@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Imagine a scenario where the (approx.) 32,258 cards that PSA graded each day are all fakes. Some high end cards, some commons, some TCGs, a few jumbos, some bulk subs and all the items are bogus.
>
Why on earth would anyone bother to imagine this? It's a ridiculous scenario that would never happen. Instead, let's imagine every card submitted is a fake high dollar card. People do NOT create fake commons.
PSA then gets to charge $5,000.00 per card to reject every card submitted. Once the card is determined to be fake, they don't have to bother inspecting it for flaws, or encapsulate it. Just return to customer without explaining why there's a problem and charging them $5,000.00. PSA would absolutely LOVE that!
Let's stick with reality and not make up wildly impossible scenarios.
>
>
Is PSA just supposed to skip the revenue it would have generated that day? What about the work performed by everyone from receiving to imaging to handling, to submission ordering, to re-organizing to the grader who deems the card ‘Not Authentic’ - they didn’t work, do their jobs and perform the exact service as they would otherwise?
>
NO ONE is saying this!
>
>
By the way, and it seems I’m in the minority here, but I feel like ‘Authentication’ is about 100 times more important than the grade it receives and is being taken for granted. I mean, I t’s called PSA, not PSG, for a reason.
>
There's a good reason you are in the minority here. Since a card has to be authentic to receive a grade, yes authenticity is important, but people are not paying good money for PSA "Authentic" cards, they are paying for HIGH GRADE authentic cards!
>
>
Who gives a frog’s fat ass what the grade is on a fake card? So if they said the card is fake, but to be clear it’s a NM 7 fake, would that somehow make it worth the $5,000 fee when it is still returned to the customer unholdered?
>
Your post becomes more bizarre as it goes on. Fake cards do not get a grade. NOTHING justifies charging $5,000.00 to not grade a card.
>
>
Lastly, and I put this here for the general public who may read this:
It is financially prudent to believe that you are not submitting a ‘10’ when the grade is, simply put, incredibly difficult to achieve. Most reasonable people would suggest that you submit high end cards at the value of the card at the Near Mint level if you believe you will achieve that grade or higher.
>
"Financially prudent" another phrase for lying about what you card is worth and hoping for an upcharge?
Ridiculous, we're not the professional card grader, they are. Every card should be automatically submitted at a maximum of a PSA 7-8 value. Your odds at getting a 10 are about 3%? How many cards even get a 9? How many people are buying modern 9's at over the cost of grading?
>
>
This is why the upcharge policy exists - to protect both the customer and PSA. It is the ‘fairness’ people are seeking and it is why I recommend to everyone that they educate themselves and really study the boards and the system that is in place before you ever submit to a third party grader. And even then, start small and go from there. Or better still, for a novice, submit through a group! A good group leader might have caught it before it ever headed to Newport Beach.
>
>
The upcharge policy exists for one thing and one thing only, for PSA to make more money for doing the same exact thing. It's no harder to grade a 52 Mantle than to grade a 72 Aaron.
Now you will probably say that PSA could get burned if they grade a card that's a fake and it gets proven they were wrong. Why should the customer have to pay for this? If PSA screws up, they should carry insurance to cover their mistakes. I wonder how often they have to pay out because of this? Not very often, I am guessing. Yet they charge extra for every single card that's over a certain dollar amount.
Additionally, unless I am mistaken, if you sent a card in for a review and the grade changes, you have to pay two times (or more) to get the card correctly graded, so your paying for their mistakes.
No one forced PSA to go into business just as no one is forced to use their service.
When a customer makes an honest mistake, charging an outrageous amount is bad business. Charge $100.00 or even $200.00 to cover your costs.
$5,000.00.
No.
There is so much information available out there for the public to use to determine if a 1986 Fleer MJ is potentially fake. There are multiple forums out there where someone can post a picture and get a dozen replies within a day. There are multiple social media sites out there where one can post an 86 Fleer Jordan and get a dozen replies within a few hours. Yes, some replies will be good and others not so much. Unfortunately, because someone wants to believe what they have is real, they tend to believe the "send it to PSA" crowd and worse "they wont charge you if its fake" crowd. What PSA is doing is not bad business, they are simply protecting it. They did a job and expect to get paid for it. There were terms and conditions that the submitter agreed too. Being that the submitter was a business itself, they should know to read those.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Imagine a scenario where the (approx.) 32,258 cards that PSA graded each day are all fakes. Some high end cards, some commons, some TCGs, a few jumbos, some bulk subs and all the items are bogus.
>
Why on earth would anyone bother to imagine this? It's a ridiculous scenario that would never happen. Instead, let's imagine every card submitted is a fake high dollar card. People do NOT create fake commons.
PSA then gets to charge $5,000.00 per card to reject every card submitted. Once the card is determined to be fake, they don't have to bother inspecting it for flaws, or encapsulate it. Just return to customer without explaining why there's a problem and charging them $5,000.00. PSA would absolutely LOVE that!
Let's stick with reality and not make up wildly impossible scenarios.
>
>
Is PSA just supposed to skip the revenue it would have generated that day? What about the work performed by everyone from receiving to imaging to handling, to submission ordering, to re-organizing to the grader who deems the card ‘Not Authentic’ - they didn’t work, do their jobs and perform the exact service as they would otherwise?
>
NO ONE is saying this!
>
>
By the way, and it seems I’m in the minority here, but I feel like ‘Authentication’ is about 100 times more important than the grade it receives and is being taken for granted. I mean, I t’s called PSA, not PSG, for a reason.
>
There's a good reason you are in the minority here. Since a card has to be authentic to receive a grade, yes authenticity is important, but people are not paying good money for PSA "Authentic" cards, they are paying for HIGH GRADE authentic cards!
>
>
Who gives a frog’s fat ass what the grade is on a fake card? So if they said the card is fake, but to be clear it’s a NM 7 fake, would that somehow make it worth the $5,000 fee when it is still returned to the customer unholdered?
>
Your post becomes more bizarre as it goes on. Fake cards do not get a grade. NOTHING justifies charging $5,000.00 to not grade a card.
>
>
Lastly, and I put this here for the general public who may read this:
It is financially prudent to believe that you are not submitting a ‘10’ when the grade is, simply put, incredibly difficult to achieve. Most reasonable people would suggest that you submit high end cards at the value of the card at the Near Mint level if you believe you will achieve that grade or higher.
>
"Financially prudent" another phrase for lying about what you card is worth and hoping for an upcharge?
Ridiculous, we're not the professional card grader, they are. Every card should be automatically submitted at a maximum of a PSA 7-8 value. Your odds at getting a 10 are about 3%? How many cards even get a 9? How many people are buying modern 9's at over the cost of grading?
>
>
This is why the upcharge policy exists - to protect both the customer and PSA. It is the ‘fairness’ people are seeking and it is why I recommend to everyone that they educate themselves and really study the boards and the system that is in place before you ever submit to a third party grader. And even then, start small and go from there. Or better still, for a novice, submit through a group! A good group leader might have caught it before it ever headed to Newport Beach.
>
>
The upcharge policy exists for one thing and one thing only, for PSA to make more money for doing the same exact thing. It's no harder to grade a 52 Mantle than to grade a 72 Aaron.
Now you will probably say that PSA could get burned if they grade a card that's a fake and it gets proven they were wrong. Why should the customer have to pay for this? If PSA screws up, they should carry insurance to cover their mistakes. I wonder how often they have to pay out because of this? Not very often, I am guessing. Yet they charge extra for every single card that's over a certain dollar amount.
Additionally, unless I am mistaken, if you sent a card in for a review and the grade changes, you have to pay two times (or more) to get the card correctly graded, so your paying for their mistakes.
No one forced PSA to go into business just as no one is forced to use their service.
When a customer makes an honest mistake, charging an outrageous amount is bad business. Charge $100.00 or even $200.00 to cover your costs.
$5,000.00.
No.
A quick perusal of the Auction Prices Revealed link gave me the following:
1) PSA’s APR page shows several sales for the card in PSA 10 in 2023. The high sale is $192,000 and the low is $150,000. The appropriate service level is Premium 5 at a cost of $5000 (3 days) for cards valued up to $249,000.
2) In that same time frame, PSA 7’s sold in a range of about $4100 to $6100. The appropriate service level is Super Express (3 days) and the cost is $300 plus shipping for cards valued up to $4,999.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
A quick perusal of the Auction Prices Revealed link gave me the following:
1) PSA’s APR page shows several sales for the card in PSA 10 in 2023. The high sale is $192,000 and the low is $150,000. The appropriate service level is Premium 5 at a cost of $5000 (3 days) for cards valued up to $249,000.
2) In that same time frame, PSA 7’s sold in a range of about $4100 to $6100. The appropriate service level is Super Express (3 days) and the cost is $300 plus shipping for cards valued up to $4,999.
Thanks for posting this information.
I think $300.00 would be fair.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Imagine a scenario where the (approx.) 32,258 cards that PSA graded each day are all fakes. Some high end cards, some commons, some TCGs, a few jumbos, some bulk subs and all the items are bogus.
Is PSA just supposed to skip the revenue it would have generated that day? What about the work performed by everyone from receiving to imaging to handling, to submission ordering, to re-organizing to the grader who deems the card ‘Not Authentic’ - they didn’t work, do their jobs and perform the exact service as they would otherwise?
By the way, and it seems I’m in the minority here, but I feel like ‘Authentication’ is about 100 times more important than the grade it receives and is being taken for granted. I mean, I t’s called PSA, not PSG, for a reason.
Who gives a frog’s fat ass what the grade is on a fake card? So if they said the card is fake, but to be clear it’s a NM 7 fake, would that somehow make it worth the $5,000 fee when it is still returned to the customer unholdered?
Lastly, and I put this here for the general public who may read this:
It is financially prudent to believe that you are not submitting a ‘10’ when the grade is, simply put, incredibly difficult to achieve. Most reasonable people would suggest that you submit high end cards at the value of the card at the Near Mint level if you believe you will achieve that grade or higher.
This is why the upcharge policy exists - to protect both the customer and PSA. It is the ‘fairness’ people are seeking and it is why I recommend to everyone that they educate themselves and really study the boards and the system that is in place before you ever submit to a third party grader. And even then, start small and go from there. Or better still, for a novice, submit through a group! A good group leader might have caught it before it ever headed to Newport Beach.
Well stated.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Beautiful woman will give you a subject matter expert opinion on how attractive you are for $5000.
-Excuse me. Yes, me. I am interested.
-Will that be cash or credit?
-Cash.
-You are hideously ugly. I am having trouble keeping my lunch down looking at you. I think in the dark I would still find you ugly. I would be surprised if any woman in the state found you attractive. You have a face that could melt glass and your body is nothing special either. With a suitcase of cash and a bottle of bourbon I would still not spend an evening with you. Seeing your face has ruined my life forever. Okay, that's it. Your evaluation is complete.
@UlyssesExtravaganza said:
Beautiful woman will give you a subject matter expert opinion on how attractive you are for $5000.
-Excuse me. Yes, me. I am interested.
-Will that be cash or credit?
-Cash.
-You are hideously ugly. I am having trouble keeping my lunch down looking at you. I think in the dark I would still find you ugly. I would be surprised if any woman in the state found you attractive. You have a face that could melt glass and your body is nothing special either. With a suitcase of cash and a bottle of bourbon I would still not spend an evening with you. Seeing your face has ruined my life forever. Okay, that's it. Your evaluation is complete.
-I want my money back.
…are you saying a better educated customer could have been deemed ugly for $300 if they read the terms and conditions first?
😁
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
After spending about 90 seconds reading google results on the CL poster's name and pawn shop, it's clear to me that the folks at PSA are merely pawns in the cosmic forces finally aligning. It can often take a long time, but karma is still undefeated my friends.
…are you saying a better educated customer could have been deemed ugly for $300 if they read the terms and conditions first?
😁
I think I would have paid $40 for the bad news. But think that is it, a better educated customer. A lot of comps being made to other situations where if you go in clueless you get your nose taken off. You have to know how many fakes of this card there were and are floating around. If you are playing in this space you should know. Anybody with a color printer and the right cardboard stock could have had a 1986 Fleer Jordan that is well-centered with sharp corners. Then the 5K level? Really? Its absolutely not a 10. If its a 9, it feels like a lucky day gift. It may deserve an 8 but feels like a grade you would be very excited about with that card. Could see a 7. Who spends 5K for that if they understand the value of the cards? I cant tell if the guy just does not now how to take a clear complaint picture. But it kind of looks grainy and faded and not as clear even if part of it is not being able to take a picture in focus. There is some chipping on the left edge which makes it seem more legitimate but also not one of the finer examples. Chipping on the edges, 68/32 top to bottom centering. If it was in a 7 holder I'd like it. But as an 8 I'd probably feel it was not special and look elsewhere if an 8 was a target. I think there may also be some disappointment because the submitter may have felt there was some wink wink I'll pay the 5K fee and look at the grade I get as a big spender thing going on.
I mean PSA should answer the phone and make it easier to be contacted but noone wants to be contacted these days. Except SGC who wants to steal their customers. 🤣 But you know maybe there should be a special I spent 5K and got my face taken off line. Maybe a special line for a guy who paid $30 for some Starting Lineup figures and a Jordan basketball card who thought he was the shrewdest guy out there. Then they could say sorry, I mean seriously, sorry, it sucks to be you. It really does. We appreciate that. I hope tomorrow is better. But legally yeah, we performed the service we were paid for. We spent more time figuring out that yours was a piece of junk than the guys whose was real and was a 9. We will give you 90 seconds to speak and if you dont curse we wont hang up. We will answer two questions and then end the call. You aren't getting your money back. You just made a bad bad bad decision.
I've mentioned this before but tailoring it to this thread. To authenticate a card yourself like this one, you wouldn't necessarily need an expensive Michael Jordan card for comparison. Say you've got a potential PSA 9 Jordan. Well before blowing all that money sending it to PSA and it's a fake, learn how to spot a fake.
Buy a PSA 9 common of the same year, even an 8 or 7, or even a nice 6 would do. And study the yell out of that card. Look at it under magnification, look at every single aspect about it. Compare the card you intend on submitting to the authentic cards. Go ballistic if you have to with a black light to spot doctoring, and other methods. Feel the possible differences between the cards. You could buy a micrometer to measure the cardboard thickness if need be.
I'm not going to do a dissertation here about card authentication. There are many articles about that available on the internet. And right here with informative CU threads. Information is power, and information can and will not only save you money, but make you money. And help prevent yourself from making 5k mistakes, and even more money from buying worthless counterfeit cards.
But go ahead, be lazy, and play the blame game that some big bad corporation screwed you or whatever. When in reality it was ignorance that did it. Frankly if you're not willing to put in the time to learn, then you've got no business trying to buy and sell trading cards for a profit, or any other collectible for that matter. Yea, you could get lucky, but remember that luck favors the prepared.
@UlyssesExtravaganza said:
Beautiful woman will give you a subject matter expert opinion on how attractive you are for $5000.
-Excuse me. Yes, me. I am interested.
-Will that be cash or credit?
-Cash.
-You are hideously ugly. I am having trouble keeping my lunch down looking at you. I think in the dark I would still find you ugly. I would be surprised if any woman in the state found you attractive. You have a face that could melt glass and your body is nothing special either. With a suitcase of cash and a bottle of bourbon I would still not spend an evening with you. Seeing your face has ruined my life forever. Okay, that's it. Your evaluation is complete.
-I want my money back.
Dude, in this current climate the best I'd hope for is a 7, but I'm sure it would come back as a 4 or 5!
Not the magnitude or price in question as the posters example. Many,many years ago I worked as a helper with a TV repair service. We did service calls, if you can imagine that. This was at a time TV sets still had dials to change the channel. Got a call from a senior lady. Could not get her Public TV channel. We arrive and noticed she had not turned the dial to activate the UHF option allowing Public TV to air. My boss did not have the heart to charge the lady a charge of any sort. This despite the travel time, time away from another call, and delaying service to other full paying customers. One could say it was on her to familiarize herself with the instructions of the working of the TV set and not our responsibility. We showed her how to get the channel. And needless to say thereafter we had a paying customer for life and she provided many great paying customers through her references. The moral of the story is up to your interpretation.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
I'd be very curious to know how this plays out at the live expos. Person brings 5 cards in and 1 is a fake. Do they take their money for all 5 or is there a discount for the fake one? I'm sure this has happened to somebody before.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Imagine a scenario where the (approx.) 32,258 cards that PSA graded each day are all fakes. Some high end cards, some commons, some TCGs, a few jumbos, some bulk subs and all the items are bogus.
>
Why on earth would anyone bother to imagine this? It's a ridiculous scenario that would never happen. Instead, let's imagine every card submitted is a fake high dollar card. People do NOT create fake commons.
PSA then gets to charge $5,000.00 per card to reject every card submitted. Once the card is determined to be fake, they don't have to bother inspecting it for flaws, or encapsulate it. Just return to customer without explaining why there's a problem and charging them $5,000.00. PSA would absolutely LOVE that!
Let's stick with reality and not make up wildly impossible scenarios.
>
>
Is PSA just supposed to skip the revenue it would have generated that day? What about the work performed by everyone from receiving to imaging to handling, to submission ordering, to re-organizing to the grader who deems the card ‘Not Authentic’ - they didn’t work, do their jobs and perform the exact service as they would otherwise?
>
NO ONE is saying this!
>
>
By the way, and it seems I’m in the minority here, but I feel like ‘Authentication’ is about 100 times more important than the grade it receives and is being taken for granted. I mean, I t’s called PSA, not PSG, for a reason.
>
There's a good reason you are in the minority here. Since a card has to be authentic to receive a grade, yes authenticity is important, but people are not paying good money for PSA "Authentic" cards, they are paying for HIGH GRADE authentic cards!
>
>
Who gives a frog’s fat ass what the grade is on a fake card? So if they said the card is fake, but to be clear it’s a NM 7 fake, would that somehow make it worth the $5,000 fee when it is still returned to the customer unholdered?
>
Your post becomes more bizarre as it goes on. Fake cards do not get a grade. NOTHING justifies charging $5,000.00 to not grade a card.
>
>
Lastly, and I put this here for the general public who may read this:
It is financially prudent to believe that you are not submitting a ‘10’ when the grade is, simply put, incredibly difficult to achieve. Most reasonable people would suggest that you submit high end cards at the value of the card at the Near Mint level if you believe you will achieve that grade or higher.
>
"Financially prudent" another phrase for lying about what you card is worth and hoping for an upcharge?
Ridiculous, we're not the professional card grader, they are. Every card should be automatically submitted at a maximum of a PSA 7-8 value. Your odds at getting a 10 are about 3%? How many cards even get a 9? How many people are buying modern 9's at over the cost of grading?
>
>
This is why the upcharge policy exists - to protect both the customer and PSA. It is the ‘fairness’ people are seeking and it is why I recommend to everyone that they educate themselves and really study the boards and the system that is in place before you ever submit to a third party grader. And even then, start small and go from there. Or better still, for a novice, submit through a group! A good group leader might have caught it before it ever headed to Newport Beach.
>
>
The upcharge policy exists for one thing and one thing only, for PSA to make more money for doing the same exact thing. It's no harder to grade a 52 Mantle than to grade a 72 Aaron.
Now you will probably say that PSA could get burned if they grade a card that's a fake and it gets proven they were wrong. Why should the customer have to pay for this? If PSA screws up, they should carry insurance to cover their mistakes. I wonder how often they have to pay out because of this? Not very often, I am guessing. Yet they charge extra for every single card that's over a certain dollar amount.
Additionally, unless I am mistaken, if you sent a card in for a review and the grade changes, you have to pay two times (or more) to get the card correctly graded, so your paying for their mistakes.
No one forced PSA to go into business just as no one is forced to use their service.
When a customer makes an honest mistake, charging an outrageous amount is bad business. Charge $100.00 or even $200.00 to cover your costs.
$5,000.00.
No.
this right here. I couldnt have said it better. The great bulk of the $5k is the guarantee, not the physical work/time involved in authenticating/grading/encapsulating.
@PatriotTrading said:
There is so much information available out there for the public to use to determine if a 1986 Fleer MJ is potentially fake. There are multiple forums out there where someone can post a picture and get a dozen replies within a day. There are multiple social media sites out there where one can post an 86 Fleer Jordan and get a dozen replies within a few hours. Yes, some replies will be good and others not so much. Unfortunately, because someone wants to believe what they have is real, they tend to believe the "send it to PSA" crowd and worse "they wont charge you if its fake" crowd. What PSA is doing is not bad business, they are simply protecting it. They did a job and expect to get paid for it. There were terms and conditions that the submitter agreed too. Being that the submitter was a business itself, they should know to read those.
they actually did half a job. they did the authentication part, they did not grade, encapsulate or guarantee the card.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Imagine a scenario where the (approx.) 32,258 cards that PSA graded each day are all fakes. Some high end cards, some commons, some TCGs, a few jumbos, some bulk subs and all the items are bogus.
>
Why on earth would anyone bother to imagine this? It's a ridiculous scenario that would never happen. Instead, let's imagine every card submitted is a fake high dollar card. People do NOT create fake commons.
PSA then gets to charge $5,000.00 per card to reject every card submitted. Once the card is determined to be fake, they don't have to bother inspecting it for flaws, or encapsulate it. Just return to customer without explaining why there's a problem and charging them $5,000.00. PSA would absolutely LOVE that!
Let's stick with reality and not make up wildly impossible scenarios.
>
>
Is PSA just supposed to skip the revenue it would have generated that day? What about the work performed by everyone from receiving to imaging to handling, to submission ordering, to re-organizing to the grader who deems the card ‘Not Authentic’ - they didn’t work, do their jobs and perform the exact service as they would otherwise?
>
NO ONE is saying this!
>
>
By the way, and it seems I’m in the minority here, but I feel like ‘Authentication’ is about 100 times more important than the grade it receives and is being taken for granted. I mean, I t’s called PSA, not PSG, for a reason.
>
There's a good reason you are in the minority here. Since a card has to be authentic to receive a grade, yes authenticity is important, but people are not paying good money for PSA "Authentic" cards, they are paying for HIGH GRADE authentic cards!
>
>
Who gives a frog’s fat ass what the grade is on a fake card? So if they said the card is fake, but to be clear it’s a NM 7 fake, would that somehow make it worth the $5,000 fee when it is still returned to the customer unholdered?
>
Your post becomes more bizarre as it goes on. Fake cards do not get a grade. NOTHING justifies charging $5,000.00 to not grade a card.
>
>
Lastly, and I put this here for the general public who may read this:
It is financially prudent to believe that you are not submitting a ‘10’ when the grade is, simply put, incredibly difficult to achieve. Most reasonable people would suggest that you submit high end cards at the value of the card at the Near Mint level if you believe you will achieve that grade or higher.
>
"Financially prudent" another phrase for lying about what you card is worth and hoping for an upcharge?
Ridiculous, we're not the professional card grader, they are. Every card should be automatically submitted at a maximum of a PSA 7-8 value. Your odds at getting a 10 are about 3%? How many cards even get a 9? How many people are buying modern 9's at over the cost of grading?
>
>
This is why the upcharge policy exists - to protect both the customer and PSA. It is the ‘fairness’ people are seeking and it is why I recommend to everyone that they educate themselves and really study the boards and the system that is in place before you ever submit to a third party grader. And even then, start small and go from there. Or better still, for a novice, submit through a group! A good group leader might have caught it before it ever headed to Newport Beach.
>
>
The upcharge policy exists for one thing and one thing only, for PSA to make more money for doing the same exact thing. It's no harder to grade a 52 Mantle than to grade a 72 Aaron.
Now you will probably say that PSA could get burned if they grade a card that's a fake and it gets proven they were wrong. Why should the customer have to pay for this? If PSA screws up, they should carry insurance to cover their mistakes. I wonder how often they have to pay out because of this? Not very often, I am guessing. Yet they charge extra for every single card that's over a certain dollar amount.
Additionally, unless I am mistaken, if you sent a card in for a review and the grade changes, you have to pay two times (or more) to get the card correctly graded, so your paying for their mistakes.
No one forced PSA to go into business just as no one is forced to use their service.
When a customer makes an honest mistake, charging an outrageous amount is bad business. Charge $100.00 or even $200.00 to cover your costs.
$5,000.00.
No.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Imagine a scenario where the (approx.) 32,258 cards that PSA graded each day are all fakes. Some high end cards, some commons, some TCGs, a few jumbos, some bulk subs and all the items are bogus.
>
Why on earth would anyone bother to imagine this? It's a ridiculous scenario that would never happen. Instead, let's imagine every card submitted is a fake high dollar card. People do NOT create fake commons.
PSA then gets to charge $5,000.00 per card to reject every card submitted. Once the card is determined to be fake, they don't have to bother inspecting it for flaws, or encapsulate it. Just return to customer without explaining why there's a problem and charging them $5,000.00. PSA would absolutely LOVE that!
Let's stick with reality and not make up wildly impossible scenarios.
>
>
Is PSA just supposed to skip the revenue it would have generated that day? What about the work performed by everyone from receiving to imaging to handling, to submission ordering, to re-organizing to the grader who deems the card ‘Not Authentic’ - they didn’t work, do their jobs and perform the exact service as they would otherwise?
>
NO ONE is saying this!
>
>
By the way, and it seems I’m in the minority here, but I feel like ‘Authentication’ is about 100 times more important than the grade it receives and is being taken for granted. I mean, I t’s called PSA, not PSG, for a reason.
>
There's a good reason you are in the minority here. Since a card has to be authentic to receive a grade, yes authenticity is important, but people are not paying good money for PSA "Authentic" cards, they are paying for HIGH GRADE authentic cards!
>
>
Who gives a frog’s fat ass what the grade is on a fake card? So if they said the card is fake, but to be clear it’s a NM 7 fake, would that somehow make it worth the $5,000 fee when it is still returned to the customer unholdered?
>
Your post becomes more bizarre as it goes on. Fake cards do not get a grade. NOTHING justifies charging $5,000.00 to not grade a card.
>
>
Lastly, and I put this here for the general public who may read this:
It is financially prudent to believe that you are not submitting a ‘10’ when the grade is, simply put, incredibly difficult to achieve. Most reasonable people would suggest that you submit high end cards at the value of the card at the Near Mint level if you believe you will achieve that grade or higher.
>
"Financially prudent" another phrase for lying about what you card is worth and hoping for an upcharge?
Ridiculous, we're not the professional card grader, they are. Every card should be automatically submitted at a maximum of a PSA 7-8 value. Your odds at getting a 10 are about 3%? How many cards even get a 9? How many people are buying modern 9's at over the cost of grading?
>
>
This is why the upcharge policy exists - to protect both the customer and PSA. It is the ‘fairness’ people are seeking and it is why I recommend to everyone that they educate themselves and really study the boards and the system that is in place before you ever submit to a third party grader. And even then, start small and go from there. Or better still, for a novice, submit through a group! A good group leader might have caught it before it ever headed to Newport Beach.
>
>
The upcharge policy exists for one thing and one thing only, for PSA to make more money for doing the same exact thing. It's no harder to grade a 52 Mantle than to grade a 72 Aaron.
Now you will probably say that PSA could get burned if they grade a card that's a fake and it gets proven they were wrong. Why should the customer have to pay for this? If PSA screws up, they should carry insurance to cover their mistakes. I wonder how often they have to pay out because of this? Not very often, I am guessing. Yet they charge extra for every single card that's over a certain dollar amount.
Additionally, unless I am mistaken, if you sent a card in for a review and the grade changes, you have to pay two times (or more) to get the card correctly graded, so your paying for their mistakes.
No one forced PSA to go into business just as no one is forced to use their service.
When a customer makes an honest mistake, charging an outrageous amount is bad business. Charge $100.00 or even $200.00 to cover your costs.
$5,000.00.
No.
Interesting to read this thread. I have a Mantle 1960. Looks great to me. Hopefully an 8. But I am learning I should submit at maybe a 6 or lower and should never submit it at an 8 level, no matter how good that I think it looks. ($5,000 in value vs less than $1,000 in value, or a $300 fee vs a $75 fee). If they think it is an 8 will they will grade with integrity and give the 8? Or will they give me a lesser grade because I submitted it at a 6 and PSA will say, so be it - you get a 6?
Looking for comments from people who have been charged more because your card was deemed to be submitted at the wrong level. Sounds like it is good to submit all cards at a few grades below what I hope to get, and hope for as many upcharges as possible. Then PSA can get paid more for specific cards, if they give higher grades for the few cards in a submission that they grade at my desired level.
Is there PSA backlash if this is the regular approach to submissions, resulting in lets say 10% of submitted cards, being deemed to be undersubmitted.
@rbmn said:
Interesting to read this thread. I have a Mantle 1960. Looks great to me. Hopefully an 8. But I am learning I should submit at maybe a 6 or lower and should never submit it at an 8 level, no matter how good that I think it looks. ($5,000 in value vs less than $1,000 in value, or a $300 fee vs a $75 fee). If they think it is an 8 will they will grade with integrity and give the 8? Or will they give me a lesser grade because I submitted it at a 6 and PSA will say, so be it - you get a 6?
Looking for comments from people who have been charged more because your card was deemed to be submitted at the wrong level. Sounds like it is good to submit all cards at a few grades below what I hope to get, and hope for as many upcharges as possible. Then PSA can get paid more for specific cards, if they give higher grades for the few cards in a submission that they grade at my desired level.
Is there PSA backlash if this is the regular approach to submissions, resulting in lets say 10% of submitted cards, being deemed to be undersubmitted.
Well, I collect Mickey and have received a few upcharges over the years so I hope I can help offfer some insight. And I agree posting photos will help provide further clarity.
So, I would recommend to someone who never submitted before to FIRST ask around at a show, a shop, on here and elsewhere for a ton of grade opinions and then submit that card (which is sight unseen at the moment but just giving you credit for an estimation on your personal 8 assessment and value) at either the Regular-10 day-$75 service level with a value up to $1499 (which easily covers a APR PSA 6 value) or at the Express-$150-3 Day level with a value of up to $2500 (slightly under APR PSA 7 value).
In the current climate, I’d personally do Express and if I got an 8 (or better) I’d expect to get an upcharge. And I say this based on my own experience and what I’ve learned, which is considerable, from the posters here.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
They subbed at a Premium 5 level based on WHAT available info they had available to them that justified using that level ?
I noticed this person doesn't give any background as to how THEY personally determined the cards authenticity that warranted subbing at that level. What convinced them a card that's one of the most counterfeited in existence was genuine? Love to hear this Craiglist persons "explanation" for their decision making process. I mean an in depth explanation
And whats more- they ( and other excuse makers) need to just stop with the BLAME DEFLECTION for not accepting personal responsibility.
Right in PSA's Terms of Service ( TOS)- that legal crap on every sub form people have to acknowledge before subbing is the below
It has very helpful and useful info imbedded if beginners and pros would just spend time READING it instead of skimming over it
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
HERE ARE THE REALLY IMPORTANT LINES everyone seems to skip over thate are contained in a few of the first TOS
,
,
,
UNDER LINE 2 ==
Customer represents and warrants that he/she has no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that any item submitted for grading has been altered in any way or is not genuine
UNDER LINE 3
Amount paid to PSA is NON-REFUNDABLE once the item begins the authentication and/or grading process
AGAIN- how did this person come to the conclusions they did that warrented the decisions they made ??
PSA has numerous website posts and stories about this card, there's tons of online posts about how to tell real vs fake
No reason at all in this day and age to make a poor decision on submitting this item
They get told up front about what PSA expects its submitters to understand about how it will get looked at, but expect to be charged up front once it leaves recieving . Payment for PSA's service is locked in and starts the second it hits " Research and Identification"- not the grading floor as a bunch of people seem to believe. It starts the second they begin performing the service of " authentication" before it moves on to the "grading process". They try and make this as clear as day but even experienced submitters seem not to understand it
From a personal perspective == I've submitted since 1997 to PSA. In all that time, from base items for registry sets, to multitudes of Mantle rookies and Top 200 hobby and MT Rushmore items, NOT EVEN ONCE have I ever paid in advance to have a card slabbed initially above any level above Regular.
Never been arrogant enough to believe I possessed the required expertise to pre-determine many high value cards worth - especially when the sports involved may not be in my wheelhouse. I equate this similar to buying a car. I'll listen to what others have said, research on my own time, and make what I hope is an informed personal decision when the time comes. But in no way am I an expert in knowing whether my choice was correct up front
In all that time-- I waited to be upcharged IF an item was authentic by PSA, and IF it was determined to be a specific grade that warrented the upcharge .
Gee whiz- like someone else said- we don't refund amateurs here in Vegas when they lost large sums because they were clueless on how to bet or play. A fool and their money are soon parted and were here
PSA's got no fault here at all - plenty of amateurs sub all the time, ignoring the dealer network or even regular submitters
Plenty of avenues could have been tapped that were not- its really sad
I feel for the person = but that's just a foolish display of poor decision making on display
@rbmn said:
If they think it is an 8 will they will grade with integrity and give the 8? Or will they give me a lesser grade because I >submitted it at a 6 and PSA will say, so be it - you get a 6?
In theory, the grader should not see what level (DV) you submitted the card at, so it should be graded "blindly", and then at the next stage it will get flagged as having too high of graded value compered to the DV it was submitted at, resulting in an upcharge.
The only real downside to this method is if PSA were to damage the card, the payout would max out at the "lower" dv you listed the card at, even if the damage occurs after the higher grade (say when encapsulated). Also, after you agree to the upcharge, if it gets damaged during packing or lost/stolen during shipping, then the T&C's say the upcharge does NOT result in a higher DV, thus you would still get payed out at the lower DV. Not sure if the upcharge is refunded in this situation, but would think so.
Comments
Also increases odds that submitter knew it was fake and had hoped it woudl pass muster by slipping it in at highest level.
IMHO in this particular case neither the Submitter or PSA has the moral high ground.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@JoeBanzai
Of all the funny parts in a very funny post, the part where you call me a liar then endorse the exact strategy was my personal favorite.
You have become very bitter and I am sad for you.
So, I hope it gets better for you.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
There is so much information available out there for the public to use to determine if a 1986 Fleer MJ is potentially fake. There are multiple forums out there where someone can post a picture and get a dozen replies within a day. There are multiple social media sites out there where one can post an 86 Fleer Jordan and get a dozen replies within a few hours. Yes, some replies will be good and others not so much. Unfortunately, because someone wants to believe what they have is real, they tend to believe the "send it to PSA" crowd and worse "they wont charge you if its fake" crowd. What PSA is doing is not bad business, they are simply protecting it. They did a job and expect to get paid for it. There were terms and conditions that the submitter agreed too. Being that the submitter was a business itself, they should know to read those.
Not calling you a liar.
Not bitter either.
Happy New Year!
Here’s the current values of the 86F Jordan:
https://www.psacard.com/auctionprices/basketball-cards/1986-fleer/michael-jordan/values/299576
A quick perusal of the Auction Prices Revealed link gave me the following:
1) PSA’s APR page shows several sales for the card in PSA 10 in 2023. The high sale is $192,000 and the low is $150,000. The appropriate service level is Premium 5 at a cost of $5000 (3 days) for cards valued up to $249,000.
2) In that same time frame, PSA 7’s sold in a range of about $4100 to $6100. The appropriate service level is Super Express (3 days) and the cost is $300 plus shipping for cards valued up to $4,999.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Thanks for posting this information.
I think $300.00 would be fair.
Well stated.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Beautiful woman will give you a subject matter expert opinion on how attractive you are for $5000.
-Excuse me. Yes, me. I am interested.
-Will that be cash or credit?
-Cash.
-You are hideously ugly. I am having trouble keeping my lunch down looking at you. I think in the dark I would still find you ugly. I would be surprised if any woman in the state found you attractive. You have a face that could melt glass and your body is nothing special either. With a suitcase of cash and a bottle of bourbon I would still not spend an evening with you. Seeing your face has ruined my life forever. Okay, that's it. Your evaluation is complete.
-I want my money back.
…are you saying a better educated customer could have been deemed ugly for $300 if they read the terms and conditions first?
😁
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
After spending about 90 seconds reading google results on the CL poster's name and pawn shop, it's clear to me that the folks at PSA are merely pawns in the cosmic forces finally aligning. It can often take a long time, but karma is still undefeated my friends.
I think I would have paid $40 for the bad news. But think that is it, a better educated customer. A lot of comps being made to other situations where if you go in clueless you get your nose taken off. You have to know how many fakes of this card there were and are floating around. If you are playing in this space you should know. Anybody with a color printer and the right cardboard stock could have had a 1986 Fleer Jordan that is well-centered with sharp corners. Then the 5K level? Really? Its absolutely not a 10. If its a 9, it feels like a lucky day gift. It may deserve an 8 but feels like a grade you would be very excited about with that card. Could see a 7. Who spends 5K for that if they understand the value of the cards? I cant tell if the guy just does not now how to take a clear complaint picture. But it kind of looks grainy and faded and not as clear even if part of it is not being able to take a picture in focus. There is some chipping on the left edge which makes it seem more legitimate but also not one of the finer examples. Chipping on the edges, 68/32 top to bottom centering. If it was in a 7 holder I'd like it. But as an 8 I'd probably feel it was not special and look elsewhere if an 8 was a target. I think there may also be some disappointment because the submitter may have felt there was some wink wink I'll pay the 5K fee and look at the grade I get as a big spender thing going on.
I mean PSA should answer the phone and make it easier to be contacted but noone wants to be contacted these days. Except SGC who wants to steal their customers. 🤣 But you know maybe there should be a special I spent 5K and got my face taken off line. Maybe a special line for a guy who paid $30 for some Starting Lineup figures and a Jordan basketball card who thought he was the shrewdest guy out there. Then they could say sorry, I mean seriously, sorry, it sucks to be you. It really does. We appreciate that. I hope tomorrow is better. But legally yeah, we performed the service we were paid for. We spent more time figuring out that yours was a piece of junk than the guys whose was real and was a 9. We will give you 90 seconds to speak and if you dont curse we wont hang up. We will answer two questions and then end the call. You aren't getting your money back. You just made a bad bad bad decision.
I've mentioned this before but tailoring it to this thread. To authenticate a card yourself like this one, you wouldn't necessarily need an expensive Michael Jordan card for comparison. Say you've got a potential PSA 9 Jordan. Well before blowing all that money sending it to PSA and it's a fake, learn how to spot a fake.
Buy a PSA 9 common of the same year, even an 8 or 7, or even a nice 6 would do. And study the yell out of that card. Look at it under magnification, look at every single aspect about it. Compare the card you intend on submitting to the authentic cards. Go ballistic if you have to with a black light to spot doctoring, and other methods. Feel the possible differences between the cards. You could buy a micrometer to measure the cardboard thickness if need be.
I'm not going to do a dissertation here about card authentication. There are many articles about that available on the internet. And right here with informative CU threads. Information is power, and information can and will not only save you money, but make you money. And help prevent yourself from making 5k mistakes, and even more money from buying worthless counterfeit cards.
But go ahead, be lazy, and play the blame game that some big bad corporation screwed you or whatever. When in reality it was ignorance that did it. Frankly if you're not willing to put in the time to learn, then you've got no business trying to buy and sell trading cards for a profit, or any other collectible for that matter. Yea, you could get lucky, but remember that luck favors the prepared.
Dude, in this current climate the best I'd hope for is a 7, but I'm sure it would come back as a 4 or 5!
Not the magnitude or price in question as the posters example. Many,many years ago I worked as a helper with a TV repair service. We did service calls, if you can imagine that. This was at a time TV sets still had dials to change the channel. Got a call from a senior lady. Could not get her Public TV channel. We arrive and noticed she had not turned the dial to activate the UHF option allowing Public TV to air. My boss did not have the heart to charge the lady a charge of any sort. This despite the travel time, time away from another call, and delaying service to other full paying customers. One could say it was on her to familiarize herself with the instructions of the working of the TV set and not our responsibility. We showed her how to get the channel. And needless to say thereafter we had a paying customer for life and she provided many great paying customers through her references. The moral of the story is up to your interpretation.
Imagine how many more great paying customers PSA could get by cutting people some slack!
Every pawn shop would probably start using them!
I'd be very curious to know how this plays out at the live expos. Person brings 5 cards in and 1 is a fake. Do they take their money for all 5 or is there a discount for the fake one? I'm sure this has happened to somebody before.
Nobody uses PSA any more because they're too busy.
😉
With a crowd of people watching...3 more in queue with Jordan rookies also...
Funny one,Yogi.
this right here. I couldnt have said it better. The great bulk of the $5k is the guarantee, not the physical work/time involved in authenticating/grading/encapsulating.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
they actually did half a job. they did the authentication part, they did not grade, encapsulate or guarantee the card.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
20% is just scary. It really concerns me when I think out 10 more years when I need to cash out.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Joe, I love the way you handled this! I hope 2024 is a great year for you!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
And you as well!
Interesting to read this thread. I have a Mantle 1960. Looks great to me. Hopefully an 8. But I am learning I should submit at maybe a 6 or lower and should never submit it at an 8 level, no matter how good that I think it looks. ($5,000 in value vs less than $1,000 in value, or a $300 fee vs a $75 fee). If they think it is an 8 will they will grade with integrity and give the 8? Or will they give me a lesser grade because I submitted it at a 6 and PSA will say, so be it - you get a 6?
Looking for comments from people who have been charged more because your card was deemed to be submitted at the wrong level. Sounds like it is good to submit all cards at a few grades below what I hope to get, and hope for as many upcharges as possible. Then PSA can get paid more for specific cards, if they give higher grades for the few cards in a submission that they grade at my desired level.
Is there PSA backlash if this is the regular approach to submissions, resulting in lets say 10% of submitted cards, being deemed to be undersubmitted.
I suggest you post photos of the front and back of the card here. Lots of good graders read the board and can give you their opinions on the grade.
Well, I collect Mickey and have received a few upcharges over the years so I hope I can help offfer some insight. And I agree posting photos will help provide further clarity.
So, I would recommend to someone who never submitted before to FIRST ask around at a show, a shop, on here and elsewhere for a ton of grade opinions and then submit that card (which is sight unseen at the moment but just giving you credit for an estimation on your personal 8 assessment and value) at either the Regular-10 day-$75 service level with a value up to $1499 (which easily covers a APR PSA 6 value) or at the Express-$150-3 Day level with a value of up to $2500 (slightly under APR PSA 7 value).
In the current climate, I’d personally do Express and if I got an 8 (or better) I’d expect to get an upcharge. And I say this based on my own experience and what I’ve learned, which is considerable, from the posters here.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
@rbmn
By the way, I love the 1960 Topps Mantle; I sent this one in myself hoping for a 6…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Mistake is with this person =
They subbed at a Premium 5 level based on WHAT available info they had available to them that justified using that level ?
I noticed this person doesn't give any background as to how THEY personally determined the cards authenticity that warranted subbing at that level. What convinced them a card that's one of the most counterfeited in existence was genuine? Love to hear this Craiglist persons "explanation" for their decision making process. I mean an in depth explanation
And whats more- they ( and other excuse makers) need to just stop with the BLAME DEFLECTION for not accepting personal responsibility.
Right in PSA's Terms of Service ( TOS)- that legal crap on every sub form people have to acknowledge before subbing is the below
It has very helpful and useful info imbedded if beginners and pros would just spend time READING it instead of skimming over it
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
HERE ARE THE REALLY IMPORTANT LINES everyone seems to skip over thate are contained in a few of the first TOS
,
,
,
UNDER LINE 2 ==
Customer represents and warrants that he/she has no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that any item submitted for grading has been altered in any way or is not genuine
UNDER LINE 3
Amount paid to PSA is NON-REFUNDABLE once the item begins the authentication and/or grading process
AGAIN- how did this person come to the conclusions they did that warrented the decisions they made ??
PSA has numerous website posts and stories about this card, there's tons of online posts about how to tell real vs fake
No reason at all in this day and age to make a poor decision on submitting this item
They get told up front about what PSA expects its submitters to understand about how it will get looked at, but expect to be charged up front once it leaves recieving . Payment for PSA's service is locked in and starts the second it hits " Research and Identification"- not the grading floor as a bunch of people seem to believe. It starts the second they begin performing the service of " authentication" before it moves on to the "grading process". They try and make this as clear as day but even experienced submitters seem not to understand it
From a personal perspective == I've submitted since 1997 to PSA. In all that time, from base items for registry sets, to multitudes of Mantle rookies and Top 200 hobby and MT Rushmore items, NOT EVEN ONCE have I ever paid in advance to have a card slabbed initially above any level above Regular.
Never been arrogant enough to believe I possessed the required expertise to pre-determine many high value cards worth - especially when the sports involved may not be in my wheelhouse. I equate this similar to buying a car. I'll listen to what others have said, research on my own time, and make what I hope is an informed personal decision when the time comes. But in no way am I an expert in knowing whether my choice was correct up front
In all that time-- I waited to be upcharged IF an item was authentic by PSA, and IF it was determined to be a specific grade that warrented the upcharge .
Gee whiz- like someone else said- we don't refund amateurs here in Vegas when they lost large sums because they were clueless on how to bet or play. A fool and their money are soon parted and were here
PSA's got no fault here at all - plenty of amateurs sub all the time, ignoring the dealer network or even regular submitters
Plenty of avenues could have been tapped that were not- its really sad
I feel for the person = but that's just a foolish display of poor decision making on display
Personal opinion as always
In theory, the grader should not see what level (DV) you submitted the card at, so it should be graded "blindly", and then at the next stage it will get flagged as having too high of graded value compered to the DV it was submitted at, resulting in an upcharge.
The only real downside to this method is if PSA were to damage the card, the payout would max out at the "lower" dv you listed the card at, even if the damage occurs after the higher grade (say when encapsulated). Also, after you agree to the upcharge, if it gets damaged during packing or lost/stolen during shipping, then the T&C's say the upcharge does NOT result in a higher DV, thus you would still get payed out at the lower DV. Not sure if the upcharge is refunded in this situation, but would think so.