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I would like to know if this 1793 large cent is real and was possibly varnished or is it a fake?

Answers

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2023 1:43PM

    Fake. The genuine 1793 cents do not have edge reeds like this one.
    [Edit:] I didn't notice the "vine" part on the left side of the edge photo.

  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭

    Doesn’t really matter if it is varnished or not, it’s a 100% counterfeit.

  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The trouble is, of course, that electrotypes become more difficult to distinguish after gold plating.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    Fake. The genuine 1793 cents do not have edge reeds like this one.

    Where do you see a reeded edge?

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,390 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2023 5:55AM

    @rhedden said:
    If I didn't know any better, I would swear I'm looking at a 1793 Sheldon-8 with Vine and Bars edge, which has been gold plated at some point in the past.

    I'm also leaning towards "real" I don't see anything that I obviously hate, although the plating will certainly affect the value.

    In fact I think we might have had a similar piece posted to this group a few years ago that later certified as real? (Edited) Yes, we did: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1087696/1793-flowing-hair-large-cent-real-or-fake/p1

  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @yosclimber said:
    Fake. The genuine 1793 cents do not have edge reeds like this one.

    Where do you see a reeded edge?

    Small image on top.
    I wonder if the reeding was added in an attempt to make a racketeer $10 piece?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,338 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2023 6:48AM

    @jayPem said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @yosclimber said:
    Fake. The genuine 1793 cents do not have edge reeds like this one.

    Where do you see a reeded edge?

    Small image on top.
    I wonder if the reeding was added in an attempt to make a racketeer $10 piece?

    Completely missed that photo. Thanks.

    It doesn't appear complete. Wouldn't that be vines and bars?

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2023 7:48AM

    @Rogue75 said:

    This piece does not have a reeded edge. It has a "vines and bars edge." You can see the vines on the left part of the top photo. This is the type of edge design that the coin should have if it's genuine. I would say that it is genuine with a layer of gold something.

    A "good coin doctor" and yes, there can be such a thing, might be able to make this piece much better. These coins are valuable now, even when they have problems.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,073 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes it’s a vine&bars edge, used for most of the wreath cents, until it was switched to the lettered edge.

    Here’s mine, prior to slabbing:
    Also, wasn’t a cent very similar to this posted awhile back, and determined to be genuine?

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  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,632 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My initial impression was fake... I've not seen one in such good state of preservation that has had the surfaces altered like that... gold paint??? I don't get how someone mistakes this for a $10 when "ONE CENT" and 1/100 is prominent on the reverse... I suppose it takes all types...

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  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,856 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought we had seen this coin before- many years ago- and it was determined to be genuine.

    peacockcoins

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,537 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2023 2:29PM

    @braddick said:
    I thought we had seen this coin before- many years ago- and it was determined to be genuine.

    Make that many months ago, or atleast several months (February):

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1087696/1793-flowing-hair-large-cent-real-or-fake/p1

    :)

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,856 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    @braddick said:
    I thought we had seen this coin before- many years ago- and it was determined to be genuine.

    Make that many months ago, or atleast several month (February):

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1087696/1793-flowing-hair-large-cent-real-or-fake/p1

    :)

    Thank you.
    It felt like a long time ago.
    Wow, 2023 has really dragged on, hasn't it?

    peacockcoins

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,073 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    @braddick said:
    I thought we had seen this coin before- many years ago- and it was determined to be genuine.

    Make that many months ago, or atleast several month (February):

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1087696/1793-flowing-hair-large-cent-real-or-fake/p1

    :)

    Oh good, I was worried my old age was coming in to play when I stated this with my post above: _ Also, wasn’t a cent very similar to this posted awhile back, and determined to be genuine?_

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  • I want to thank everybody for all your excellent input. I truly believe it’s real and just has some type of coating over it for some reason. It’s been passed down through generations of my family, so that’s why I tend to believe it is real. I’ve taken it to a local coin shop and also a Numismatist and both times were told that it was probably a fake. I just didn’t believe it. It was weighed and if I remember correctly it was right at 13g or a little bit over, but under the 13.48g.
    My other question would be if it is a real coin, doess anybody know the ballpark on value of a coin like this because the details and condition are pretty excellent on this coin, but I do understand that the coated surface probably hurts its value.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Did you try to soak it in acetone to see if the coating comes off assuming it's some kind of paint rather than gold plating?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,390 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rogue75
    My other question would be if it is a real coin, doess anybody know the ballpark on value of a coin like this because the details and condition are pretty excellent on this coin, but I do understand that the coated surface probably hurts its value.

    Based on past sales at ha.com I'd guesstimate on the order of $1000, plus or minus a lot. It hard to say what the gold plating (or whatever) would do to the value. The details and condition are nowhere near excellent. They're not awful, but could certainly be a lot better even ignoring the plating.

  • sellitstoresellitstore Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2023 3:21PM

    @Rogue75 said:
    I want to thank everybody for all your excellent input. I truly believe it’s real and just has some type of coating over it for some reason. It’s been passed down through generations of my family, so that’s why I tend to believe it is real. I’ve taken it to a local coin shop and also a Numismatist and both times were told that it was probably a fake. I just didn’t believe it. It was weighed and if I remember correctly it was right at 13g or a little bit over, but under the 13.48g.
    My other question would be if it is a real coin, doess anybody know the ballpark on value of a coin like this because the details and condition are pretty excellent on this coin, but I do understand that the coated surface probably hurts its value.

    My guess is that it's a high four figure and possibly low five figure coin. Admittedly, that's a pretty big ballpark but probably accurate. I'm betting that someone could remove the gold stuff and leave a pretty nice coin behind.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,073 ✭✭✭✭✭

    W/o the surface issues, probably a $10k coin. As-is, and confirmed genuine, maybe $2k.
    Depending on the success of the restoration, somewhere in between.

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  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 671 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is super cool that the coin is an heirloom! I hope you find value in that alone and continue to pass it down. Upon light inspection, I do not see any red flags.

    Maybe the coin has been dipped and started to tone brown on the high points?

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • TrampTramp Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd like to have this problem. Nice coin!

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  • Again, I appreciate everybody’s helpful insight. This is actually my very first post in this forum and most everybody here has been a class act, so thank you. I was wondering what my next move should be, should I try to clean it myself or should I send it off for validation, grading and restoration? I know most people seem to use the PCGS service. I’m new to this so any additional advice would be so much appreciated.




  • I tried to take more photos of the coin faces and edges again for anyone that may want to see it in a different light.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I suggest sending it to one of the major grading services to at least verify that it's authentic. Even in a details slab, that coin is well worth the expense of submitting it.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,537 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2023 3:06AM

    Is the coin really that gold looking in person? If you check out the other thread referenced, someone else had one with sort of a similar look.

    Do not clean it yourself. If you think it is only lacquer then I'd pay PCGS, for example, to conserve it. Either way, submitting it will confirm authenticity and then later on you could always crack it out if further restoration was warranted.

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks like old gold paint on it. Non-abrasive paint remover might do the trick.

  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would try a nice soak in acetone.

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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    I would try a nice soak in acetone.

    Agree. If it is paint or lacquer, acetone should take it off and possibly expose original red surfaces depending on how soon after it was minted when the coating was applied.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Or, shocking idea, maybe just leave it as is?
    It appears to have been altered a long time ago. If so, and it was mine, it'd stay just exactly like that.
    What people did with their coins back in the day is often more interesting than the coin itself ( and occasionally worth more as well...)

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