you have!!

  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love your three centers Bill. Here is my graded counterstamp:

    Seems inconsistent to grade some counterstamps but not others..............

    Here is my only token made by Mr. Feuchtwanger:

    CAC only considers a few tokens and this is one of them......

    Best, SH


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  • ElmerFusterpuckElmerFusterpuck Posts: 4,611 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS is not the only one that straight grades chopmarked trade dollars, CACG does as well. Got this AU-55 1874-S from forum member @lermish. It's only got one chopmark and I wonder what the story behind it is.


  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭

    I feel far differently about a Trade dollar that has one or two chopmarks. Beyond that it strikes me as mutilation but that is just personal taste.

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome thread... Bill, thanks for sharing! I was thinking about a 1837 Feuchtwanger cent as part of my Box of 20 and I didn't know about this "variety" and that the counterstamp has been documented on other pieces.

    Interesting about Trade Dollars and other pieces destined for commerce with foreign entities... my 8-R piece is a PCGS VF Details coin. I was hoping for a similar Trade Dollar for the Box...

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